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Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis

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Old
08-04-2010, 12:12 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
Those "premium seats" you appear to be referring to (Commerica Club) are on one end of the mezzanine level. Only real amenity there is the bar and lounge area behind them. The first rows of the upper level have virtually the same view.
Actually the row A Comerica seats that were reduced in price were at ice level. ~125 seats in total. All season prices for seats in the actual Club remain unchanged. Gate prices in the club went up ~13%.

So everyone has real numbers to look at, here's the pricing chart comparing the past two seasons with approx # of seats in each section:

SECTION # of SEATS2009 GATE PRICE2010 GATE PRICE%INC<%DEC>2009 STH Price2010 STH Price%INC<%DEC>
Row A Toyota Club125$330.00 $354.007.27% $250.00$255.002%
Row A Comerica Club125$300.00$242.00-19.33%$200.00$150.00<25%>
Row B Toyota Club125$255.00$247.00-3.14%$175.00$180.002.85%
Rows C-G Toyota Club100$180.00$201.0011.67%$130.00$135.003.85%
Club Center Straights2000$100.00$112.0012.00%$80.00$80.000%
Comerica Club350$80.00$91.0013.75%$60.00$60.000%
LL Corners3800$80.00$75.00-6.25%$60.00$45.00<25%>
LL Ends4500$60.00$75.0025.00%$40.00$45.0012.50%
UL Center1000$40.00$59.0047.50%$20.00$25.0025%
UL Sides and Ends4200$30.00$36.0020.00%$15.00 $15.00

The other premium seats that were reduced are now included in Club Center Straights and Lower Level Corners and Ends. Again, total is ~500 premium seats that dropped in price.


Last edited by RR: 08-04-2010 at 12:29 PM.
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08-04-2010, 12:25 PM
  #477
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This probably explains why there is so little interest in the pro league in Arizona. Until an area can support a/any sport's infrastructure, it strikes me as a long shot that it can support the Big Show.
Phoenix incarnations in the IHL, WHA, WHL, ECHL, CHL, and PHL, so it's not like hockey was completely off Phoenix's radar until the Coyotes showed up.

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08-04-2010, 12:30 PM
  #478
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The irony of a Phoenix Coyote fan pontificating that cities shouldn't gain teams at the expense of other cities is priceless.
Phoenix didn't politic for a hockey team. Winnipeg was slated to go to the Twin Cities in MN and the deal fell through. The owner of the team had no where to put his team when Jerry Colangelo invited him to look at his arena in Phoenix. We got a gift which we weren't expecting. Don't go blaming Phoenix for the loss of the Jets. Winnipeg lost the Jets without any outside interference from Phoenix.

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08-04-2010, 12:32 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
In response to the person who suggested taking kids to a AHL, ECHL or major junior game should the Coyotes move....

The only ice hockey teams left within an hour's drive will be adult league and club hockey.

The closest AHL team is in Texas. (And the reasons why there won't be a relocated AHL team have been specified before.)

The closest ECHL team is in Las Vegas.

The closest major junior team is like Iowa (USHL) or Portland, Oregon (WHL).
Where's the nearest NCAA team? Not ASU?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OEL View Post
The discounts you refer to affect ~500 of the 17,000+ seats in the arena.
Well, lower level corners dropped 25% to $45, which are likely more than 500. But ignoring that, 500 top shelf premium seats had substantial discounts. Like I said in my original comment, I would hope that season ticket sales picked up as a result.

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08-04-2010, 12:53 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
In response to the person who suggested taking kids to a AHL, ECHL or major junior game should the Coyotes move....

The only ice hockey teams left within an hour's drive will be adult league and club hockey.

The closest AHL team is in Texas. (And the reasons why there won't be a relocated AHL team have been specified before.)

The closest ECHL team is in Las Vegas.

The closest major junior team is like Iowa (USHL) or Portland, Oregon (WHL).
What about these guys?

Looks like a minor pro team to me.

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08-04-2010, 12:53 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by OthmarAmmann View Post
Where's the nearest NCAA team? Not ASU?
Division I - Denver/Colorado, WCHA

Division II - ASU
http://achahockey.org/index.php?league_id=1061

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08-04-2010, 01:03 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by OthmarAmmann View Post

Where's the nearest NCAA team? Not ASU?
Ya, ASU plays out of Tempe' & is ranked 9th in the country. UofA plays out of Tucson & has the 3rd highest ranked attendance nationwide.

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08-04-2010, 01:08 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
Phoenix didn't politic for a hockey team. Winnipeg was slated to go to the Twin Cities in MN and the deal fell through. The owner of the team had no where to put his team when Jerry Colangelo invited him to look at his arena in Phoenix. We got a gift which we weren't expecting. Don't go blaming Phoenix for the loss of the Jets. Winnipeg lost the Jets without any outside interference from Phoenix.
That reminds me. Can someone tell me again why the Yotes didn't end up sharing an arena with the Suns? It seems odd that Colangelo would have the owners look at Phoenix, but not have them share the arena.

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08-04-2010, 01:09 PM
  #484
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Ya, ASU plays out of Tempe' & is ranked 9th in the country. UofA plays out of Tucson & has the 3rd highest ranked attendance nationwide.
I go to the U of A games when I visit my college kid. Great fun! Fellas, this is virgen territory for Hockey. Phoenix was just a hot dusty cow town until the advent of air conditioning in the 50's. It will take time and effort to grow the sport, and so far all indications are that hockey starting at the kids level is taking off. This is a long term investment for the NHL and hopefully there will be a team to see when these hockey kids start earning a paycheck and spending money on sporting events over the next 10 to 15 years.

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08-04-2010, 01:13 PM
  #485
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That reminds me. Can someone tell me again why the Yotes didn't end up sharing an arena with the Suns? It seems odd that Colangelo would have the owners look at Phoenix, but not have them share the arena.
Colangelo kept all the parking, advertising and concession revenue streams. Also there are at least 3000 partially blocked view seats in AWA due to overhangs.
The only revenue stream the Coyotes had was for tickets.

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08-04-2010, 02:02 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
I go to the U of A games when I visit my college kid. Great fun! Fellas, this is virgen territory for Hockey. Phoenix was just a hot dusty cow town until the advent of air conditioning in the 50's. It will take time and effort to grow the sport, and so far all indications are that hockey starting at the kids level is taking off. This is a long term investment for the NHL and hopefully there will be a team to see when these hockey kids start earning a paycheck and spending money on sporting events over the next 10 to 15 years.


Long term investment? Scottsrocks58...long term investments make money over time. 15 years of losses usually doesnt mean a 10-15 year extension on the product. it usually means "sell,sell,sell"

This scenario is much different, but the fact is, no viable ownership group has stepped up in Phoenix. JR might have the best deal for the NHL, but its the worst for the COG.

Ellman and his Westgate is losing money and some have gone in to foreclosure, so which bank would sign a loan for IEH to borrow money based on a CFD for a dying business sector.

TV contracts, NFL/NBA lock outs forthcoming? Well ESPN and the other wont sign long term with the NHL because of lock outs. Lock outs last up to a year, usually less. So why fill the void with an expensive product that people in the southern states rarely follow as is.

In Canada, TSN, Sportsnet and CBC filled the hockey void with a cheap alternative ( pro poker ). Reason being, the NHL could of come out of the lockout at any time, so the poker guys signed on cheap with the option of being dropped at any minute because of the NHL.

ESPN would do the same, perhaps poker, or college sports or maybe roller derby, who knows, but the NHL is not their only choice.

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08-04-2010, 02:32 PM
  #487
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There is only one number that matters..... and that is, can the team break even or turn a profit?

The one thing Winnipeg has today over Phoenix and a lot of other cities is the fact that the group that wants to own the team also owns the building. If an NHL team in Winnipeg has to pay rent, it will never work, as history has shown. Eveyone says the Jets left because the city was not going to build a new building. A new building in Winnipeg meant nothing unless the team was going to own it, and that was not the case until TNSE came along and built thier own building.

To me, this is the one thing lacking in the Coyotes situation, that brings into question if the team can survive. If the CoG wants to keep the Coyotes they can solve the problem in one step...give control of the arena to the hockey team. Let the hockey team keep all the revenue generated. Now everyone will say, but then the CoG is out $160 million or whatever is on the books for the arena. Potentially, but not guarenteed. Instead of the team paying say $4 million in rent each year, they can run the arena, and any money above what it takes to break even, would be given to the CoG to pay back the building. Now some years the CoG may get nothing, but in other years if the team goes deep into the playoffs, they could get a pile of money.

Not saying this is a perfect solution, but if the CoG wants the team to stay, they may have to give something up bigger than CFDs and subsidies.

The same situation is happening in Edm. Do the Oilers need a new building? Not really. All they need is control of the one they have. The Oilers also only get revenue on hockey nights. The reason they want a bigger building is because that is their only revenue source.

I think for a lot of hockey teams to survive long term, they need control of the buildings they are in, or owned by the same people.

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08-04-2010, 03:08 PM
  #488
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http://theglobeandmail.com/sports/ho...rticle1661801/

Mirtle on the Return of Reinsdorf

Quote:
One source told me last week that Ice Edge's bid had been "dead" for weeks and that commissioner Gary Bettman has brought Reinsdorf – long the NHL's choice in this mess – back into the mix. Three months ago, it was Reinsdorf's bid that had passed on.
Given the difficulties with Ice Edge, however, the city could very well be more desperate than they were in May.
The main issue with Ice Edge's bid relates to concerns over their ability to finance the purchase; the main issue with Reinsdorf, however, is that he is looking for the city to heavily offset the team's losses and provide an outclause after five years.
Reading the tea leaves here, and assuming no other party enters the fray with a more favourable deal, my sense is that we'll see this all come down to a very difficult choice for Glendale: Either help subsidize the team as part of Reinsdorf's bid or allow it to pack up and leave.
457 days since bankruptcy filing.

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08-04-2010, 03:27 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://theglobeandmail.com/sports/ho...rticle1661801/

Mirtle on the Return of Reinsdorf



457 days since bankruptcy filing.
Time to crunch some numbers, wouldn't you say? I would need the max possible outlay from Glendale to Reinsdorf over the next 5 years plus the Glendale payments on the arena minus the lease payments from the Coyotes and the maximum amount of sales tax revenue from the arena and Westgate anticipated if the Coyotes remain for 5 years on one side of the ledger. On the other side of the ledger I would need the yearly payment Glendale makes on the arena bonds multiplied by 5 minus the maximum anticipated sales tax receipts for the arena and Westgate without the Coyotes for 5 years.

Given the competition from the AWA, Phoenix Convention Ctr and the U of P domed stadium I don't anticipate a sizable increase in revenues from added travelling shows from the previous 5 years regardless of whether the Coyotes stay.

Anyone want to have a go at it?

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08-04-2010, 03:27 PM
  #490
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there are questions as to whether the city even can subsidize the team that heavily given the presence of watchdog organizations like the Goldwater Institute
So, if they can't even do that - then there is only one other option???

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08-04-2010, 03:29 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley;

457 days since bankruptcy filing.
Let's all remember that the bankruptcy was contrived. It was sold to Moyes by Balsillie and Rodier as a way of getting more money through a relocation than the sale to Reinsdorf which was already on the table. The Coyotes had no creditors who were late in receiving payment at any time.

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08-04-2010, 03:32 PM
  #492
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Welp.

I can see why IEH wanted exclusivity now.

Glendale needs to bite the bullet or something.

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08-04-2010, 03:33 PM
  #493
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So, if they can't even do that - then there is only one other option???
Goldwater/State Law or not, I don't think direct subsidies are going to fly. Simply not politically expedient.

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08-04-2010, 03:34 PM
  #494
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So, if they can't even do that - then there is only one other option???
That or the "other potential owners interested" step in.

IEH is probably going to take a long time to work out their deal, and Reinsdorf could have easily swooped in instead.

Of course nothing's happened in a couple weeks though, didn't they all just return from vacation?

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08-04-2010, 03:42 PM
  #495
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Goldwater again? The state supreme court's interpretation of the gift clause is that the municipality must show a direct benefit, and not consider jobs or increased sales tax revenue, etc.

Well, if the Glendale subsidy is less than the lease money which Reinsdorf pays to the city, there is a direct benefit. Without the agreement the core tenant of the arena walks (Thank you TNSE and NHL - a stroke of genius having that contention of Glendale confirmed). Lease payments, even subsidized, are a direct benefit to Glendale of having a tenant over no lease payments due to no available tenant.

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08-04-2010, 03:48 PM
  #496
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Because in 96 Phoenix was totally looming over Winnipeg waiting for every move and saying that they didn't deserve a team, right?
But Phoenix wasn't looming over Winnipeg..... (Minneapolis) Minnesota was. Phoenix just ended up with them.


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08-04-2010, 04:02 PM
  #497
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Tsk tsk headsigh. Prescotts' a nifty place with plenty of history. Ya, Id take my kid their & show him a good time; on "Whiskey Row".
Sounds like somebody's been to a certain Midget tournament in the "real" Prescott...

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08-04-2010, 04:05 PM
  #498
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
Goldwater again? The state supreme court's interpretation of the gift clause is that the municipality must show a direct benefit, and not consider jobs or increased sales tax revenue, etc.

Well, if the Glendale subsidy is less than the lease money which Reinsdorf pays to the city, there is a direct benefit. Without the agreement the core tenant of the arena walks (Thank you TNSE and NHL - a stroke of genius having that contention of Glendale confirmed). Lease payments, even subsidized, are a direct benefit to Glendale of having a tenant over no lease payments due to no available tenant.
Why on earth would the NHL want to wait another year on this to see what the court rules? I doubt Glendale goes there, anyhow. Council has probably gotten legal advice saying they just can't do what Reinsdorf is demanding. Assume that's why Reinsdorf walked in the spring.

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08-04-2010, 04:20 PM
  #499
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Why on earth would the NHL want to wait another year on this to see what the court rules? I doubt Glendale goes there, anyhow. Council has probably gotten legal advice saying they just can't do what Reinsdorf is demanding. Assume that's why Reinsdorf walked in the spring.
Pure speculation. Perhaps Glendale CoG went to a palm reader who told them to walk on Reinsdorf. As to the NHL, they seem dead set against moving the Coyotes, otherwise the team would have been gone long before the contrived bankruptcy.

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08-04-2010, 04:23 PM
  #500
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Stranger & stranger. If IEH's been dead in the water for weeks according to yet another un-named source, why are they continuing to twitter & tweet, why is their PR Flak giving quotes (just last week)?. Secondly, if indeed the NHL is adamant that the team stay in Glendale, they are going to have to step up to the plate, work with Glendale & whatever buyer they can secure & do something about their asking price, which is far more than the franchise is worth. If they cant/wont do that, either through an extension to their own line of credit assumable by the new owner or some other creative formula, a sale to keep the team in place will be next to impossible. At this stage in the game, one can only hope, if your a resident of Phoenix & fan, that whomever these "Mystery Buyers" might be hasten to the rescue, work the middle ground between IE/JR & the NHL/COG.

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