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Old
07-29-2010, 09:05 AM
  #76
EazyB97
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
There is no real secret here.

MLSE through GM Brian Burke are attempting to buy home playoff games for the ACC Arena. As home playoff gate receipts bring in tremendous profit and make the spending all worth while for Ownership.
You mean NHL teams try and make the best team possible so they can make the most money? Shocking

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Getting the players irregardless of their cost in acquisition or salaries is meeting the objective and a case of the end justifying the means if the playoff goal is achieved.
I'm surprised you are allowed to outright lie on a regular basis here. Burke's walked away from a number of players when the bidding has gone too high.

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No one questions the contracts of a winning team only that of a losing one.
Campbell? Huet? Byfuglien? These deals got Tallon fired. Do we not consider the Stanley Cup Champs a "winning team"?

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07-29-2010, 09:13 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
You mean NHL teams try and make the best team possible so they can make the most money? Shocking

I'm surprised you are allowed to outright lie on a regular basis here. Burke's walked away from a number of players when the bidding has gone too high.
Burke still is only allowed to play within the rules of the CBA no matter how much money MLSE has and is willing to back him financially in his attempt to build a winning team.. He can only spend to the Hard Cap ceiling like any other NHL team .. Last season he incurred a $1.4 mil carry over penalty for the Leafs as a result of spending to the max.

So he can't have any player he wants but only those that combined fit below the Cap ceiling. Walking away from players is not because of want but rather because of need as there is no more Cap Space available to accommodate that acquisition.

If this will all work out no one will question Burke's spending habits, only if it fails is when its time to analyze the reasons why.

Tallon didn't get fired because of the contracts he handed out, he got fired because Ownership felt the Team was capable of better and they were right as the won the Cup.. The Salary Cap crunch is now a fallout of struggling to keep a winning team together. Toews and Kane players Tallon drafted earned full bonuses in their contracts as a result of Chicago and their own success..Hawks took a big cap hit when Toews won the Conn Smythe Trophy.


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07-29-2010, 09:14 AM
  #78
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I really only hate the Komisarek deal. The Finger deal is not good either but yeah that's not Burkes fault.

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07-29-2010, 09:16 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
You mean NHL teams try and make the best team possible so they can make the most money? Shocking
I know, eh? Now he's repeating the same stupid arguments that appear in the comments section of any and every new article released in the Greater Toronto Area. I think a lot of people would be surprised to learn that winning is more profitable than losing, since they seem to think the Leafs are losing on purpose to make a fortune. Harold isn't in charge anymore, people.

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07-29-2010, 09:19 AM
  #80
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Burke still is only allowed to play within the rules of the CBA .. He can only spend to the Hard Cap ceiling like any other NHL team .. Last season he incurred a $1.4 mil carry over penalty for the Leafs as a result of spending to the max.

So he can't have any player he wants but only those that combined fit below the Cap ceiling. Walking away from players is not because of want but rather because of need as there is no more Cap Space available to accommodate that acquisition.
So that point is useless and incorrect. I'm aware and it's still baffling how you can blatantly lie here. You've just admitted your statement was untrue. The Leafs can't "get players regardless of their cost" and it's certainly not their objective to overpay, which you claimed in that post.

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Tallon didn't get fired because of the contracts he handed out, he got fired because Ownership felt the Team was capable of better and they were right.
Most people believe the cap trouble got him fired and those contracts were a big part of it. Even if it didn't, you've still avoided the fact that those contracts were heavily criticized and that Chicago team won an awful lot of games.

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07-29-2010, 09:21 AM
  #81
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Um, Tallon got fired because he almost released Barker, Versteeg and others as UFA's. That's a MAJOR ****up.

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07-29-2010, 09:33 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
So that point is useless and incorrect. I'm aware and it's still baffling how you can blatantly lie here. You've just admitted your statement was untrue. The Leafs can't "get players regardless of their cost" and it's certainly not their objective to overpay, which you claimed in that post.
What do you mean my statement is untrue, I have no idea what your talking about.

Boston was offering Kessel $3.5-$4 mil a season as a RFA. Burke acquired him and is paying a 55 point player $5.4 mil because he believes it will help him win. The cost to acquire was high as is his contract. No other team willing to pay that price.

Mike Komisarek has a $4.5 mil Cap hit but that is because Burke front loaded his contract paying him $6 mil in real money this year. This for a player that has never reached 20 points in his NHL career yet.

Tyler Bozak base + bonus contract pays him the same potentially as Steven Stamkos, John Tavares, Taylor Hall as if he was selected 1st overall in the entry draft.. This all done to secure talent for his team by outbidding all others . Checkout who is at the Top of the NHL leader board in rookie Bonuses.. (http://www.capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=BONUSES)

JS Giguere has a $6 mil cap and $7 mil real salary this season and Burke is willing to invest that amount in potentially a backup goalie .. Most NHL teams don't spend that on their starter..

Like I said if it all works and playoffs are achieved then the end will justify the means..

It doesn't mean as you interpret it that Burke can have anyone he wants, only those he can acquire and secure that he can accommodate with the rules of the CBA. He isn't doing anything illegal he is simply using MLSE financial backing to the max in order to try and obtain winning on the ice and most importantly playoff games.

Because playoff games make FANS happy and OWNERSHIP happy simultaneously.

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07-29-2010, 09:55 AM
  #83
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What do you mean my statement is untrue, I have no idea what your talking about.

Boston was offering Kessel $3.5-$4 mil a season as a RFA. Burke acquired him and is paying a 55 point player $5.4 mil because he believes it will help him win. The cost to acquire was high as is his contract. No other team willing to pay that price.

Mike Komisarek has a $4.5 mil Cap hit but that is because Burke front loaded his contract paying him $6 mil in real money this year. This for a player that has never reached 20 points in his NHL career yet.

Tyler Bozak base + bonus contract pays him the same potentially as Steven Stamkos, John Tavares, Taylor Hall as if he was selected 1st overall in the entry draft.. This all done to secure talent for his team by outbidding all others . Checkout who is at the Top of the NHL leader board in rookie Bonuses.. (http://www.capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=BONUSES)

JS Giguere has a $6 mil cap and $7 mil real salary this season and Burke is willing to invest that amount in potentially a backup goalie .. Most NHL teams don't spend that on their starter..

Like I said if it all works and playoffs are achieved then the end will justify the means..

It doesn't mean as you interpret it that Burke can have anyone he wants, only those he can acquire and secure that he can accommodate with the rules of the CBA. He isn't doing anything illegal he is simply using MLSE financial backing to the max in order to try and obtain winning on the ice and most importantly playoff games.

Because playoff games make FANS happy and OWNERSHIP happy simultaneously.
You should really tell the full story though.

We may have Giggy this year (at which we needed a goalie) and got rid of an albatross of a contract in Jason Blake. 6 Million cap hit - 4 million cap hit = 2 million, or less then what it would of cost to bring in a veteran goaltender to be the 1B goalie for the year. Not to mention he traded an untradabele and unproductive goalie in Toskala and has 1 year less of Blakes 4 million cap hit.

Burke also traded Kubina and brought in Komi as Burke felt we had too many redundant defensemen (I'll admit I still wish we had Kubina, especially at his new contract price). I believe Kubina was making 5 million when the leafs traded him, Komi makes 4.5 million so a savings of around 1/2 a million.

Actual dollars a player is paid doesn't matter. Some teams like to front load as incentive but over the length of the contract the player still makes the same amount of money. A 3 year contract that pays 6 million then 5 million then 4 million is still the same 15 million a 5 million/year contract for 3 years is.

What Burke has done is trade the contracts off the team that he felt were not in benifit for the Leaf's and exchanged them for players that he believe are far more suited to help the team.


Last edited by TOG26: 07-29-2010 at 10:02 AM.
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07-29-2010, 09:56 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post

Tyler Bozak base + bonus contract pays him the same potentially as Steven Stamkos, John Tavares, Taylor Hall as if he was selected 1st overall in the entry draft.. This all done to secure talent for his team by outbidding all others .
The Leafs couldn't outbid all others for Bozak, I thought that you were aware of ELC rules.

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07-29-2010, 10:01 AM
  #85
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J.S. Giguere constitutes cap savings.


Blake 2 years at 4 million = 8 million
Giguere 1 year at 6 million = 6 million

Leafs save 2 million against the cap overall.


I really don't see why people are blaming Burke for making a damned good deal that saves cap space. He's not the one who signed Blake to a ridiculous contract.

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07-29-2010, 10:14 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Theodoriph View Post
J.S. Giguere constitutes cap savings.


Blake 2 years at 4 million = 8 million
Giguere 1 year at 6 million = 6 million

Leafs save 2 million against the cap overall.


I really don't see why people are blaming Burke for making a damned good deal that saves cap space. He's not the one who signed Blake to a ridiculous contract.
No one is really blaming him except the one. But, he's just trying get people riled up. You can tell because he almost never makes any sense, he just goes from one argument to the next without any real point.

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07-29-2010, 10:21 AM
  #87
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The Leafs couldn't outbid all others for Bozak, I thought that you were aware of ELC rules.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but isn't it optional what bonuses are offered in an entry level contract? So, by offrering more bonuses than other teams, would they not be outbidding them?

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07-29-2010, 11:07 AM
  #88
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but isn't it optional what bonuses are offered in an entry level contract? So, by offrering more bonuses than other teams, would they not be outbidding them?
With all of the teams bidding on Bozak I am certain that the max bonuses were included in all of the bids. It's not real money so there is no reason for teams to get picky about throwing them in.

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07-29-2010, 12:10 PM
  #89
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I don't completely agree with Mess, but some of his points are valid.

Komisarek is VASTLY overpaid. You can argue that his "market price" was $4.5m because he was a UFA, and that is indeed a valid point. But based on production, he's worth nowhere near $4.5m. Overpaying for stay-at-home defensemen is always a bad idea, because the defensive players often come cheap. Komi just doesn't have enough upside to justify that contract, and this team will suffer for it. Kubina was a better bargain at $5m, and an even better one at under $4m now.

I didn't think Beauchemin was overpaid when we signed him, but he had a horrible season. If he bounces back, he should be worth the money, but in any case, he is not needed on this squad. He can play all the minutes he wants, but he doesn't play them very effectively, so that's not much of a positive stat.

Neither of these guys did anything to help our team defense or offense.

With that said, only one season has passed, so I don't want to jump the gun, but after what I saw last year I will be surprised if I see a marked improvement based on the contributions of these two players.

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07-29-2010, 12:45 PM
  #90
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but isn't it optional what bonuses are offered in an entry level contract? So, by offrering more bonuses than other teams, would they not be outbidding them?
The CBA contains an upper limit on what bonuses can be offered on an ELC, to prevent a repeat of the Joe Thornton ELC (ironic that Boston figured out how to circumvent the rookie salary cap and later were among the most vocal about how unfair it was). I believe Bozak is close/at that upper limit, and I'd be the Leafs weren't the only team that offered that much.

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07-29-2010, 12:47 PM
  #91
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I don't completely agree with Mess, but some of his points are valid.

Komisarek is VASTLY overpaid. You can argue that his "market price" was $4.5m because he was a UFA, and that is indeed a valid point. But based on production, he's worth nowhere near $4.5m. Overpaying for stay-at-home defensemen is always a bad idea, because the defensive players often come cheap. Komi just doesn't have enough upside to justify that contract, and this team will suffer for it. Kubina was a better bargain at $5m, and an even better one at under $4m now.

I didn't think Beauchemin was overpaid when we signed him, but he had a horrible season. If he bounces back, he should be worth the money, but in any case, he is not needed on this squad. He can play all the minutes he wants, but he doesn't play them very effectively, so that's not much of a positive stat.

Neither of these guys did anything to help our team defense or offense.

With that said, only one season has passed, so I don't want to jump the gun, but after what I saw last year I will be surprised if I see a marked improvement based on the contributions of these two players.
This is exactly it. We need to see what these guys can contribute on a more balanced and organized team.

Mike Komisarek, on his game, is a beast. A game changer. Let's see if he can do that this year and then we'll talk about whether he's worth 4.5 mil. His offense is limited, but his abaility make an impact on the way each game is played is what we are paying him for. We rarely saw that from him except for in a couple of stretches.

If you've watched him play against the Leafs before, you know that this is true. Let's give him a chance to earn his salary.

Mess has been saying he's overpaid since day 1, but that has more to do with his personal agenda. Finger's only being paid one million less per year, and watch, he'll defend that contract to the death.

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07-29-2010, 12:55 PM
  #92
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What do you mean my statement is untrue, I have no idea what your talking about.
This here
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Originally Posted by Mess
Getting the players irregardless of their cost in acquisition or salaries is meeting the objective and a case of the end justifying the means if the playoff goal is achieved.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p...1#post27150071

You've said they're getting players irregardless of their cost in salary or acquisition. That's a lie. There's a cap and they've walked away from players. You're spreading BS, which has become the norm for you.

The rest of your post is essentially drivel, with a one-sided rant about 3 players on your Anti-Burke agenda, so I'll leave it for now, though it's pretty easy to pick apart a few have already started to do so. I don't see any response to the Blackhawks bad contraccts, is that your way of admitting you were story telling on that point as well?


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07-29-2010, 01:01 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Hockey Talker29 View Post
I don't completely agree with Mess, but some of his points are valid.

Komisarek is VASTLY overpaid. You can argue that his "market price" was $4.5m because he was a UFA, and that is indeed a valid point. But based on production, he's worth nowhere near $4.5m. Overpaying for stay-at-home defensemen is always a bad idea, because the defensive players often come cheap. Komi just doesn't have enough upside to justify that contract, and this team will suffer for it. Kubina was a better bargain at $5m, and an even better one at under $4m now.

I didn't think Beauchemin was overpaid when we signed him, but he had a horrible season. If he bounces back, he should be worth the money, but in any case, he is not needed on this squad. He can play all the minutes he wants, but he doesn't play them very effectively, so that's not much of a positive stat.

Neither of these guys did anything to help our team defense or offense.

With that said, only one season has passed, so I don't want to jump the gun, but after what I saw last year I will be surprised if I see a marked improvement based on the contributions of these two players.
So, after you jump the gun you say you don't want to jump the gun.

With the goaltending situation last season going into detail about the play of the defencemen is kind of pointless. Ever play in front of a goalie that you are afraid to let the other team take a shot at? It's not easy.

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07-29-2010, 01:27 PM
  #94
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but isn't it optional what bonuses are offered in an entry level contract? So, by offrering more bonuses than other teams, would they not be outbidding them?
Correct the CBA has salary Cap Base + Bonuses allowable in place.

The #1 overall pick in the entry draft is the upper max like Steven Stamkos or John Tavares received.. Tyler Bozak has the exact same contract as they do yet he is an undrafted UFA signed late developing prospect.

Offering max bonuses to me is outbidding others for player services. Teams that are not in such a desire for NHL talent and have NHL centers in place already don't need to push the limits of the ELC Cap system and bowed out of the bidding accordingly. Give Burke credit for landing Bozak, but also consider he offered him every single available penny possible in contract $$ to lure him to sign also..

Last year Leafs incurred a rookie bonus carryover penalty by these bonuses in ELC earned, and this year Bozak as Leafs #1 center you can guarantee will be receiving some of those $2.8 mil tossed out for him in his contract that Leafs must account for.. In comparison Kadri drafted #7 over and if he earned all base + bonus available of his $900k base + $850 in bonus package it would = $1.7 mil .. Kadri's entire contract is less than Bozak's bonuses alone.

Leafs salaries are out of whack based on the spending habits to build the current team and Bozak's contract is out of whack compared to those others that receive that level.

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07-29-2010, 01:28 PM
  #95
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Boston was offering Kessel $3.5-$4 mil a season as a RFA. Burke acquired him and is paying a 55 point player $5.4 mil because he believes it will help him win. The cost to acquire was high as is his contract. No other team willing to pay that price.
Kessel's been on pace for 64 and 70 point seasons the last couple years, so I'm not sure why you're call him a 55 point player. And perhaps most importantly, he's been a 35 and 42 goal scorer over a full season.

Nobody would doubt we paid a high price for him in the trade, though don't sell him short. He's well worth $5.4 million. Boston was lowballing him for cap reasons. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I remember reading Kessel's been a top 10 goalscorer in the league for two seasons now (not sure if that was by goals/game or goals/minute played). Do you really think you'd get a player like that for $3.5-$4 million?
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Mike Komisarek has a $4.5 mil Cap hit but that is because Burke front loaded his contract paying him $6 mil in real money this year. This for a player that has never reached 20 points in his NHL career yet.
Not sure why you're stressing lack of offensive production for a player who is obviously a defense-first player... Judging last year, yes, Komisarek is overpaid. However, I think we should allow him a full season before labeling him as terribly overpaid.

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JS Giguere has a $6 mil cap and $7 mil real salary this season and Burke is willing to invest that amount in potentially a backup goalie .. Most NHL teams don't spend that on their starter..
You continually bring this up, disregarding we got rid of Toskala and Blake's contract in that deal. We get a 1A goalie to help Gusty along and he's off the books next year. I think I've pointed this out to you a couple times, but I've yet to get a response.

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07-29-2010, 02:14 PM
  #96
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You continually bring this up, disregarding we got rid of Toskala and Blake's contract in that deal. We get a 1A goalie to help Gusty along and he's off the books next year. I think I've pointed this out to you a couple times, but I've yet to get a response.
I bring it up because its true.

Toskala $4 mil contract was expiring with the end of the season, doing nothing at all and simply letting him walk away as a UFA would have recaptured his $4 mil Cap space for this season. So its true I place little value on trading away a dead asset in Toskala, because his contract was ending anyways. .. Leafs were 29th in the NHL standings prior to Giggy and 29th in the standings at the end with him, so was there really a need to bring in a goalie at the trade deadline that wouldn't change the results even one position?.

When a team is willing to pay a goalie $7 mil with a $6 mil Cap Hit that places him among the elite goalies of the NHL into the top 5% of Top earners. Only Roberto Luongo, ($10 mil) + Henrik Lundqvist ($7.75 mil) make more and Miikka Kiprusoff ($ 7mil) makes the same as JS Giguere. 30 NHL starting goalies and Giggy will take home the 3rd highest salary.

http://www.capgeek.com/leaders.php?t...max_results=25

Unlike the other goalies on that Top group they're expecting to play 65+ games as the Team true #1 starter. Lundqvist and Kipper played 73 of 82 games and Luongo due to injury played only 68 last season.. While Giguere played 35 games total Leafs (15) and Ducks (20) last season.

How many games is the NHL 3rd highest paid goalie Giggy going to play this season as a 1A in Toronto, will it even be 40?.. It should be 70+ and it should be at elite personal level stats as both Henrik and Miikka post Top 10 NHL goalie stats in both GAA and SV%.

To me Giggy may have one of the worst NHL contracts for this season based on what the Team might get out of him in terms of games played and performance. He might become the highest paid NHL backup this season if Gustavsson improves and becomes the #1. You could bring in a vet backup goalie to play behind Monster and pay him less that $2 mil to play in 15 games a year.

So to me this is prime reason why Leaf Salaries and spending is out of whack, and I hope that answers your question as to why I bring it up and believe it to be true. IMO.


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07-29-2010, 02:26 PM
  #97
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I think Kessel's deal will be looked at as a steal. 5.4 million is a great price.

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07-29-2010, 02:37 PM
  #98
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I bring it up because its true.
We've gone over the differences between the team post-Toskala, so I'm not going to touch that...

But Toskala was hardly a positive presence in the locker room. If rumours of the "helicopter" trip and his uncoachability are true, there's certainly a benefit in getting him out of there quickly. Everything I've read suggests Giguere's been a solid teammate and mentor to Gusty so far.

With that aside... YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED BLAKE haha

Blake's got two years left at $4 million. So we're paying an extra $2 million this year, while saving $4 million next year.

I know you are far from a Blake fan and I don't think anyone would call Blake a great teammate.

Yes, Giguere's contract is a bit of an albatross, but you can't just make horrible contracts disappear (I personally don't think sending high-priced, NHL-calibre - Blake, not Toskala/Finger - players to the minors is good for the organization or optics for future free agents)

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07-29-2010, 02:43 PM
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Not sure why you're stressing lack of offensive production for a player who is obviously a defense-first player... Judging last year, yes, Komisarek is overpaid. However, I think we should allow him a full season before labeling him as terribly overpaid..
I'm stressing alright..

Mike Komisarek will be tied for the 11th highest paid defenseman in the NHL in 2010-11. His teammate Phaneuf is in fact the 5th highest at $7 mil..

http://www.capgeek.com/leaders.php?t...max_results=25

Last year Phaneuf in 26 games as a Leaf put up 2-8-10 points and 32 points total. His Leaf pace placing him at 32 points on a full season.

Mike Komisarek played in 34 games recording 4 assists and -9. That would have put him on pace for 10 points on the entire season with a -22 +/-.. A good portion of those games he did play in he was brutal and taking silly penalties.

Based on those performances last year did either defensemen deserve to be among the highest paid? What can we expect this season as Leafs have 2 of the Top 12 highest paid Dmen in the entire NHL on their roster this season?

You can see why MLSE Ownership is expecting playoffs when they are spending like this on talent for their team in hopes of success. You can't be among the 5 highest salaried Teams and be finishing in the draft lottery. If you do it shows your spending habits and salary structure is way out of whack for the results you get in return for your investment in players.

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07-29-2010, 03:07 PM
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FlapJackKing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
With all of the teams bidding on Bozak I am certain that the max bonuses were included in all of the bids. It's not real money so there is no reason for teams to get picky about throwing them in.
Ask the Chicago Blackhawks about it not being real money with their bonus carry-over of $4,157,753. It's real money and I'm assuming that either the bonuses were larger or easier to attain and that is why Bozak chose Toronto.

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