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05-26-2004, 04:00 PM
  #1
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Research is important

There's a new article on the Blues page about the 1999 draft. A little bit of research goes a long way.

From the story:
Phil Osaer, G -- 7th Round, 203rd Overall (CCHA - Ferris State University)
Status: NHL Bust
NHL Games: 0

Osaer was cut loose by the Blues because of his failure to impress at Worcester, and he is currently trying to catch on with the Rangers organization, on a PTO with AHL Hartford. His regular-season numbers for the Wolfpack were decent (8-10-2, 2.22 GAA, .913 save percentage), but he hasn't played a minute of Hartford's playoff run.


Osaer was signed by the Rangers mid way through his PTO with Hartford, and the reason he hasn't play in the playoffs is he's out for the season after knee surgery.

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05-26-2004, 04:10 PM
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Hemingway held out of the first week of training camp in 2003 before signing with the Blues, and that holdout ultimately cost him a chance to establish himself at Worcester. He did play 13 games with the IceCats (2-0-2, 11 PIM, +1), but it was with Peoria where he truly established himself as an up-and-coming young player
Hemingway played in the scrimage tournament that takes place the 1st week of camp.

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05-26-2004, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 210
There's a new article on the Blues page about the 1999 draft. A little bit of research goes a long way.

From the story:
Phil Osaer, G -- 7th Round, 203rd Overall (CCHA - Ferris State University)
Status: NHL Bust
NHL Games: 0

Osaer was cut loose by the Blues because of his failure to impress at Worcester, and he is currently trying to catch on with the Rangers organization, on a PTO with AHL Hartford. His regular-season numbers for the Wolfpack were decent (8-10-2, 2.22 GAA, .913 save percentage), but he hasn't played a minute of Hartford's playoff run.


Osaer was signed by the Rangers mid way through his PTO with Hartford, and the reason he hasn't play in the playoffs is he's out for the season after knee surgery.
If Osaer was signed by the Rangers, he's not listed as a part of the Rangers' organization on their web site.

Take a look HERE. No Osaer.

Hartford's website also lists Osaer as being on a PTO.

Go HERE, click on "Team Roster," then click on "Phil Osaer."

I think the main point of the article was simply that Osaer isn't a Blues' prospect any longer; that being the case, I think it'd be a safe bet that most Blues' fans who read the article probably don't really care if Osaer was signed by the Rangers or not.

After reading 210's post initially, I looked into the two most obvious places where one might find some evidence that Osaer was signed by the Rangers, and found nothing. I'd be willing to bet that the article -- which, in my opinion, is pretty well-written and thorough in all other aspects -- was researched by the writer in a similar fashion.

Maybe instead of nit-picking over details on players no longer in the Blues' system, we could acknowledge the article for being the first contribution of any substance to this page in a long while?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
Hemingway played in the scrimage tournament that takes place the 1st week of camp.
http://www.stlouisblues.com/history/...nsactions.html

Scroll down to the bottom, and look at October 10th.

Hemingway was signed after training camp started (as was Byrne). My recollection of the situation was that Byrne was willing to play in Traverse City, whereas Hemingway was not, and I also recall that Hemingway was not present for the first couple of days, at least, of camp.

Perhaps the author recalls the start of the year in the same way; in any case, I think we could all agree that Hemingway didn't exactly set the Blues' camp, or the AHL, on fire in his first few weeks and months as a pro.

Since you guys are criticizing, I think it's safe to assume that neither of you wrote that article. That being the case, I'm sure this page could use both of you as writers.

First we've got posters fighting with each other; now we've got people criticizing minor details in articles. Where have I seen this kind of stuff before...

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05-26-2004, 08:27 PM
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Hemingway was in the Blues camp on day 1.

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05-26-2004, 08:37 PM
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It took exactly 15 seconds to find a reputable link that showed that Osaer was signed (and recalled) by the Rangers on 11/23/03 and was reasigned to Hartford on 11/24/03.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl_network/teams/...41&hubName=NYR

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05-26-2004, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrussianBlue
Since you guys are criticizing, I think it's safe to assume that neither of you wrote that article. That being the case, I'm sure this page could use both of you as writers.
BTW, I was "fired" from the page without even so much as an e-mail explaining why.

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05-27-2004, 03:40 AM
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At least it's an article. I'm glad to see some sort of activity on that page.

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05-27-2004, 06:17 AM
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I agree, but if you look at the main page it appears that every team has one looking back at that draft.

To me that has very little to do with the current crop of prospects...

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05-27-2004, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 210
I agree, but if you look at the main page it appears that every team has one looking back at that draft.

To me that has very little to do with the current crop of prospects...

Maybe that is the whole point! Look back 5 years ago, see who was drafted and why, and then analyze who has progressed and who did not. Try to look for areas which might improve the future drafts. ... It is interesting to see which kids have moved along and which have become a bust ....Certainly Karvanov, Byrne, Pohl and Hemmingway have progressed more than the second and third selections Smrek and Starlings ......So much for putting a lot of emphasis in which round a kid goes in!

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05-28-2004, 06:12 AM
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The problem is that there are a lot of teams that don't have the same scouts/GMs in place as back then so it doesn't mean all that much.

It is fun to look back, but that info is pretty easily found in other places.

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05-28-2004, 09:04 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 210
The problem is that there are a lot of teams that don't have the same scouts/GMs in place as back then so it doesn't mean all that much.

It is fun to look back, but that info is pretty easily found in other places.

I don't think the issue is the ease or difficulty in finding the info; is it very accessible. The value in looking back to see the success or lack of success, can and should be helpful in future drafts. The Blues 1999 drafts that are still considered prospects, Pohl, Byrne and Hemmingway all went on to college after that draft and guys like Smrek and Stallings (who went early) are no longer in the picture. ... This is the type of info which may or may not prove useful in the future.
Look at all the kids drafted and try to determine which kids move on and and which kids do not, and WHY!

The draft has often been a crap-shoot by some teams with many picks selected "on a feeling" or a "hunch". Hockey management, in my opinion is not nearly as advanced as say NFL management and anything that can be done to "professionalize" the process should be done.

All one has to do is look at the Collective Bargaining Agreement of the two respective leagues to see that the NFL is way ahead of the NHL...

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05-28-2004, 09:07 AM
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What a horrendous comparison.

The NFL drafts players after they finish college right as they're getting to enter the NFL.

The NHL drafts players at 18 years old when most are still years away from the NHL.

That, not a lack of whatever it is you think the NHL lacks, is exactly why both the MLB and the NHL drafts are more of a crapshooot than the NFL and the NBA drafts.

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05-28-2004, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
What a horrendous comparison.

The NFL drafts players after they finish college right as they're getting to enter the NFL.

The NHL drafts players at 18 years old when most are still years away from the NHL.

That, not a lack of whatever it is you think the NHL lacks, is exactly why both the MLB and the NHL drafts are more of a crapshooot than the NFL and the NBA drafts.

Stich,
You are correct, there is a huge difference when drafting 18 year olds vs. 22 year olds. MLB and NHL are certainly at a disadvantage here and is duly noted.

However, I do believe the management in MLB, NBA, and NFL are more advanced in terms of running their respective leagues in a profitable manner. I also think the management in the NFL, in particular, is far more sophisticated in all phases of management including the draft process.

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05-28-2004, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_heart
However, I do believe the management in MLB, NBA, and NFL are more advanced in terms of running their respective leagues in a profitable manner.
The difference in those leagues isn't the ownership or even the league office. The reason why those leagues are better off financially is because their CBA's are more owner-friendly. The reason why their CBA's are more owner-friendly is because the NBAPA and the NFLPA are weak. The MLBPA is strong than both of them which is why the MLB's CBA is almost as much as a joke as the NHL's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_heart
I also think the management in the NFL, in particular, is far more sophisticated in all phases of management including the draft process.
I just dont see any evidence to support this.... at all really.

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05-28-2004, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_heart
I also think the management in the NFL, in particular, is far more sophisticated in all phases of management including the draft process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
I just dont see any evidence to support this.... at all really.
I sort of agree wirth purple_heart here.

The NFL puts potential draftees through all kinds of tests and evaluations, and they have the Combine where everyone is evaluated under the same conditions. The NFL Draft is all computerized, categorized, organized, analyzed, filed away, and analyzed some more... and most importantly, covered like few other sporting events are.

I think that's probably what purple_heart meant by saying that the NFL drafting process is more "sophisticated" than that of the NHL. Sure, the NHL subjects potential draftees to tests and evaluations, but football players get that stuff in spades, from the time they're in elementary school. In the stuck-up little burg I live in, if your kid isn't in the local youth tackle league -- and starring in it -- by the time he hits sixth grade, he's got two chances of playing football in high school: slim and none.

But I digress somewhat...

Football is a very structured kind of game, lending itself to set pays and game plans. Hockey is a much more spontaneous and creative, "on-the-fly" kind of game. And the emphasis placed on "intangibles" and "hockey sense" in the NHL scouting process reflects that.

When was the last time you heard Chris Berman or Mel Kiper talk about Isaiah Moses Ultrahyped's "football sense?"

But every time a hockey draft discussion comes along, Crusty O'Scout will say, "you know, Joe Snuffy couldn't shoot a puck into Lake Michigan from the end of Navy Pier... but man, has he got hockey sense." And everyone smiles, nods in agreement, and the next issue of "The Hockey News" touts Joe Snuffy as a blue-chipper.

====================

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05-29-2004, 02:25 AM
  #16
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The NHL has a combine too. In fact, it just ended today.

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05-29-2004, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
The NHL has a combine too. In fact, it just ended today.
It's so much harder to scout for the NHL, and it's easier for spectators to follow the progress of NFL draftees. There for the NFL process seems to be much more "sophisticated".

Following NHL prospect is so much more exciting, but the casual fan doesn't even get a snif of this. This is another part where the NHL must improve, they need to figure out a way to make the draft more marketable, and advertise the young talent that is yet to enter the league.

Can you believe that 75% of the people who call themselves hockey fans don't even know the slightest bit about Sidney Crosby (I know he's only 16-17)?
And yet he's supposed to change the way the game is played.

I know this is a whole new can of worms, but the NHL also needs to help interest in the "Frozen Four" or college hockey in general. There's a lot of work to be done and Bettman just isn't the guy.

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05-29-2004, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
The NHL has a combine too. In fact, it just ended today.
...and how many people knew about it?

That's what I thought. And that's sort of my point.

Cu_Sa1 makes a good point in that the NHL does zippo to promote interest in things like the Frozen Four, the major junior league playoffs and Memorial Cup, the WJC, the USHL playoffs, etc.

These are the places where the draft picks will be coming from, and where their skills are showcased, but the NHL does nothing to help put those events out front of the public, especially here in the States.

The NFL and NBA sell their drafts and draft lotteries, and they draw millions of viewers. The NHL can't hope to match those numbers, but they can do a much better job of marketing their draft, and promoting their draft and the events leading up to it, to their fan base. I didn't see or hear anything about this NHL combine in any media, for example.

Personally, I'd pay $99 for a pay-per-view of the entire draft -- both days. I'm sure lots of other draftniks would as well. There's no reason why the NHL couldn't work with CBC, or some other Canadian network that provides much more extensive draft coverage than we get here, and make it available in the States on a pay-per-view basis.

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05-29-2004, 10:48 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Weidler
...and how many people knew about it?

That's what I thought.
Fans not knowing about the combine doesn't make the NHL less sophisticated in their drafting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Weidler
Cu_Sa1 makes a good point in that the NHL does zippo to promote interest in things like the Frozen Four, the major junior league playoffs and Memorial Cup, the WJC, the USHL playoffs, etc.
I've never once seen an NFL produced promotion/commercial for college football.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Weidler
The NFL and NBA sell their drafts and draft lotteries, and they draw millions of viewers. The NHL can't hope to match those numbers, but they can do a much better job of marketing their draft, and promoting their draft and the events leading up to it, to their fan base.
The NHL can't come close to matching those numbers because the NHL drafts players that for the most part are 2+ years from being on the team. This is the same reason why the MLB draft draws no attention... less than the NHL actually.

As I have said in the past, it would be better for the league to draft players once their ready to go pro. Unfortunately, the only thing that would ever cause that to happen would be the CHL and the NCAA creating rules that state that drafted players lose their eligibility to play in the league. The CHL will never do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Weidler
I didn't see or hear anything about this NHL combine in any media, for example.
I read a couple articles that talked about it... specifically one about Malkin deciding not to show up to it.

Anyway... pretty much every issue you just brought up is marketing related and none of it really has anything to do with whether or not the drafting is more or less sophisticated in the NHL.


Last edited by degroat*: 05-29-2004 at 10:55 AM.
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05-29-2004, 08:50 PM
  #20
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[QUOTE=Stich]The difference in those leagues isn't the ownership or even the league office. The reason why those leagues are better off financially is because their CBA's are more owner-friendly. The reason why their CBA's are more owner-friendly is because the NBAPA and the NFLPA are weak. QUOTE]


Stich,
Thanks, you have supported my position perfectly. The fact that the CBA 's are "more owner-friendly" is NOT by accident; it has to do with a management who is much more capable to handle the rigors or negotiation and come out with an Agreement which allows the league to perform in a profitable manner. The NHL currently does NOT have this.

Calling the NBAPA and the NFLPA weak is silly, as the leagues now perform to the profitable satisfaction of both parties. That is the entire purpose of an acceptable and workable CBA.

The NHLPA has been smart and timely in their negotiations in the past, but that is about to come to a screaming halt.

I love the NHL and want it to continue, but many corrections must take place in oreder for it to continue. The owners have been their own worst enemy because they have simply NOT been able to control themselves.

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05-29-2004, 11:57 PM
  #21
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It's widely known that the NFLPA is very weak and while the NBA's PA doesn't have as bad of a reputation, it's also know to be weak. All you have to do is look at something like steroid testing to see how much stronger the MLBPA is than the NFLPA.

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05-30-2004, 07:50 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
It's widely known that the NFLPA is very weak and while the NBA's PA doesn't have as bad of a reputation, it's also know to be weak. All you have to do is look at something like steroid testing to see how much stronger the MLBPA is than the NFLPA.
We could debate forever which unions are considered to be strong and which are weak, but without set criteria it is meaningless.

In order for the league and the players to work profitably (for both sides), 20 of the 30 teams cannot be losing money. With the average salary at $1.7 million in the NHL and the players getting 70% of the revenues, it has reached a very serious point for the owners (as a group). Any conclusion beyond the fact that the owners have not managed their own businesses in a profitable manner would be niave. Correction is necessary..... I am not blaming the players for the current situation. They owners have caused their own problems by paying more than they can afford; it's that simple. And, now something has to be done about it.

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05-30-2004, 08:02 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Weidler
I sort of agree wirth purple_heart here.

The NFL puts potential draftees through all kinds of tests and evaluations, and they have the Combine where everyone is evaluated under the same conditions. The NFL Draft is all computerized, categorized, organized, analyzed, filed away, and analyzed some more... and most importantly, covered like few other sporting events are.
\

Good Morning All,

PB, while the NFL does have a combine, the majority of the players who are 1+2 rounders do not work out. They ask for private practices, which most teams oblidge. Few of the top picks are evaluated under the same conditions and info is not shared between teams, in hopes you learn something that someone else will not know.

Look guys, in the US, college football is almost as popular as the NFL. Many fans watch the draft to see where their former players' go, and in what round.

The NFL, still has more then a few 1st round busts, despite the age difference bewteen the players. So why people think it is more sophisticated is well beyond me.

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05-30-2004, 08:20 AM
  #24
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The NFLPA is the weakest of the 4 "major" players unions...all one needs to know is that NFL contracts are not guaranteed to see that the NFLPA is weak. Just about every time their CBA comes out the owners walk all over them.

And as for the NFL combines, that significant portion of the first and second round picks participate...only the "alleged" superstars don't.

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05-30-2004, 08:24 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_heart
We could debate forever which unions are considered to be strong and which are weak, but without set criteria it is meaningless.
Pardon the thread-jack, but I asked you a question in this thread and I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind answering.

Thanks.

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