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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis

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Old
08-04-2010, 11:38 PM
  #576
Motown Beatdown
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There is a 2 word phrase i think that accurately describes this situation.

One is Cluster, the other will earn me a warning

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Old
08-04-2010, 11:42 PM
  #577
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And thank you, sir, for your well wishes.
What are you talking about? Not wishing anybody "well" or "ill" - it is what it is.

 
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08-04-2010, 11:43 PM
  #578
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I noted this earlier LadyStanley. You referring to John Breslow who IS aligned with IceEdge?. His money is entirely tied up in Trusts. Were' talking over $250M. As you know, he was a minority share holder when Moyes' owned the team. Problem; he has great intentions but no access to capital,
That was the 3rd guy. Never did hear who the fourth party was.

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08-04-2010, 11:43 PM
  #579
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Oh Dado. To quote Peter, Paul & Mary; "When will ye' ever learn".
The circle being transcribed by this merry go round is converging to a point. I'm sure there will be a few more emotional bumps and downs along the way, but IMO the final flight path for Relo Air is now set.

 
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08-04-2010, 11:44 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
And thank you, sir, for your well wishes. Either way, the NHL doesn't want a team in Winnipeg at this point in time. Perhaps in a few years.
As a "Bolthole" it'd work in a pinch. Though last time I checked, Lawyers, like Bettman & Daly, for example, arent keen on dressing up Mr. Mouse in an Emporers' Drapings. "I'm in a New York State of Mind",,,, You?.

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08-04-2010, 11:57 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
IMO the final flight path for Relo Air is now set.
Man, you underestimate Will, Determination, Hutzpah, Divine Intervention, and count your chickens before they hatch. You just dont know a thing about the anomaly thats' Arizona.

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08-05-2010, 06:34 AM
  #582
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Because I had a direct say in the Coyotes moving to Phoenix, right? I didn't even live in Phoenix until a few years after they moved down here. I don't even think Phoenix was the first option for the Jets were they? Didn't Minnesota get a chance first and it fell through?

Plus, I know what its like to almost lose your team (Penguins), and honestly I wouldn't wish that upon anyone.

Don't automatically assume I was all for the Coyotes coming to Phoenix just because I'm taking the side of "leave Phoenix where they are and let stable ownership who cares about hockey try to build a better fanbase and team"
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The irony of a Phoenix Coyote fan pontificating that cities shouldn't gain teams at the expense of other cities is priceless.
Note your non sequitur response to my single line statement. I'm not assuming anything by simply stating that I found it ironic that a fan of a team (one that exists solely due relocation) claimed that cities shouldn't gain teams by relocation. If you cannot see the dichotomy in your argument then I am wasting my time.

By the way, apparently the fans in Winnipeg had no direct say in the Jets moving to Phoenix, either, so I fail to grasp your point.

It is actually quite incredible how many parallels there are between the current position the Coyotes find themselves in and the situation in Winnipeg at the time the Jets exited. Both teams basically had/have local government making ill advised financial outlays in an attempt to postpone the inevitable while they search frantically for new ownership.

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08-05-2010, 07:30 AM
  #583
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So, IEH has no money and we are back to the CFD, JR and Goldwater? Did I miss anything?
We're all 458 days older?

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08-05-2010, 08:51 AM
  #584
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And thank you, sir, for your well wishes. Either way, the NHL doesn't want a team in Winnipeg at this point in time. Perhaps in a few years.
I think it is perhaps more accurate to say that the NHL would much prefer to keep their franchises in their existing cities, rather than relocating one to Winnipeg. However, if there is a relocation of a franchise to Winnipeg the timing of a move will depend entirely on when it can no longer remain in its existing location. The Coyotes' situation in Glendale is the most publicly tenuous right now, and Bettman has publicly stated that he has a "bona fide" offer from the TNSE group that he is prepared to accept if negotiations in Glendale don't work out. This is not part of some sentimental journey by Bettman to get a team back in Winnipeg (and/or QC), but a financial issue. The NHL sees that it might need to relocate the Coyotes quickly and need to recoup all of their investment so far (>$160 million). Their only viable short-term option that anyone can point to with any confidence is Winnipeg.

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08-05-2010, 08:58 AM
  #585
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We're all 458 days older?
Yep.

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08-05-2010, 09:06 AM
  #586
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There is a 2 word phrase i think that accurately describes this situation.

One is Cluster, the other will earn me a warning
One word.

IRRITAINMENT: Entertainment and media spectacles that are
annoying but you find yourself unable to stop watching them.

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08-05-2010, 09:15 AM
  #587
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I think it is perhaps more accurate to say that the NHL would much prefer to keep their franchises in their existing cities, rather than relocating one to Winnipeg. However, if there is a relocation of a franchise to Winnipeg the timing of a move will depend entirely on when it can no longer remain in its existing location. The Coyotes' situation in Glendale is the most publicly tenuous right now, and Bettman has publicly stated that he has a "bona fide" offer from the TNSE group that he is prepared to accept if negotiations in Glendale don't work out. This is not part of some sentimental journey by Bettman to get a team back in Winnipeg (and/or QC), but a financial issue. The NHL sees that it might need to relocate the Coyotes quickly and need to recoup all of their investment so far (>$160 million). Their only viable short-term option that anyone can point to with any confidence is Winnipeg.
And it would be short term, until Thomson could relocate the franchise yet again to So Ontario where he could actually turn a profit. All this smoke about Thomson's money, his arena doesn't change the fact that there isn't much profit in Winnipeg. It's one thing to carry a team in a market that has unrealized potential. It's another to carry one for "old time's sake".

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08-05-2010, 09:44 AM
  #588
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And it would be short term, until Thomson could relocate the franchise yet again to So Ontario where he could actually turn a profit. All this smoke about Thomson's money, his arena doesn't change the fact that there isn't much profit in Winnipeg. It's one thing to carry a team in a market that has unrealized potential. It's another to carry one for "old time's sake".
I see. So is Thomson planning to "relocate" his substantial real estate investments in Winnipeg (including the arena and surrounding properties) to So. Ontario as well? The idea of bringing an NHL team to Winnipeg is not just about the franchise, but about the arena and ancillary businesses and real estate around the arena. Sort of like Westgate in Glendale, only with rich businessmen, less financial difficulties and a privately owned arena with much less debt that turns a big profit. Just as Glendale will apparently consider trying to raise up to $190 million in subsidies over 5 years just for the pleasure of having an "anchor tenant", don't you think that Chipman and Thomson might see some upside opportunities for their arena and business properties in Winnipeg?

Are you just making this stuff up?

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08-05-2010, 09:54 AM
  #589
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This is getting pathetic
Bashing Winnipeg because of sour grapes.
Don't blame Winnipeg that Phoenix is going to lose their team.
Blame your poor owner and poor fan support.
Just like Winnipeg cant blame Phoenix for losing it's team because of it's aging arena and no support to build a new one

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Old
08-05-2010, 09:54 AM
  #590
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
And it would be short term, until Thomson could relocate the franchise yet again to So Ontario where he could actually turn a profit. All this smoke about Thomson's money, his arena doesn't change the fact that there isn't much profit in Winnipeg. It's one thing to carry a team in a market that has unrealized potential. It's another to carry one for "old time's sake".
How do you know there is no money to be made in Winnipeg? Have you ever been to Winnipeg? Do you have documents that none of us know about? Do you have direct contact with Mark Chipman? Do you have their internal reports about potential revenue/expenses? I'm going to go out on a limb here but I'm pretty sure if Chipman/Thomson are going after a NHL team for Winnipeg they are pretty sure it can turn a profit.

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08-05-2010, 09:57 AM
  #591
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Originally Posted by advil View Post
IEH is done. They don't have the money.

Reinsdorf is out. He has the money, but he doesn't want to lose it. Sure he has a great relationship with Phoenix, but he has an even better relationship with his wallet.

Every private investor thinking of buying into this mess must be looking at what happened to the last guy . . . Jerry Moyes.

This team is done in Phoenix. They're going through the motions now, and will soon start dividing up the blame.

Winnipeg is the obvious destination. The poison dwarf seems to take pleasure in that.
Well said, this is what I'm starting to think as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if the story of COG being in discussions with "three additional groups" turned out to be completely fabricated, including the part about Reinsdorf.

If there were truly ever any groups other than IEH still out there (especially Reinsdorf), why on Earth would COG ever grant IEH exclusivity (or what they believed would be exclusivity) 60 days ago? All of us here figured that IEH were clowns and in the end we were proven to be correct. Clearly COG must have had a greater insight into their financing (or lackthereof) and flaws, but they still decided to give them a chance out of desperation.

I'm thinking that COG/Frisoni's statement about IEH not providing the proper finances was a move to put the blame squarely on IEH, and not on COG. After all, if it had come out that IEH never had the money (as people like Shoalts speculated for months), it would have reflected badly on both IEH and COG for putting their faith in them over Reinsdorf (especially with 25 million on the line). Then comes the story that COG is in talks with three additional groups, which further takes any blame away from COG, as they're seen exhausing all options (including Reinsdorf).

In the end, I think COG realizes that the team will have to relocate, and they're trying to avoid being blamed for it when it does eventually happen.

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08-05-2010, 10:35 AM
  #592
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Sadly, I think it's over for Glendale and the Coyotes. EIH is dead in the water and Reinsdorf is not willing to put up his own money. This thing is way beyond salvageable an no potential owner with an ounce of common sense will get involved unless it includes the word 'relocation'.

The Coyotes will move and become the [insert city and team name] and Phoenix may get an expansion or relocation franchise down the road if the NHL does in fact believe that it's a viable market.

Personally, I think the COG shot themselves in the foot when they built an arena for a team that never made a dime in a non-traditional market. And now they're stuck. I think it was always about Westgate more than it was about the Coyotes. Someone on here said it best a while back: Glendale is not trying to save hockey, they are trying to save a tennant. Period.

Just my 2 cents...

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08-05-2010, 10:38 AM
  #593
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Until somebody from the COG can solidly convince some rich guy/gal that there's money to be made owning the Phx Coyotes, there will be no new "local" owner. Rich guys don't get rich by throwing away money. A profit could POSSIBLY be made if the conditions are just right...but the odds against seem too steep. A weeping 6-year old kid will not be enough to make a billionaire throw away his money. Philanthropy does happen from time to time, but unless there's a rich hockey fan in the Phx area, that ain't happening.

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08-05-2010, 10:38 AM
  #594
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Blame your poor owner and poor fan support.
hold your colour. PHX isn't leaving yet and probably nothing will be finalized for this upcoming season. If phoenix moves it'll be in 11-12 and a lot of things can happen in that time.

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08-05-2010, 11:03 AM
  #595
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I guess there really isn't anything to do but go on as if everything is normal, if one would succomb to all the speculating about who's in and who's out of the purchase, will the Coyotes move or will they stay or will they move in five years, it's enough to drive ya insane, no?

Although, going that route, would in fact be setting ones self up for a big case of phycological heart ache if in fact the worst case scenario did happen and after burrying ones head in the sand for the past while, it would certainly be a recipe for emotional disaster.

"O, woe is me, To have seen what I have seen, see what I see!"
William Shakespeare, "Hamlet"

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08-05-2010, 11:05 AM
  #596
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If there are in fact other potential owners out there, plus maybe Reinsdorf now, they are all going to stand around until December, when the CoG is ready to give it all up to keep the team.

It's funny, but the $25 million that the CoG put up to cover costs, is delaying the sale of this team. If I was buying the Coyotes and I was responsible for losses, I would have made sure that the team was bought and paid for long before the upcoming season starts. Everyday that goes by, potential ticket sales and corporate sales are also disappearing, and once the season starts, you can kiss all those sales goodbye until the 2011-12 season.

BUT, because you have the CoG covering costs, there is no rush to purchase the team now. In fact I think this is a major stumbling block to negotiations. Lets say the team is sold in December... does the new owner have to reimburse the CoG for losses that they have covered up until Dec? ... does the new owner assume losses from this point on? ..... why should the new owner have to reimburse the CoG for losses, when it was the CoG's inability to get a lease in place that drove the losses to be higher than if a sale took place in June 2010?

Just throwing thoughts out.

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08-05-2010, 11:45 AM
  #597
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hold your colour. PHX isn't leaving yet and probably nothing will be finalized for this upcoming season. If phoenix moves it'll be in 11-12 and a lot of things can happen in that time.
I never said they were going to leave tomorrow.
At this stage barring an act of god this team is destined to leave.
After the 10-11 season is completed is my guess

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Old
08-05-2010, 11:56 AM
  #598
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For the record, I was born and raised in Winnipeg. I left after graduating university. I have nothing against the city... I actually think it's a really nice place. Hell, I was even at the Bombers/Esks game the weekend before last.

The fact is though that the city has very little in the way of name recognition. The league has to fight for each pair of eyes, and Winnipeg doesn't bring anything to the table in that regard. The Northeast is supposed to be solid hockey territory in the U.S., and each club is a solid 4th place in it's respective market here (lower in New York of course... and I get the feeling that the Red Bulls are actually starting to beat the Islanders). I thought it was hilarious watching the finals on Versus: They were advertising AAA ball and Tour de France.

Nothing against Winnipeg. They just don't fit in to the strategy. If things don't work out in Phoenix, the team will be in Houston or KC or somewhere else. Folding the team would draw just as many eyes as a team in Winnipeg, but it would also deepen the talent pool.

im opposite i moved from NYC to winnipeg at age 36 with my family of 6 in tow.
one of the reasons....hockey. it is a hockey mecca. and the nhl could exploit that. again like a gren bay in the nhl.

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08-05-2010, 12:07 PM
  #599
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Sorry, tend to be abstract. Gary Bettman grew up on Long Island during the Isles Glory Years. He's short (Napolean Complex). He's a ***** (obtuse). I'm liking him.
he grew up in brooklyn. which is geographically ON long island...its worlds away.

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08-05-2010, 12:14 PM
  #600
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I feel like we are chasing our tails in these discussions. The usual Arizona fans lash out at Winnipeg ignoring the facts of why we lost the team. I guess they are bitter because as was mentioned we don't blaim Phoenix for the loss of the Jets, it was the situation. BUT the people in Arizona can't seem to admit the same. It's not Winnipeg that harmed the Coyotes. It was poor ownership, bad arena location and deal, lack of hockey fan base and the economy.

If the business model worked in Phoenix, there would be people lining up to buy the team. There is still a very tiny chance that a white night will save the day so don't lash out at Winnipeg with statements that make little sense.

Thomson is not moving a team to Winnipeg and then to Hamilton. If he wants Hamilton he will sell off his ownership in Winnipeg and either move another team there or purchase an expansion team. He's helping a business partner out in Winnipeg because he has ties to Winnipeg and has been successful in business with Chipman. Simple as that.

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