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Old
07-27-2010, 02:53 PM
  #126
Andy
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
No, but it would probably fill a whole that we currently have. Just a step in the right direction. And if one of Gomez/Plekanec is injured, he can be promoted and put some points, something Boyd can't.
Why commit money to an older player like belanger who is probably at the end of his career when you can pay a player 1/4th the price who's young, has shown nothing but good things in the nhl, who is as good a faceoff man and isn't that far off in terms of offense from belanger.

After all neither of the two will make us cup contenders. Signing Belanger is just a quick fix signing, something Gainey was guilty of, something which people like you complained about. Boyd is a good solution for now, but will be a long term solution. Committing money to Belanger at his age and when he really doesn't make that much a difference to our line up is a wasted investment when you don't have the cap room.

The only 3rd line center I wanted this off-season was Malhotra, I'd prefer Boyd at this point and would have been extremely disappointed if Gauthier would have signed Belanger.

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07-27-2010, 02:54 PM
  #127
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I don't see why people should focus on Eller vs. Belanger or Boyd vs. Belanger, etc. Or think that adding a Belanger automatically makes us a Cup contender, or even necessarily "better", in and of itself. But the reality is, even with Boyd, even with Eller in the lineup, we've got a couple openings on the roster. Maybe Pacioretty/White/Maxwell can step up. Maybe they can't. Maybe they'll be asked to in spite of whether they can or can't. And it doesn't have to make a team a "Cup contender" to add a decent bottom-6 veteran to improve on that situation. And at the same time to help insure against other young players like Boyd or Eller stumbling a bit.

We can't know if it will truly help or not. Some people (myself included) thought it was pointless to trade for Moore. But he helped. Sometimes those moves turn out to be meaningless, sometimes they help, sometimes you can't really say for sure. It's bottom-6 forwards, and it doesn't turn a non-contender into a contender. But when 2 or 3 NHL teams are separated by 1 or 2 points on the final day of the season trying to get the last playoff spot, then every little bit of investment you make towards those 1 or 2 points might mean something.

The thing is, we have open roster spots, and we *should* have an easy $1M in cap space to spend on this kind of insurance policy. Why not take it out? How can it hurt? The worst case is that one of White/Maxwell/Paciorietty gets to play an extra full year in the minors? That the player we get doesn't help us much (and could be traded a la Moore at the deadline for a 2nd-3rd round pick perhaps?)...

No need to make this into something dramatic. It's not about contention. It's just a little bit of extra colouring around the edges that should almost be a no-brainer, really, if the price is right.
Thank you. I agree.

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07-27-2010, 02:55 PM
  #128
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I still don't understand why you guys are arguing about Boyd vs Belanger, when Eller is clearly the one who gets the third line center duty from now on.

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07-27-2010, 02:58 PM
  #129
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Gomez . 7.3 million that's who .
Richiebottles at it again!!! I'm so happy you read these boards and realized you had new, original ideas to share that prompted you to sign up!

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07-27-2010, 02:58 PM
  #130
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Why commit money to an older player like belanger who is probably at the end of his career when you can pay a player 1/4th the price who's young, has shown nothing but good things in the nhl, who is as good a faceoff man and isn't that far off in terms of offense from belanger.

After all neither of the two will make us cup contenders. Signing Belanger is just a quick fix signing, something Gainey was guilty of, something which people like you complained about. Boyd is a good solution for now, but will be a long term solution. Committing money to Belanger at his age and when he really doesn't make that much a difference to our line up is a wasted investment when you don't have the cap room.

The only 3rd line center I wanted this off-season was Malhotra, I'd prefer Boyd at this point and would have been extremely disappointed if Gauthier would have signed Belanger.
Well, I would have been disappointed if Gauthier had signed Belanger at July 1st money too.

There's nothing wrong with a "quick fix" if it comes at the right price. We're neither a superpower team that doesn't need any fixes, nor a rebuilding team that can eschew them in favour of a longer view. We could definitely benefit from a quick fix like Belanger.

I've liked Boyd since junior, and have high hopes for him and Eller too. But still, they're just hopes. Two organizations cast Boyd off, despite what any fans might say about him. There is risk in relying on these guys. There's risk in anything. But if the opportunity is there to mitigate that risk at essentially no cost, why not do so?

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07-27-2010, 02:58 PM
  #131
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How the **** do you know that? Uve prolly never seen him or hardly seen him play. And he hasnt played a game with us yet. Keep talking out of your @ss!
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Why commit money to an older player like belanger who is probably at the end of his career when you can pay a player 1/4th the price who's young, has shown nothing but good things in the nhl, who is as good a faceoff man and isn't that far off in terms of offense from belanger.

After all neither of the two will make us cup contenders. Signing Belanger is just a quick fix signing, something Gainey was guilty of, something which people like you complained about. Boyd is a good solution for now, but will be a long term solution. Committing money to Belanger at his age and when he really doesn't make that much a difference to our line up is a wasted investment when you don't have the cap room.

The only 3rd line center I wanted this off-season was Malhotra, I'd prefer Boyd at this point and would have been extremely disappointed if Gauthier would have signed Belanger.
So apparently, you guys are not worried at all. If Gomez or Plekanec is injured, Boyd will be our 2nd line center, he'll suddenly metamorphose himself into an offensive force because he has the "potential" and we'll still be a very strong team.

In French, we call this "jovialisme".

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07-27-2010, 03:04 PM
  #132
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The priority, to me, wasn't to find a 3rd line center. It was to find some veterans with some scoring ability to play with Eller and Boyd on this 3rd line. Lapierre playing with these two is far from being the ideal scenario. And now that Trotter is going to Europe, I wonder who the hell could step up from the AHL and play there. Pacioretty? . Don't make me laugh. It's hilarious how people are still repeating the same bullcrap as they were last summer, actually thinking Pacioretty will bring the scoring presence Eller will need. Eller is already a better player than Pacioretty.
You're right, Eller is a better player than MaxPac. But nothing says that Pacioretty couldn't be more successful playing with a guy like Eller.

'Who is Eller going to play with' is what worries me the most. Here's a guy who needs to keep up his development in the NHL and his line teammates will determine his progression rate. Partnering him with experienced checkers such as Travis Moen can't be very effective for his playmaking while having him centering a couple of offensively talented rookies on a 3rd line might become disastrous against a top experienced checking line.

A dream line, as far as I'm concerned, would have been AK and Boyd. Both Eller and Boyd are good two-way players and adding Kostitsyn would have given this line more offensive strengths. But since AK belongs in the top 6, I would rather see Pacioretty, although I expect him to start in Hamilton, than an offense-deficient Moen.

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07-27-2010, 03:04 PM
  #133
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Well, I would have been disappointed if Gauthier had signed Belanger at July 1st money too.
I would have to and I still think he will get 2 million which imo is too much.

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There's nothing wrong with a "quick fix" if it comes at the right price. We're neither a superpower team that doesn't need any fixes, nor a rebuilding team that can eschew them in favour of a longer view. We could definitely benefit from a quick fix like Belanger.
Your absolutley correct about the correct price. But we have 4.7 million in cap space left. We have Eller and Boyd at center, as well as Lapierre at center(if Martin chooses to put him there). Bringing in Belanger seems useless at this point because it's pretty obvious that Eller will be used as the third line center.

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I've liked Boyd since junior, and have high hopes for him and Eller too. But still, they're just hopes. Two organizations cast Boyd off, despite what any fans might say about him. There is risk in relying on these guys. There's risk in anything. But if the opportunity is there to mitigate that risk at essentially no cost, why not do so?
Exactly, so what's the problem(not assuming you have one, just a rhetorical question).

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07-27-2010, 03:11 PM
  #134
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Richiebottles at it again!!! I'm so happy you read these boards and realized you had new, original ideas to share that prompted you to sign up!
I wondered when you would be back . Dont hate on Richie Dont hate .

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07-27-2010, 03:11 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
So apparently, you guys are not worried at all. If Gomez or Plekanec is injured, Boyd will be our 2nd line center, he'll suddenly metamorphose himself into an offensive force because he has the "potential" and we'll still be a very strong team.

In French, we call this "jovialisme".
And what about Eller, forgot about him already ?

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07-27-2010, 03:11 PM
  #136
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You're right, Eller is a better player than MaxPac. But nothing says that Pacioretty couldn't be more successful playing with a guy like Eller.

'Who is Eller going to play with' is what worries me the most. Here's a guy who needs to keep up his development in the NHL and his line teammates will determine his progression rate. Partnering him with experienced checkers such as Travis Moen can't be very effective for his playmaking while having him centering a couple of offensively talented rookies on a 3rd line might become disastrous against a top experienced checking line.

A dream line, as far as I'm concerned, would have been AK and Boyd. Both Eller and Boyd are good two-way players and adding Kostitsyn would have given this line more offensive strengths. But since AK belongs in the top 6, I would rather see Pacioretty, although I expect him to start in Hamilton, than an offense-deficient Moen.
The danger I see with Eller, is that he may be rushed to the NHL because we have no other options on the 3rd line, without the tools or teammates to succeed.

It's easy to see this scenario happening : Around Christmas time, Eller is still not producing, so we acquire a 3rd line center via trade. Eller is sent back to Hamilton, and will have "Pacioretty kind" of success there. Then next year, we'll all be worried about his development, and we'll blame PG for rushing him into the NHL. Of course, it will be totally forgotten that the year before, 95% of the posters here thought Eller was "NHL ready", and that "Eller is NHL ready" had become at that time the most over-used sentence on the Habs board.

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07-27-2010, 03:12 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
So apparently, you guys are not worried at all. If Gomez or Plekanec is injured, Boyd will be our 2nd line center, he'll suddenly metamorphose himself into an offensive force because he has the "potential" and we'll still be a very strong team.

In French, we call this "jovialisme".
If one of them gets injured we have Eller( who is gonna be the 3rd line center btw), and then Boyd can be bumped up to 3rd line, and we also have Pyatt who plays center who can be your 4th line center..White, Lappy(who can center your fourth line as well). We actually have depth for once, and its going to come from the young kids. PG is thinking 2 or three seasons down the line, im calling it; look at the young kids to get lots of ice time, and expect a lot of call ups.. they gotta develope sometime.

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07-27-2010, 03:13 PM
  #138
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I would have to and I still think he will get 2 million which imo is too much.
Well, I'm thinking (wild-ass guessing really) that he wants $2M. But so did Moore last year. And it's almost August now. I agree that it would be too much, and I'd pass at that price. But say desperation set in, eventually. Would you take him or Moore for $1.2M, say?
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Your absolutley correct about the correct price. But we have 4.7 million in cap space left. We have Eller and Boyd at center, as well as Lapierre at center(if Martin chooses to put him there). Bringing in Belanger seems useless at this point because it's pretty obvious that Eller will be used as the third line center.
Interestingly, what you said just underlines to me how useful it would be to bring a player like Belanger in! Eller hasn't played in the NHL yet. Boyd has been a castaway, and I have sometimes thought he'd make a better winger. Pyatt makes a better winger too. Lapierre very definitely belongs on the wing IMHO. Now, it's not impossible that all of that stuff could sort itself out to our advantage, and all those players will pull through and meet our expectations/hopes. But... what if they don't? We don't really have a fallback that I have confidence in. I'd have confidence in Moore or Belanger. I'd rather have the confidence. Again, at the right price.
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Exactly, so what's the problem(not assuming you have one, just a rhetorical question).
Possibly no problem, so long as you'd be happy signing Moore or Belanger at a reduced rate, say $1.2M, in the hypothetical situation that they became so desperate as to accept that at some point.

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07-27-2010, 03:15 PM
  #139
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I wouldn't blame Moore or Belanger for seeking larger-ish deals, $6M/3yrs something like that for Belanger. That's how the "old NHL under the new CBA" worked. Guys like him would get that on the first 3 days of free agency. Times they are a-changin', though.

Players/agents could still hope to luck into the previous paradigm on July 1st. Then maybe they could dream/delude themselves into thinking that after a few dominoes like Kovalchuk or Gagne fell, teams would then be ready to start competing more seriously for the players at the lower tiers again. Or maybe they even buy into the myth that teams will somehow pay/overpay for guys they don't really want/need just to reach the cap floor? Doesn't happen.

But Moore already faced this last year, and he and Belanger had probably better soon resign himself to the same reality.

Price is not signed, so it makes me think the Habs aren't going to completely hand him the keys to the vault. That means the team probaly does have ample cap space to add another player at $1M-or-so. Bear in mind, that salary would not be much different than what rookies like White or Maxwell or Pacioretty would get.

So yeah, if a guy like Belanger or Moore was still stuck looking for work in late August, I think the Habs would be nuts not to offer them that money on that roster spot. The margin of error in the league is slim. Sure, we like to hope that Eller will step in. But there isn't exactly a clear alternative to him either. If he's not ready, what then? Having an experienced backup plan would seem like an obvious and smart move.

But Gauthier is right to play it cool in the meantime, if that is what he's doing.
But guys like Pyatt and Lapierre have pretty much taken care of the checking 3rd line, last season. So there is in fact an alternative to Eller with plenty of checkers on the bottom 6, including Darche, Moen, Boyd (whose face-offs % is pretty good). Some would like to see Desharnais given a chance; there'd be no room for even a slight chance for him if Belanger/Moore would have been hired.

I think there are too many possibilities on the bottom 6 and adding another checker would only prevent a youngster to pursue his development in the NHL or stop Eller from growing on a more productive 3rd line as you would simply not hire an experienced checker such as Belanger only to give him 4th line minutes.

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07-27-2010, 03:18 PM
  #140
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The danger I see with Eller, is that he may be rushed to the NHL because we have no other options on the 3rd line, without the tools or teammates to succeed.
It's easy to see this scenario happening : Around Christmas time, Eller is still not producing, so we acquire a 3rd line center via trade. Eller is sent back to Hamilton, and will have "Pacioretty kind" of success there. Then next year, we'll all be worried about his development, and we'll blame PG for rushing him into the NHL. Of course, it will be totally forgotten that the year before, 95% of the posters here thought Eller was "NHL ready", and that "Eller is NHL ready" had become at that time the most over-used sentence on the Habs board.
St louis orginaztion said he was NHL ready this year, so did all the fans, they were actually really excited to see him play this year, and very dissapoitned to see him go. So dont tell me that he's not NHL ready, ill take theyre perspective on this rather than your any day. How can people be so GD negative about everything?. Its really unhealthy.

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07-27-2010, 03:19 PM
  #141
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So apparently, you guys are not worried at all. If Gomez or Plekanec is injured, Boyd will be our 2nd line center, he'll suddenly metamorphose himself into an offensive force because he has the "potential" and we'll still be a very strong team.

In French, we call this "jovialisme".
We have both eller and boyd. Boyd who had 24 points last season, as compared to belanger's what? 26 points? Worlds apart offensively these 2 are. Boyd still has more upside and can keep improving, where as belanger is like 32-33 and is already on a decline points wise. Your argument that one will do x amount better on the second line makes no sense.

Get over it, he's french Canadian, he's one of us, and we don't need him. You're the kind of fan that is killing this team. If his name was bellangrino, you wouldn't give a **** about him and everyone here knows it.

In French, we call this being a "mongol" .

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07-27-2010, 03:20 PM
  #142
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We have both eller and boyd. Boyd who had 24 points last season, as compared to belanger's what? 26 points? Worlds apart offensively these 2 are. Boyd still has more upside and can keep improving, where as belanger is like 32-33 and is already on a decline points wise. Your argument that one will do x amount better on the second line makes no sense.

Get over it, he's french Canadian, he's one of us, and we don't need him. You're the kind of fan that is killing this team. If his name was bellangrino, you wouldn't give a **** about him and everyone here knows it.

In French, we call you "mongol" .
owned!

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07-27-2010, 03:22 PM
  #143
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Why commit money to an older player like belanger who is probably at the end of his career when you can pay a player 1/4th the price who's young, has shown nothing but good things in the nhl, who is as good a faceoff man and isn't that far off in terms of offense from belanger.

After all neither of the two will make us cup contenders. Signing Belanger is just a quick fix signing, something Gainey was guilty of, something which people like you complained about. Boyd is a good solution for now, but will be a long term solution. Committing money to Belanger at his age and when he really doesn't make that much a difference to our line up is a wasted investment when you don't have the cap room.

The only 3rd line center I wanted this off-season was Malhotra, I'd prefer Boyd at this point and would have been extremely disappointed if Gauthier would have signed Belanger.
Everything you said makes complete sense. Belanger is just another one of these players that a TSN roundtable talks up to the point of absurdity, making them seem much better than they actually are. Has Belanger actually helped anyone win anything? Ever? No. He just happens to be Quebecois, a good faceoff man, and feisty. Big deal. I'm tired of picking up 1 year fill-in players every year, knowing full well we'll lose them the next. Belanger would just be another incarnation of Bonk, Smolinski, Metropolit, Yanic Perreault, etc.,. I'm actually excited to finally see a bunch of young guys give 'er a go this coming year. Eller, Subban, Boyd, Pyatt, Lapierre maybe Avtsin and Engqvist... this is more like it. Yeah they'll make mistakes, but honestly who cares if you're probably going to finish 7th or 8th anyway. They'll all grow together, and there's already a good team chemisty there that lack of experience won't be as noticed. Bottom line is that there's no point in spending extra money on veteran players unless you're a couple of players away from contending for a cup, which as stands we are not. You pick up those types when you're at the trade deadline and the team is playing awesome. Until then, going ahead with our youngsters is the way to go.

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07-27-2010, 03:23 PM
  #144
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St louis orginaztion said he was NHL ready this year, so did all the fans, they were actually really excited to see him play this year, and very dissapoitned to see him go. So dont tell me that he's not NHL ready, ill take theyre perspective on this rather than your any day. How can people be so GD negative about everything?. Its really unhealthy.
I'm not saying he's not NHL ready. All I'm saying is it's a very optimistic but dangerous gamble to assume he is, without any "plan B".

If he's that much NHL ready, why wasn't he on the Blues roster last year? That 7 games span was enough to make him ready for a regular, 3rd line role? Or did he suddenly became ready during the summer???

I HOPE he is ready, but unlike most of you, I don't take it as granted. And since I want the Habs to be a contender, I don't think it's responsible to start the year with unproven rookies on key roles.

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07-27-2010, 03:24 PM
  #145
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Everything you said makes complete sense. Belanger is just another one of these players that a TSN roundtable talks up to the point of absurdity, making them seem much better than they actually are. Has Belanger actually helped anyone win anything? Ever? No. He just happens to be Quebecois, a good faceoff man, and feisty. Big deal. I'm tired of picking up 1 year fill-in players every year, knowing full well we'll lose them the next. Belanger would just be another incarnation of Bonk, Smolinski, Metropolit, Yanic Perreault, etc.,. I'm actually excited to finally see a bunch of young guys give 'er a go this coming year. Eller, Subban, Boyd, Pyatt, Lapierre maybe Avtsin and Engqvist... this is more like it. Yeah they'll make mistakes, but honestly who cares if you're probably going to finish 7th or 8th anyway. They'll all grow together, and there's already a good team chemisty there that lack of experience won't be as noticed. Bottom line is that there's no point in spending extra money on veteran players unless you're a couple of players away from contending for a cup, which as stands we are not. You pick up those types when you're at the trade deadline and the team is playing awesome. Until then, going ahead with our youngsters is the way to go.

your post makes too much sense my friend. the whiners and negative fans won't understand this.

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07-27-2010, 03:25 PM
  #146
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I'm not saying he's not NHL ready. All I'm saying is it's a very optimistic but dangerous gamble to assume he is, without any "plan B".

If he's that much NHL ready, why wasn't he on the Blues roster last year? That 7 games span was enough to make him ready for a regular, 3rd line role? Or did he suddenly became ready during the summer???
I HOPE he is ready, but unlike most of you, I don't take it as granted. And since I want the Habs to be a contender, I don't think it's responsible to start the year with unproven rookies on key roles.
why wasnt subban on our roster? he was clearly nhl ready.. he played 3-4 games in the season. your point is moot.

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07-27-2010, 03:27 PM
  #147
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We have both eller and boyd. Boyd who had 24 points last season, as compared to belanger's what? 26 points? Worlds apart offensively these 2 are. Boyd still has more upside and can keep improving, where as belanger is like 32-33 and is already on a decline points wise. Your argument that one will do x amount better on the second line makes no sense.

Get over it, he's french Canadian, he's one of us, and we don't need him. You're the kind of fan that is killing this team. If his name was bellangrino, you wouldn't give a **** about him and everyone here knows it.

In French, we call this being a "mongol" .
Bélanger just got a 41 points season, his best ever. Check your stats before saying non-senses.

His offensive production has steadily been around 35 points per year since 2002.

And of course, someone has to bring the French argument.

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07-27-2010, 03:29 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Bélanger just got a 41 points season, his best ever. Check your stats before saying non-senses.

His offensive production has steadily been around 35 points per year since 2002.

And of course, someone has to bring the French argument.
common man dont ******** us...we're not dumb and we're not blind. If his name was Bellangino like the other poster said, you wouldnt give a **** about him.

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07-27-2010, 03:30 PM
  #149
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by Max Levine View Post
But guys like Pyatt and Lapierre have pretty much taken care of the checking 3rd line, last season. So there is in fact an alternative to Eller with plenty of checkers on the bottom 6, including Darche, Moen, Boyd (whose face-offs % is pretty good). Some would like to see Desharnais given a chance; there'd be no room for even a slight chance for him if Belanger/Moore would have been hired.

I think there are too many possibilities on the bottom 6 and adding another checker would only prevent a youngster to pursue his development in the NHL or stop Eller from growing on a more productive 3rd line as you would simply not hire an experienced checker such as Belanger only to give him 4th line minutes.
But we only have 11 forwards + Darche really locked into the lineup. With $1.7M left to spare if Price gets $3M.

Do you think ALL of those players will meet expectations? Do you think we will never have any injuries?

I don't really get it. There is room to add a Belanger/Moore without in any way affecting those other players. They will earn their ice or fail to, and it is only to our benefit if it turns out that Belanger/Moore is better than them and hence ends up playing more for us.

It is indeed really only the likes of Desharnais, Maxwell, White, Pacioretty who are affected. Yet there is still possibly a spot open to them, and there WILL still be injury opportunities, even then. They are all waiver exempt. I don't think we should be giving anybody a chance. It's up to them to seize it. I don't think any of them is better than Belanger/Moore at the present time. And our team should be prioritizing the present. It won't hurt any of those players to start in the minors again, if it comes to that. In fact, I'd lean towards saying it would be better for them anyway, since with or without Belanger/Moore, they'd still just 12th/13th forwards with us, and the added development time in the minors can never hurt.

Although it's all still a little bit silly to argue in too much detail about all this, since it still hinges on the perhaps-never-realized hypothesis that Belanger/Moore become desperate enough to take bargain salaries from us.

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07-27-2010, 03:31 PM
  #150
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Ohashi is now going to come in and try to twist things around and claim that Partisan has a legitimate reason to think such an opinion and will clarify Partisan's point with some play on words by saying winning cups and contending for cups = two different things blah blah....after which partisan will come in and say "yah that's what I meant"

Then all we need is Jaybee, nittany and earl to come in and agree and complain about Price, Gauthier and Timmins.
Well, since I hate to disappoint, here goes...

Having a good third/fourth line centre is a reasonable argument for strength and depth on paper, and thus as a Cup "contender". I think this is where Partisan was trying to go.

Conversely, not having a Stanley Cup ring is not a valid argument against a player's worth or potential to contribute to a Stanley Cup "contender", which seems to be precisely what you tried to slide on in there.

And I don't even think we should/should have go/gone after Belanger necessarily. He would be a 4th liner, and probably too expensive to be used/signed as one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
I disagree. I think over the years, players like Madden, Pahlsson, Jordan Staal, Filppula, Matt Cullen, etc. all played major roles in the Stanley Cup runs. In fact, take a look at the rosters of the last 20 teams that won the cup, and you'll find much more depth at center than the Habs currently have.
I never said anything to the contrary. Simply, when teams have come short of winning the Cup, most discussion revolves around the performance of the goalie(s), or players like Crosby, Malkin, Thornton, etc. Very rarely is a big deal made of "what could have been if they had a John Madden on their team", or something like that. Similarly, when teams win Cups, again, it's usually/mostly the play of the goaltender or players like Toews, Crosby, Zetterberg, etc that are discussed, and rarely 3rd liners (obviously not "never", see: Claude Lemieux's Conn Smythe in '94/95 for example).

Never said they weren't important pieces of the puzzle, just not the MAIN ones that get discussed after the fact.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 07-27-2010 at 03:40 PM.
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