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Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis

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Old
08-05-2010, 12:18 PM
  #601
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I see. [...]

Are you just making this stuff up?
Which part? The part about posting that Winnipeg is too small to fit into the apparant strategy of the NHL to place teams in big markets, or the part about So. Ontario being a huge market and gold mine when a team finally lands there and, like most people who are out to make a profit, Thomson would move the team there if he were allowed?

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08-05-2010, 12:23 PM
  #602
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Which part? The part about posting that Winnipeg is too small to fit into the apparant strategy of the NHL to place teams in big markets, or the part about So. Ontario being a huge market and gold mine when a team finally lands there and, like most people who are out to make a profit, Thomson would move the team there if he were allowed?

There'd be a little more competition for him if this indeed ever got approval.

Let's not even go there.

 
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08-05-2010, 12:40 PM
  #603
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And it would be short term, until Thomson could relocate the franchise yet again to So Ontario where he could actually turn a profit. All this smoke about Thomson's money, his arena doesn't change the fact that there isn't much profit in Winnipeg. It's one thing to carry a team in a market that has unrealized potential. It's another to carry one for "old time's sake".
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Which part? The part about posting that Winnipeg is too small to fit into the apparant strategy of the NHL to place teams in big markets, or the part about So. Ontario being a huge market and gold mine when a team finally lands there and, like most people who are out to make a profit, Thomson would move the team there if he were allowed?
The part about Thomson only interested in buying the team for Winnipeg so he could move it to S. Ontario. Does he currently own any part of an arena is S. Ontario? Does he have other business properties that would benefit greatly from an NHL franchise in the vicinity in S. Ontario? Thomson is a rich and successful businessman. I doubt that he is sentimental about Winnipeg or the "return of the Jets". However, over the past number of years he has been investing in properties in downtown Winnipeg, including the MTS Centre. My interpretation of his interest in joining the TNSE in a bid for an NHL team is to enhance the value of his existing investments in Winnipeg. How exactly is that served by moving the team away from Winnipeg again in the future? It would greatly reduce the value of his other investments (i.e. the arena and other real estate holdings in downtown Winnipeg).

I agree with you that operating profits can be made operating an NHL franchise in S. Ontario, but there still needs to be a justification for the initial investment to purchase the team and build or refurbish an arena. Beyond a certain price point it doesn't make economic sense to put a team anywhere, even in S. Ontario. Remember, even Balsillie had an upper limit (around $250 million) for his bid to buy and move the Coyotes to Hamilton. Presumably, he thought that going beyond that did not make economic sense. I think that if you want to speculate about who might be interested in a future franchise in S. Ontario, look for those who invest in an arena and surrounding real estate.

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08-05-2010, 12:50 PM
  #604
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It's not about where Thomson lives, it's about where his business interests are.

He's a partner in TNSE, which owns the MTS Center in Winnipeg. Therefore, it is in his best interest to own an NHL team which plays there.

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08-05-2010, 12:55 PM
  #605
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This thread isn't about if Winnipeg is a big enough market or not (there is a seperate discussion on that), it is about if the Coyotes are viable.

It should be simple:

For Sale ( too good to pass up )

One NHL franchise to play its games in the Jobing.com arena, location Glendale AZ.

The new owner assumes the current lease and all financial obligations that come with it.

Price: $160 million

According to the NHL, this should not be a problem. So I ask whomever.... if the slate was wiped clean and the last 2 years never happened, could the Phoenix Coyotes exist in thier current market with thier current lease? If what the NHL thinks about the Phoenix market being such a gold mine, why does the NHL having such a hard time selling the team? If it was all upside, there would be dozens of groups trying to buy.

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08-05-2010, 01:43 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
Which part? The part about posting that Winnipeg is too small to fit into the apparant strategy of the NHL to place teams in big markets, or the part about So. Ontario being a huge market and gold mine when a team finally lands there and, like most people who are out to make a profit, Thomson would move the team there if he were allowed?
The "Phoenix (or some other team) to Winnipeg as a temporary stop on the way to Ontario" argument is so beyond reason I'm not sure why people choose to promote it. If Chipman and Thomson moved a team from Winnipeg to Ontario, they would be giving up a relative money machine in the Manitoba Moose as part of the MTS Centre. Further, Chipman and his family, after carefully building a very positive business reputation in Winnipeg, would be run out of town. Not going to happen. The argument is ludicrous.

If and when the southern Ontario market opens up, Thomson could be a player in that and would already be in the good books of the BOG after being integral in bringing a team to Winnipeg.

Now, let's get back to the Phoenix discussion, please.

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08-05-2010, 01:53 PM
  #607
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The "Phoenix (or some other team) to Winnipeg as a temporary stop on the way to Ontario" argument is so beyond reason I'm not sure why people choose to promote it. If Chipman and Thomson moved a team from Winnipeg to Ontario, they would be giving up a relative money machine in the Manitoba Moose as part of the MTS Centre. Further, Chipman and his family, after carefully building a very positive business reputation in Winnipeg, would be run out of town. Not going to happen. The argument is ludicrous.

If and when the southern Ontario market opens up, Thomson could be a player in that and would already be in the good books of the BOG after being integral in bringing a team to Winnipeg.

Now, let's get back to the Phoenix discussion, please.
Fair enough. Seems to me that there is little to discuss at this point until there is further news on the Phoenix front. The Phoenix franchise is like a fiddler on the roof. Tenuous at best.

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08-05-2010, 10:48 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
Which part? The part about posting that Winnipeg is too small to fit into the apparant strategy of the NHL to place teams in big markets, or the part about So. Ontario being a huge market and gold mine when a team finally lands there and, like most people who are out to make a profit, Thomson would move the team there if he were allowed?
Part 1 of your post has been discussed here for what seems like forever. The bottom line is the strategy of placing NHL teams in large, non-traditional markets where the sport comes after NFL, MLB, NBA, NCAA (and in the case of Phoenix, spring training for MLB), etc., has not been an unqualified success. The purpose of these moves was to increase TV viewership and obtain a large national TV contract. That has failed and the media has been transformed in the last 15 years with 100 plus cable channels and the internet. That ship has sailed. In addition, I would argue that Winnipeg is a much larger hockey market than a city like Phoenix, without any major pro-sports competition.

Re. part 2, the idea that Winnipeg would be a planned interim stop on the way to southern Ontario is quite absurd for many reasons, not least of which it would be totally out of character for the TNSE group. The Chipman family have all of their major businesses in Winnipeg and Mark Chipman was one of the players that tried to save the Winnipeg Jets. Also, I don't believe Thomson would ever act in such deceptive, heavy-handed manner, with his partner -- everything I have read about the man suggests the opposite.

GHOST

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08-05-2010, 11:01 PM
  #609
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Part 1 of your post has been discussed here for what seems like forever. The bottom line is the strategy of placing NHL teams in large, non-traditional markets where the sport comes after NFL, MLB, NBA, NCAA (and in the case of Phoenix, spring training for MLB), etc., has not been an unqualified success. The purpose of these moves was to increase TV viewership and obtain a large national TV contract. That has failed and the media has been transformed in the last 15 years with 100 plus cable channels and the internet. That ship has sailed. In addition, I would argue that Winnipeg is a much larger hockey market than a city like Phoenix, without any major pro-sports competition.

GHOST
I tend to agree with this. Manila or Istanbul or Rio might be huge "markets", but I think they would struggle to support an NHL franchise. Lots of people, but not enough hockey fans. That doesn't mean that I don't think that Phoenix might be able to support a team, but given the obstacles for generating ancillary revenues from the arena and surrounding businesses and the onerous lease, it hasn't had enough fan support to push it close to profitability in that market. Now there is the added problem of a depressed fan base (because of the financial difficulties) and a price tag inflated by the vagaries of the bankruptcy process that forced the NHL to buy and operate the team.

Actually, I think that if the NHL is really serious about the Phoenix market their wisest move might be to sell the Coyotes franchise to a group elsewhere to recoup their financial outlay ($160-170 million), and then offer an expansion franchise to Phoenix on the cheap, presumably with a new arena lease agreement that is favorable to the owners. That might get a new ownership group off on a firmer financial footing in Glendale.

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08-05-2010, 11:18 PM
  #610
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I tend to agree with this. Manila or Istanbul or Rio might be huge "markets", but I think they would struggle to support an NHL franchise. Lots of people, but not enough hockey fans. That doesn't mean that I don't think that Phoenix might be able to support a team, but given the obstacles for generating ancillary revenues from the arena and surrounding businesses and the onerous lease, it hasn't had enough fan support to push it close to profitability in that market. Now there is the added problem of a depressed fan base (because of the financial difficulties) and a price tag inflated by the vagaries of the bankruptcy process that forced the NHL to buy and operate the team.

Actually, I think that if the NHL is really serious about the Phoenix market their wisest move might be to sell the Coyotes franchise to a group elsewhere to recoup their financial outlay ($160-170 million), and then offer an expansion franchise to Phoenix on the cheap, presumably with a new arena lease agreement that is favorable to the owners. That might get a new ownership group off on a firmer financial footing in Glendale.
I'd like to know why people believe the Coyotes' lease is "onerous." I think most owners of an NHL team would prefer that the tax payer build them an arena rather than having to finance it on their own. The Coyotes were, in addition, give the master lease on the arena and access to all non-hockey event revenue. The Coyotes problems are more related to the location of the arena, the market for hockey and a competing arena for non-hockey events in downtown Phoenix.

The NHL is concerned with franchise values more than the Phoenix marketplace. I'm not sure they would be interested in providing a below market value expansion franchise to the city, unless it was seen as a move to encourage cities to continue to fund tax-payer subsidized arenas for pro-sports teams.

GHOST

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08-05-2010, 11:23 PM
  #611
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I tend to agree with this. Manila or Istanbul or Rio might be huge "markets", but I think they would struggle to support an NHL franchise. Lots of people, but not enough hockey fans. That doesn't mean that I don't think that Phoenix might be able to support a team, but given the obstacles for generating ancillary revenues from the arena and surrounding businesses and the onerous lease, it hasn't had enough fan support to push it close to profitability in that market. Now there is the added problem of a depressed fan base (because of the financial difficulties) and a price tag inflated by the vagaries of the bankruptcy process that forced the NHL to buy and operate the team.

Actually, I think that if the NHL is really serious about the Phoenix market their wisest move might be to sell the Coyotes franchise to a group elsewhere to recoup their financial outlay ($160-170 million), and then offer an expansion franchise to Phoenix on the cheap, presumably with a new arena lease agreement that is favorable to the owners. That might get a new ownership group off on a firmer financial footing in Glendale.
Oh, come on, the Rio Carnivales rings nicely, and it's a mask celebration! Throw hockey maks wearing revellers on the street during Carnival/Mardi Gras-it's money in the bank! MONEY!!!


On a serious note, and the second part of your post-I've thought this too, but then try to explain to the Yotes fans that their team (which now is growing into a competitive team) is going to another city, and here's an expansion team to start from scratch. I wouldn't think that would go over really well with the fanbase, and the ownership IMO would have an even more uphill battle, telling the fans they're got another 4-5 years at least before being competitive.

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08-05-2010, 11:29 PM
  #612
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Oh, come on, the Rio Carnivales rings nicely, and it's a mask celebration! Throw hockey maks wearing revellers on the street during Carnival/Mardi Gras-it's money in the bank! MONEY!!!


On a serious note, and the second part of your post-I've thought this too, but then try to explain to the Yotes fans that their team (which now is growing into a competitive team) is going to another city, and here's an expansion team to start from scratch. I wouldn't think that would go over really well with the fanbase, and the ownership IMO would have an even more uphill battle, telling the fans they're got another 4-5 years at least before being competitive.
Yes, that is an important point about "starting fresh". But it might be the only way for the numbers to work realistically for Glendale, the NHL and a new ownership group.

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08-05-2010, 11:42 PM
  #613
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Yes, that is an important point about "starting fresh". But it might be the only way for the numbers to work realistically for Glendale, the NHL and a new ownership group.
From a business standpoint, I agree, that way it "clears the decks" financially. Doing that ownership would HAVE to be prepared for years of losses off the hop, trying to convince a fanbase to come back-still, you have "instant rivalry" between the "new" Yotes and the team that was bought and taken to another city!

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08-06-2010, 12:12 AM
  #614
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I'd like to know why people believe the Coyotes' lease is "onerous."
GHOST
Many view the length of the term as onerous.

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08-06-2010, 08:46 AM
  #615
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So, IEH has no money and we are back to the CFD, JR and Goldwater? Did I miss anything?

GHOST
The mulberry bush is starting to have a trench around it.

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08-06-2010, 09:39 AM
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Many view the length of the term as onerous.
The cost is one of the 2 highest in the league when all is said and done, according to what the now departed Doug Moss told me at a game last season. On top of this, Coyotes were not allowed to charge for parking, but had to pay something near $2 per ticket sold to the city to cover their parking "expenses". I recall the city spokesperson glowing about this when the arena opened, that parking would always be free, saving fans 10 to 20 dollars a game. Perhaps someone can sift through the BK documents to verify the cost of the AMULA to the team.

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08-06-2010, 11:05 AM
  #617
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Any news today from IEH / COG. Wasn't the 6th the date they were suppsoed to conclude negotiations?

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08-06-2010, 11:42 AM
  #618
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Any news today from IEH / COG, wasn't the 6th the date they were supposed to conclude negotiations?
Yes, August 6th was the drop-dead date to conclude negotiations with IE. It remains' to be seen whether or not Glendale can/will live with it or move on. As reported & discussed here, they have apparently failed to provide full documentation pursuant to their term sheet; negotiations stalled some time ago as a result. It would be negligent on the part of Beasley/Tindal to not fully engage other interested parties, pretty sure they have been doing so for some time now. It will be interesting to see whether or not we see a statement coming from Glendale or IE over the next 24-48-72 hours regarding an "extension"?. Its possible we may see either party announcing that theyve' either resolved the financial issues or their done like dinner; but absent another potential ownership group willing to go public, not likely. No news could be good or bad depending on what side of the fence your sitting & what your opinion is.

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08-06-2010, 11:44 AM
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I always did favor Charybdis. I expect Glendale to take it in the shorts whether they keep the team or not. I haven't seen this kind of bungling on a municipal level since the construction of the Big O. To think that part of my taxes will have gone into both screw ups is rather unsettling.

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08-06-2010, 11:46 AM
  #620
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Money says nothing get announced today.

Done deal, not a done deal, extension, no extension
doesnt matter

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08-06-2010, 12:50 PM
  #621
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Yes, August 6th was the drop-dead date to conclude negotiations with IE. It remains' to be seen whether or not Glendale can/will live with it or move on. As reported & discussed here, they have apparently failed to provide full documentation pursuant to their term sheet; negotiations stalled some time ago as a result. It would be negligent on the part of Beasley/Tindal to not fully engage other interested parties, pretty sure they have been doing so for some time now. It will be interesting to see whether or not we see a statement coming from Glendale or IE over the next 24-48-72 hours regarding an "extension"?. Its possible we may see either party announcing that theyve' either resolved the financial issues or their done like dinner; but absent another potential ownership group willing to go public, not likely. No news could be good or bad depending on what side of the fence your sitting & what your opinion is.
The ways things have gone, I'm actually thinking we hear in the next little bit of an extention by IEH "Oh, that Aug 6 date, that wasn't significant, we're moving forward nicely with negotiations". Does it make sense? Maybe not, but sense hasn't seemed to be pre-requisite during this entire process....

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08-06-2010, 01:05 PM
  #622
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Does it make sense?
Nope. "Drop Dead Date" means' just that in my world. And in keeping with the title of this thread; you place coins' over the eyes' of the dead in payment to Charon; who ferries the corpse across the River Styx to Zombieland.


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08-06-2010, 01:07 PM
  #623
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Nope. "Drop Dead Date" means' just that in my world. You place coins' over the eyes' of the dead in payment to Charon; who ferries the the body across the River Styx to Zombieland.

A fitting response given the thread title.

 
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08-06-2010, 02:38 PM
  #624
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I say move the Coyotes to Winnipeg for next season and then move the Thrashers to Phoenix the following. Atlanta has had 2 kicks at the cat and have shown again it will never work, so move them.

Part of the problem here is the negotiations are all being done under pressure and with a gun to the CoG's head. Take a year off, everyone can relax, take a deep breath, and come up with a plan that makes hockey in Phoenix work.

People will say, but we lose a season of hockey. So what. The way things are speedily progressing, it looks like no matter what happens, the CoG is going to be cashing in some or all of that $25 million. Best to avoid doing that all together, just because nobody knows how the GoldWater guys are going to react.

The upside is a good lease can be hammered out, and Phoenix won't be getting an expansion team and have to start all over. As well, if you really want a fresh start you can even change the colors and logos and team name if you want.

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08-06-2010, 02:39 PM
  #625
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Zoning Deal

Maybe some of our locals in Glendale can give some insights into if this will have any impact on the Coyotes:

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/s...ess+Journal%29

Quote:
The city of Glendale moved forward plans by the Bidwill family Thursday night to develop two hotels, 4.5 million square feet of office space and urban residences in what now are parking lots at University of Phoenix Stadium.

The Bidwills own the Arizona Cardinals football team and parking lots next to the state-funded and -owned UOP Stadium, off Loop 101 at Glendale Avenue.

The Glendale Planning Commission voted 5-1 to approve rezoning of the parking lots to accommodate the developments and allow for more special events and festivals to be held outside the stadium.

The Cards are taking over the concessions contract at UOP Stadium and have promised to create more revenue via more events outside the $455 million dome. Attorneys for the Cardinals and Bidwills said Glendale is losing out to Scottsdale and other locations for festivals because of the current zoning at the UOP parking lots.

...
Wonder if the City is smart enough to leverage the re-zoning grant into including the stadium and surrounding lots in the CFD?


Last edited by Fugu: 08-06-2010 at 04:39 PM. Reason: copyright-- can't post the entire article
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