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Who are the top 10 defensive wingers of all time?

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Old
07-27-2010, 01:03 PM
  #26
Stick To Your Guns
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HM: Alfredsson, one of the best in the game, not top 10 of all time but easily top 5 playing right now.

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07-27-2010, 01:05 PM
  #27
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Why should Carbonneau be mentioned in a thread about defensive wingers?
Fair enough.

On the Ramsay vs Gainey thing though.
It has to be noted that Ramsay was more of a 2way winger taking shifts on the 1rst and 2nd lines quite often and wasn't always used to go up against the other teams best.
Gainey on the other hand was all defense all the time and matched up against the other teams best for almost every minute he was on the ice.

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07-27-2010, 01:21 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Dany Heatley Allstar View Post
HM: Alfredsson, one of the best in the game, not top 10 of all time but easily top 5 playing right now.
If Alfie, then Hossa and Elias too.

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07-27-2010, 01:29 PM
  #29
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
If you are looking at mainly or strictly wingers, not centers who would play a significant amount as wingers like Alex Delvecchio then consider:

Craig Ramsay, Ed Westfall, George Armstrong, Bob Pulford, Woody Dumart,Jarri Kurri,Brian Propp,Patrik Elias, Chico Maki, Don Marcotte, Daniel Alfredsson, Henrik Zetterberg, Brenden Morrow,Harry Watson,
I love Patrik Elias. Great two-way player, but no way is he even close to one of the best defensive wingers of all time. Jay Pandolfo was a lot better.

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07-27-2010, 02:07 PM
  #30
begbeee
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Not nowhere near best all-time, but my favourites in defensive wingers were P.J. Axelsson and Magnus Arvedsson.

I like them both.

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07-27-2010, 02:55 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Why shouldn't Smith count?
Apparently, Smith was primarily a center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Offensive skills of the respective linemates.

Don Luce > Doug Jarvis.
Danny Gare > Jim Roberts/Rejean Houle.

.
You are right about that; however, I've looked at the defensive numbers separately too, and the Sabres line did better defensively than the Gainey line, despite being in a tougher environment (likely had lesser defensemen and goalie on the ice at all times)

Defensively, Luce and Jarvis are about equal; with a slight edge to Jarvis. Roberts and Houle are better than Gare defensively. So with all other parts (goalie, defensemen, Luce, Gare) inferior to their Habs counterparts defensively, the edge the Sabres earned appears to have come from the LW edge they held.

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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
To follow up a little on my last post, here is a list of the top penalty killing wingers of the last 40 years, as defined by those wingers who spent a lot of time killing penalties on effective PK units. I think this list is interesting in part because few wingers have actually spent a lot of time killing penalties - usually centres and defencemen have a larger role.

PKTime=an approximation of the number of season equivalents of shorthanded ice time that the player played. Calculated by sum of (PlayerPGA/TeamPGA).

TeamPK+=strength of the penalty kill units for which the player played. 1 is average, lower is better. 0.80 means that the unit allowed goals at 80% of a league average rate. Calculated by 1-(TmPGA -TmSHGF)/TmTSH, with each season weighted by the players PKTime.

Best penalty killing wingers by the numbers, 1968-2010
Player PKTime TeamPK+
Craig Ramsay 7.96 0.77
Ed Westfall 7.68 0.80
Bob Gainey 6.58 0.83
Don Marcotte 5.39 0.80
Kelly Miller 6.16 0.85
Bill Barber 3.71 0.80
Brian Rolston 4.48 0.86
Jari Kurri 4.14 0.86
Jim Roberts 4.87 0.88
Jay Pandolfo 4.92 0.89
Wow, what a list, and it's incredible how much it goes with canonical knowledge, too.

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Old
07-27-2010, 04:06 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
To follow up a little on my last post, here is a list of the top penalty killing wingers of the last 40 years, as defined by those wingers who spent a lot of time killing penalties on effective PK units. I think this list is interesting in part because few wingers have actually spent a lot of time killing penalties - usually centres and defencemen have a larger role.

PKTime=an approximation of the number of season equivalents of shorthanded ice time that the player played. Calculated by sum of (PlayerPGA/TeamPGA).

TeamPK+=strength of the penalty kill units for which the player played. 1 is average, lower is better. 0.80 means that the unit allowed goals at 80% of a league average rate. Calculated by 1-(TmPGA -TmSHGF)/TmTSH, with each season weighted by the players PKTime.

Best penalty killing wingers by the numbers, 1968-2010
Player PKTime TeamPK+
Craig Ramsay 7.96 0.77
Ed Westfall 7.68 0.80
Bob Gainey 6.58 0.83
Don Marcotte 5.39 0.80
Kelly Miller 6.16 0.85
Bill Barber 3.71 0.80
Brian Rolston 4.48 0.86
Jari Kurri 4.14 0.86
Jim Roberts 4.87 0.88
Jay Pandolfo 4.92 0.89
Very interesting research overpass. Do you have a similar list for centres? I'm curious to see if any of those wingers made it without a centre with a comparable ranking.

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Old
07-27-2010, 04:12 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Not nowhere near best all-time, but my favourites in defensive wingers were P.J. Axelsson and Magnus Arvedsson.

I like them both.
Yes, P.J. Axelsson was heavily underrated and should have got more consideration for the Selke. He is a fringe player on my top10.

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Old
07-27-2010, 04:23 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Yes, P.J. Axelsson was heavily underrated and should have got more consideration for the Selke. He is a fringe player on my top10.
Okay, he was good, and underrated as a whole, but he just doesn't belong in the Top-30, let alone the Top-10.

Somebody mentionned Don Marcotte, and I dare now to mention Don Marshall. The two best defensive wingers I really overlooked in my long post. Both are in the Top-15.

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07-27-2010, 04:25 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik_71 View Post
Thomas Steen was a defensive gigant for the Winnipeg Jets. He is quite possible the most talented defensive forward ever to come out of Sweden.
Pahlsson?

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Old
07-27-2010, 04:30 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Pahlsson?
Steen is miles ahead of Pahlsson. Not that Pahlsson is bad but he isnt as good as Steen were.

Quote:
Okay, he was good, and underrated as a whole, but he just doesn't belong in the Top-30, let alone the Top-10.
Ofcourse he does.

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07-27-2010, 06:04 PM
  #37
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Gaetan Duchesne and Bob Gould.

Rick Middleton.

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Old
07-27-2010, 06:12 PM
  #38
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Don Marshall

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Okay, he was good, and underrated as a whole, but he just doesn't belong in the Top-30, let alone the Top-10.

Somebody mentionned Don Marcotte, and I dare now to mention Don Marshall. The two best defensive wingers I really overlooked in my long post. Both are in the Top-15.
You propose an interesting candidate - Don Marshall. Could play all three forward positions. Great skater, elite penalty killer.What holds him back in my opinion was that with the Canadiens despite plenty of opportunities he never became a regular.

If you look at his post Canadiens performance it was fairly uneven although he had regular shifts.

His penalty killing was elite but his endurance every game performance were somewhat short.

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Old
07-27-2010, 09:48 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Why should Carbonneau be mentioned in a thread about defensive wingers?
Maybe not, but you could arguably make a case for his wingman; Mike Keane.

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Old
07-27-2010, 11:02 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Very interesting research overpass. Do you have a similar list for centres? I'm curious to see if any of those wingers made it without a centre with a comparable ranking.
Here's the list for centres. I've gone 20 deep so you can find teammates of the wingers.

Rk Player PKTime TeamPK+
1 Don Luce 7.40 0.81
2 Doug Jarvis 6.60 0.79
3 Steve Yzerman 6.29 0.81
4 Bobby Clarke 5.76 0.81
5 Lorne Henning 3.90 0.75
6 Dave Poulin 4.65 0.79
7 Kris Draper 4.77 0.81
8 Sergei Fedorov 4.77 0.83
9 Mark Messier 9.11 0.90
10 Wayne Gretzky 5.86 0.86
11 Derek Sanderson 3.71 0.80
12 Guy Carbonneau 8.68 0.91
13 John Madden 5.74 0.87
14 Butch Goring 6.43 0.89
15 Phil Esposito 3.63 0.83
16 Adam Oates 4.46 0.87
17 Stu Barnes 3.87 0.86
18 Mike Ridley 3.55 0.85
19 Mike Peca 4.73 0.89
20 Bill Clement 4.32 0.89

The list of centres is deeper than the wingers. Oates would rank #10 on the list of wingers, Barnes would be #11.

Also, there is one way that this metric doesn't map to defensive skill. It gives credit for shorthanded goals. That's why Gretzky is in the top 10 here - most of Edmonton's value on the penalty kill came because they were so dangerous shorthanded. Although I guess you could say that's a kind of defence...

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Old
07-27-2010, 11:12 PM
  #41
Canadiens1958
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Interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Here's the list for centres. I've gone 20 deep so you can find teammates of the wingers.

Rk Player PKTime TeamPK+
1 Don Luce 7.40 0.81
2 Doug Jarvis 6.60 0.79
3 Steve Yzerman 6.29 0.81
4 Bobby Clarke 5.76 0.81
5 Lorne Henning 3.90 0.75
6 Dave Poulin 4.65 0.79
7 Kris Draper 4.77 0.81
8 Sergei Fedorov 4.77 0.83
9 Mark Messier 9.11 0.90
10 Wayne Gretzky 5.86 0.86
11 Derek Sanderson 3.71 0.80
12 Guy Carbonneau 8.68 0.91
13 John Madden 5.74 0.87
14 Butch Goring 6.43 0.89
15 Phil Esposito 3.63 0.83
16 Adam Oates 4.46 0.87
17 Stu Barnes 3.87 0.86
18 Mike Ridley 3.55 0.85
19 Mike Peca 4.73 0.89
20 Bill Clement 4.32 0.89

The list of centres is deeper than the wingers. Oates would rank #10 on the list of wingers, Barnes would be #11.

Also, there is one way that this metric doesn't map to defensive skill. It gives credit for shorthanded goals. That's why Gretzky is in the top 10 here - most of Edmonton's value on the penalty kill came because they were so dangerous shorthanded. Although I guess you could say that's a kind of defence...
Well done. Very revealing for Messier and Carbonneau.

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Old
07-27-2010, 11:48 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Here's the list for centres. I've gone 20 deep so you can find teammates of the wingers.

Rk Player PKTime TeamPK+
1 Don Luce 7.40 0.81
2 Doug Jarvis 6.60 0.79
3 Steve Yzerman 6.29 0.81
4 Bobby Clarke 5.76 0.81
5 Lorne Henning 3.90 0.75
6 Dave Poulin 4.65 0.79
7 Kris Draper 4.77 0.81
8 Sergei Fedorov 4.77 0.83
9 Mark Messier 9.11 0.90
10 Wayne Gretzky 5.86 0.86
11 Derek Sanderson 3.71 0.80
12 Guy Carbonneau 8.68 0.91
13 John Madden 5.74 0.87
14 Butch Goring 6.43 0.89
15 Phil Esposito 3.63 0.83
16 Adam Oates 4.46 0.87
17 Stu Barnes 3.87 0.86
18 Mike Ridley 3.55 0.85
19 Mike Peca 4.73 0.89
20 Bill Clement 4.32 0.89

The list of centres is deeper than the wingers. Oates would rank #10 on the list of wingers, Barnes would be #11.

Also, there is one way that this metric doesn't map to defensive skill. It gives credit for shorthanded goals. That's why Gretzky is in the top 10 here - most of Edmonton's value on the penalty kill came because they were so dangerous shorthanded. Although I guess you could say that's a kind of defence...
I'll be honest. I'm really, really surprised to see Phil Esposito here.

And the amount of time Messier spent killing penalties is insane.

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Old
07-27-2010, 11:57 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'll be honest. I'm really, really surprised to see Phil Esposito here.
Remember that this is really a list of forwards who played a lot on great penalty kills, and Boston's PK was as great as anyone's. Unless you were surprised to find that Esposito killed penalties at all, and I can't blame you for that. It's not really part of his image.

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