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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis

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Old
08-09-2010, 11:01 AM
  #776
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
How's basketball and baseball in Canada? Oh, ok. Should those leagues give up and just write off Canadians as not being sports fans with the exception of hockey and curling? Those leagues have decided to keep their presence in Canada and slowly grow the sport.
As pointed out by others, neither of those sports has any hope of expanding into more Canadian markets because people here do not care enough about those sports.

This attempt at making a point strongly undermines your own argument.

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08-09-2010, 11:11 AM
  #777
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There's a simple explanation for why Base and Basketball are in Toronto:

Toronto just happens to be an American city that is North of the border

(And before anyone jumps on me I'm Canadian)

Yea, didn't hear about the Leafs new Logo? It's an American flag with little Maple Leaves where the stars are


In seriousness, it sucks for any fanbase that loses a team. It's easy to chalk it up to "they can't support it", well that does hurt those that have and do support it right now. The Yotes have ingrained enough of a presence that the very fact it gets heated debate on these threads says alot-if no one really cared, we wouldn't be having these debates.

On a lighter note, I hope something works out where Winnipeg and Yotes both have a team-I think we've got the makings of a real rivalry when both those teams hit the ice against eachother


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Having said that, it seems clear to me that if the ownership situation is resolved and the team stays in Glendale, there will very soon have to be a lot more fans willing to spend a lot more for tickets, etc. to make things work there. It is unrealistic to expect ancillary revenue streams, particularly from non-Coyotes patrons at surrounding businesses, to subsidize the team's operations.
Can someone provide me a link that sums up what exactly Colangelo's deal entailed (I know it was just tickets, but how long a deal would it have been, ect)?


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08-09-2010, 11:15 AM
  #778
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Whether Phoenix is currently a viable market or not is besides the point. The NHL appears to believe that Phoenix is important to their business plan and so continues to deal with the problems. We can all speculate about how much more pacience the NHL will have but clearly, very clearly, at this time and for the previous years Phoenix is and has been more important to the NHL than has any possible relocation site in Canada, be it Winnipeg or QC.


Last edited by Fugu: 08-09-2010 at 08:45 PM. Reason: qdp
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08-09-2010, 11:21 AM
  #779
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
I don't need you to interpret what I post in English. I basically said what I posted. It takes a lot of time and very good management to grow a sport and turn nontraditional markets into good markets with the start of tradition

Whether Phoenix is currently a viable market or not is besides the point. The NHL appears to believe that Phoenix is important to their business plan and so continues to deal with the problems. We can all speculate about how much more pacience the NHL will have but clearly, very clearly, at this time and for the previous years Phoenix is and has been more important to the NHL than has any possible relocation site in Canada, be it Winnipeg or QC.
This is entirely the point. If this was besides the point multiple owners would be lining up to put down actual money to buy the franchise.

How many buyers exist in 2010 willing to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in an immovable money pit?


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08-09-2010, 11:27 AM
  #780
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Glendale will buy the team before that happens. This has nothing to do with hockey, but Luke AFB has all but ben granted the F 35 contract. That means billions and billions in revenue for Glendale. What would 150 million mean? It's like buying a big mac. Would the NHL approve a city as an owner, yes cause they know they would have the money and would save face. Glendale can sell the team or whatever. It cannot be understated what that contract means in $$$$$ revenue.
they are talking about basing the aircraft, not building it. Luke already has F-16s, so it might mean a mission shift, but it will not result in billions of revenue.....

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08-09-2010, 11:35 AM
  #781
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Can someone provide me a link that sums up what exactly Colangelo's deal entailed (I know it was just tickets, but how long a deal would it have been, ect)?
Here is a link to the Reinsdorf MOU... http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/0409...ale-hockey.pdf

I think the main challenge related to the heavy reliance on taxes and levies from a "Community Facilities District" (CFD) to provide the following:

1) $65 million over the first 3 years towards the $168 million purchase price of the team (Reinsdorf would only pay $103 million of the price).
2) Establishment of a "Loss Reserve Account" that would pay up to $25 million in operating losses over the first 7 years, capped at a total of $100 million.

Together, these subsidies via the CFD could total $165 million over 7 years.

If the CFD failed to provide these revenues, Reinsdorf had the option of either selling to another owner to keep the team in Glendale for a guaranteed price of $103 million (his original investment), or relocating or selling the team for relocation if a local owner was not found.

The deal had little risk for Reinsdorf. It also didn't require any direct financial cost from Glendale per se, but it required very high revenues from the CFD to subsidize his purchase cost and to pay operating losses. Without much local knowledge, I have speculated that since Reinsdorf and the City of Glendale both agreed on this MOU, the sticking point has been actually getting the CFD revenue mechanism established.

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08-09-2010, 11:43 AM
  #782
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And a fellow Canadian several posts above you said the Grizzlies' real problem was ownership.

Seems like there's differing opinions on both side of the border.

And going by your own definitions.... the NBA should have yanked the Clippers out of LA years ago.
I know there was a poster on these boards I spoke with a while ago who felt that it takes 25 years to grow a franchise (from the time a child goes to a game to the time they take their children to the game as an adult).

If only really there were some way that Bettman could guarantee an expansion at the least to Winnipeg (which probably wouldn't happen until after a new CBA is signed). At that point, the CoG could say "okay we'll give you a 5 year window" to a potential owner to prove the last half of the year wasn't a fluke attendance wise. If the Peg and another city are granted an expansion, the potential owner right now has a little less leverage. After 5 years, if the team is doing well, then talk longer term deal, but put realistic benchmarks in, what type of attendance, season tickets, ect should be met.

Stupid question(I'm tired this morning and maybe missing the obvious) does the CoG own the arena outright right now? Just wondering if the arena could be sold outright, with the chance of taking the hit on lease payments, at least get something back?

Like I said, it's probably been covered, but my mind isn't working....

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08-09-2010, 11:46 AM
  #783
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
Here is a link to the Reinsdorf MOU... http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/0409...ale-hockey.pdf

I think the main challenge related to the heavy reliance on taxes and levies from a "Community Facilities District" (CFD) to provide the following:

1) $65 million over the first 3 years towards the $168 million purchase price of the team (Reinsdorf would only pay $103 million of the price).
2) Establishment of a "Loss Reserve Account" that would pay up to $25 million in operating losses over the first 7 years, capped at a total of $100 million.

Together, these subsidies via the CFD could total $165 million over 7 years.

If the CFD failed to provide these revenues, Reinsdorf had the option of either selling to another owner to keep the team in Glendale for a guaranteed price of $103 million (his original investment), or relocating or selling the team for relocation if a local owner was not found.

The deal had little risk for Reinsdorf. It also didn't require any direct financial cost from Glendale per se, but it required very high revenues from the CFD to subsidize his purchase cost and to pay operating losses. Without much local knowledge, I have speculated that since Reinsdorf and the City of Glendale both agreed on this MOU, the sticking point has been actually getting the CFD revenue mechanism established.
I meant Jerry Colangelo's original deal to put the Yotes in the Suns arena . But this also helps put stuff into perspective as well thanks.

"Wile e Coyote: Genius" (always think that when I read your name



EDIT: reading JR's original deal again is eyeopening: wow 165 mil in subse-er "bonds". Even under best circumstances, JR gets all that financing and still after 7 years could very well say "nah, not working out, gonna sell the team".


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08-09-2010, 11:55 AM
  #784
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Originally Posted by mikelvl View Post
[/B]

The gap between the importance of Phoenix versus a Canadien market has shrunk considerably over the past year IMHO. Hence the 12/31 crap or get off the pot message to COG from NHL. What that spells in the long run, I don't know. But Bettman, Daly etc. al. don't sweet talk Winnipeg and Quebec City if they don't mean it. That would ruin him in Canada if his posturing was a ruse.
It would indeed be angering, going by his (I'm sure now wishing he hadn't made it in public) comment along the lines of "Winnipeg would be the next city deserving of a franchise" comment. (Boy I remember the boards when that comment was made-things got interesting)
And of course his "wanting to right previous wrongs" comment to Mclean on HNIC.

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08-09-2010, 12:05 PM
  #785
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It was actually invented in America by a naturalized American born in Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Naismith
Ah. Just wrote my citizenship test a while back, and in the "Study Guide" the Gov't sends you, it has the fact that "Basketball was invented by a Canadian" in it. Thats all I was going off of

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08-09-2010, 12:12 PM
  #786
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It seems to me that the NHL has pretty much given up in terms of finding local ownership and keeping the team in Phoenix.

I think Bettman and the BOG actually wanted to sell the team to TNSE and relocation a few months back before COG provided the 25 million (ie. Bettman's tight-lipped stance on Winnipeg before the deadline during the Scott Oake interview, followed by admission that the league would like to "fix mistakes" and go back to cities that had teams before). I think the NHL knows that even though COG bought themselves more time, relocation is ultimately inevitable.

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08-09-2010, 12:48 PM
  #787
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Toledo Mud Hens - what, are you trying for a Section 8 ?
Many a battle with Fugu over that one.

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Killinger?
Hey, Mud Hens are comfortably residing in the basement. Bringing up a pitcher from Single 'A', Foghorn Cleghorn. I say, I say just you wait...

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08-09-2010, 12:56 PM
  #788
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And a fellow Canadian several posts above you said the Grizzlies' real problem was ownership. Seems like there's differing opinions on both side of the border.
6yrs. 95-01. IMO, big mistake dropping a team into Vancouver in the first place. GM Place was brand new, then owner Orca Bay wanted dual tenancy. Ineptitude on the court combined with a lack of history & just general apathy doomed the franchise. Money pit. David Stern admitted "it was a mistake" that he "regrets" in awarding a franchise to Vancouver, worse still to then have to move it.

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08-09-2010, 01:13 PM
  #789
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"Wile e Coyote: Genius" (always think that when I read your name

With tongue planted firmly in cheek...

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08-09-2010, 01:22 PM
  #790
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Just wrote my citizenship test a while back, and in the "Study Guide" the Gov't sends you, it has the fact that "Basketball was invented by a Canadian" in it.
Most of the time, I'm quite happy and quietly proud to be Canadian - but there there is just plain embarrassing.

 
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08-09-2010, 01:23 PM
  #791
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6yrs. 95-01. IMO, big mistake dropping a team into Vancouver in the first place. GM Place was brand new, then owner Orca Bay wanted dual tenancy. Ineptitude on the court combined with a lack of history & just general apathy doomed the franchise. Money pit. David Stern admitted "it was a mistake" that he "regrets" in awarding a franchise to Vancouver, worse still to then have to move it.
Here's the difference between Gary and David Stern, his hero. Gary never makes mistakes. Therefore Phoenix is a great market and the brilliant idea to put a team there can't be second-guessed or overturned with the benefit of hindsight. Until they exhaust all sorts of CFD possibilities and other handouts from Glendale. Then if they still can't find someone else to sign up to lose a bunch of money owning the Coyotes in Glendale, then the team will move. But it will be the economy's fault. Not Gary's.

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And going by your own definitions.... the NBA should have yanked the Clippers out of LA years ago.
Maybe. But isn't the Clippers owner perfectly happy having a sucky team and still somehow making money each year?

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08-09-2010, 01:33 PM
  #792
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Originally Posted by Scottrocks58 View Post
Whether Phoenix is currently a viable market or not is besides the point. The NHL appears to believe that Phoenix is important to their business plan and so continues to deal with the problems. We can all speculate about how much more pacience the NHL will have but clearly, very clearly, at this time and for the previous years Phoenix is and has been more important to the NHL than has any possible relocation site in Canada, be it Winnipeg or QC.
Phoenix was more important to the NHL than having another team in Canada or elswehere. I'll grant you that. But that is only the case as long as the Coyotes don't cost the league a cent. The NHL was perfectly willing to throw in the towel until they somehow convinced COG to put up $25 million for the coming season. As long as someone else funds the losses, the NHL is fine with it. But if it's the NHL's money at risk, they'd be moving immediately.

The real test of importance should be how much the NHL is willing to "pay" for the all-important Phoenix market. Right now they're willing to pay $0 for that. If they lower their sale price so they'd lose $10 or $20 million on their Coyotes investment, then I'll believe they really and truly do want / need to have a team in Phoenix.

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08-09-2010, 01:38 PM
  #793
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Here's the difference between Gary and David Stern, his hero. Gary never makes mistakes. Therefore Phoenix is a great market and the brilliant idea to put a team there can't be second-guessed or overturned with the benefit of hindsight. Until they exhaust all sorts of CFD possibilities and other handouts from Glendale. Then if they still can't find someone else to sign up to lose a bunch of money owning the Coyotes in Glendale, then the team will move. But it will be the economy's fault. Not Gary's.
I actually think that Bettman is now acting quite neutrally in relation to keeping a franchise in Glendale. The NHL bought the team through the bankruptcy process to keep it away from Balsillie and Hamilton, more than to ensure that the team stayed in Glendale. Naturally, they would like the franchise to stay in the Phoenix area. But whether the team stays or goes right now has very little to do with Bettman and the NHL, it is all about whether Glendale can offer up a suitable financial deal to entice an ownership group to buy the team and operate it in Glendale. If Glendale is successful in that pursuit and finds a suitable ownership group, Bettman will be delighted to sell them the Coyotes and keep the team in Glendale. If not, Bettman will sell to someone else and relocate the team. I think that the indications are clear that the NHL has done all that it intends to do to keep the team in Glendale, and the rest is up to Glendale, local businesses and potential owners to work out.

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08-09-2010, 01:43 PM
  #794
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Phoenix was more important to the NHL than having another team in Canada or elswehere. I'll grant you that. But that is only the case as long as the Coyotes don't cost the league a cent. The NHL was perfectly willing to throw in the towel until they somehow convinced COG to put up $25 million for the coming season. As long as someone else funds the losses, the NHL is fine with it. But if it's the NHL's money at risk, they'd be moving immediately.

The real test of importance should be how much the NHL is willing to "pay" for the all-important Phoenix market. Right now they're willing to pay $0 for that. If they lower their sale price so they'd lose $10 or $20 million on their Coyotes investment, then I'll believe they really and truly do want / need to have a team in Phoenix.
I couldn't agree more. The NHL would like to keep a team in Glendale, but not so much that they would forego an opportunity to recoup most or all of their costs for buying and operating the team. If the NHL really believed that there was a strong financial reason for keeping the team in Glendale under the present circumstances over relocating the team then they could lower the purchase price to make the numbers work better for a prospective new owner. If they remaining unwilling to discount the purchase price, I think that speaks volumes for how they feel about the financial benefits of keeping the team there.

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08-09-2010, 01:59 PM
  #795
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If the NHL really believed that there was a strong financial reason for keeping the team in Glendale under the present circumstances over relocating the team then they could lower the purchase price to make the numbers work better for a prospective new owner. If they remain unwilling to discount the purchase price, I think that speaks volumes for how they feel about the financial benefits of keeping the team there.
Bingo. They require their investment back in full, now, not tomorrow, not next year, not in 3yrs, now. The full amount. I cant imagine what possible incentive's somewhere between the "above & beyond" of Reinsdorfs' to the more practicable albeit optimistic MOU presented by IE. The COG should simply write up their own MOU, maxed to whatever their Legal Council considers' bullet-proof & put it out there. Like you, I have detected nothing but ambivalence from the NHL since the $25M stop-loss guarantee.

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08-09-2010, 02:49 PM
  #796
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Bingo. They require their investment back in full, now, not tomorrow, not next year, not in 3yrs, now. The full amount. I cant imagine what possible incentive's somewhere between the "above & beyond" of Reinsdorfs' to the more practicable albeit optimistic MOU presented by IE. The COG should simply write up their own MOU, maxed to whatever their Legal Council considers' bullet-proof & put it out there. Like you, I have detected nothing but ambivalence from the NHL since the $25M stop-loss guarantee.
One may not agree with the NHL top brass, but the're not idiots by a long shot. Knowing the sales price in Florida and the current valuation of the Coyotes, the league must be prepared to discount their price. They always knew that it would be near impossible to get one and a half times what the team is worth staying in Glendale.

I find it illogical for the league to put everyone, themselves included, through this long drawn out mess if they had long ago decided that they wanted back every dime that it cost them to keep the team from Balsillie. Logically, they would have sold the team to TNSE and recouped their money over the summer rather than demand that 25 mil guarantee from Glendale and continue this sorry saga.

That being said, I believe that the very fact that the league hasn't relocated the Coyotes over the past 15 months leads one to think that the NHL will accept a more reasonable price for the team from a "stay at home" ownership.


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08-09-2010, 03:20 PM
  #797
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I find it illogical for the league to put everyone, themselves included, through this long drawn out mess if they had long ago decided that they wanted back every dime that it cost them to keep the team from Balsillie. Logically, they would have sold the team to TNSE and recouped their money over the summer rather than demand that 25 mil guarantee from Glendale and continue this sorry saga.

That being said, I believe that the very fact that the league hasn't relocated the Coyotes over the past 15 months leads one to think that the NHL will accept a more reasonable price for the team from a "stay at home" ownership.
I disagree. I think one of the major stumbling blocks has been and continues to be the NHL's demand that they get all of their money back. I don't think they have changed their position, and I don't think they will.

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08-09-2010, 03:39 PM
  #798
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One may not agree with the NHL top brass, but the're not idiots by a long shot. Knowing the sale price in Florida and the current valuation of the Coyotes, the league must be prepared to discount their price. They always knew that it would be near impossible to get one and a half times what the team is worth staying in Glendale. That being said, I believe that the very fact that the league hasn't relocated the Coyotes over the past 15 months leads one to think that the NHL will accept a more reasonable price for the team from a "stay at home" ownership.
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I disagree. I think one of the major stumbling blocks has been and continues to be the NHL's demand that they get all of their money back. I don't think they have changed their position, and I don't think they will.
And here we are. On the one hand optimism, on the other pessimism. Who's right, whose wrong?. Nothing the league has said would lead me to believe they are willing or able to drop the price. If they were/are, I think Jerry Reinsdorf would own the team right now. "Mystery Buyer's" likely have the same difficulty, reconciling the disparity in sale price with actual value, a willing COG in its creation of the CFD, but so many unknowns. It may well have been a "Freudian Slip" by Ice Edge's PR guy when he stated "we are working towards buying the team from the NHL first", as they knew/know just how far Glendale can go, the real difficulty being the $170M & counting shock sticker price. . Does the problem lie with Glendale or with the NHL?. Maybe IEH's backers are willing at $90M-$110M based on their own capitol infusions & the CFD; but the numbers just dont wash at $170M+?. This is what I mean by "ambivalence" from the league. If they wanted a deal done, it'd be done by now, accomadations made on price & or financing.

Note; And yes, league brass is smart, though I prefer "crafty". Instead of makling said accomadations, they are hiding behind the COG's skirts practically holding up a pair of Bunny Ears, blaming them while demanding $25M for its failure to secure an owner?. Wag the Dog much?. Where's the give & take?. Why arent they all at the table to thrash this thing out?.


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08-09-2010, 03:44 PM
  #799
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And here we are. On the one hand optimism, on the other pessimism. Who's right, whose wrong?. Nothing the league has said would lead me to believe they are willing or able to drop the price. If they were/are, I think Jerry Reinsdorf would own the team right now. "Mystery Buyer's" likely have the same difficulty, reconciling the disparity in sale price with actual value, a willing COG in its creation of the CFD, but so many unknowns. It may well have been a "Freudian Slip" by Ice Edge's PR guy when he stated "we are working towards buying the team from the NHL first", as they knew/know just how far Glendale can go, the real difficulty being the $170M & counting shock sticker price. . Does the problem lie with Glendale or with the NHL?. Maybe IEH's backers are willing at $90M-$110M based on their own capitol infusions & the CFD; but the numbers just dont wash at $170M+?. This is what I mean by "ambivalence" from the league. If they wanted a deal done, it'd be done by now, accomadations made on price & or financing.
Yes Mystery buyers- If they do exist the Cof G gets the award for the best kept secret ever in sport. It's been what at least a couple of weeks for the latest set of Mystery Buyers and still no leaks ... Amazing

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08-09-2010, 03:57 PM
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Knowing the sales price in Florida and the current valuation of the Coyotes, the league must be prepared to discount their price.
Everything they've done strongly suggests they are going to insist on getting their price even if it means moving the team out of Phoenix.

 
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