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Old
07-29-2010, 04:07 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
So, after you jump the gun you say you don't want to jump the gun.

With the goaltending situation last season going into detail about the play of the defencemen is kind of pointless. Ever play in front of a goalie that you are afraid to let the other team take a shot at? It's not easy.
My expectation is that there will be very little improvement.

However, I recognize that both players may be better than what we've seen so far.

I have played in front of a poor goalie. I know how it feels. But I'm not sure our goaltending was really THAT bad last year. I was very disappointed with our team defense as a whole. Sure, our goaltending was sub-par. No question about that. But it seems to me that most Leafs' fans think the defense was solid, and the goaltending was absolutely putrid.

I think the goaltending and defense were both bad. And I don't see why there might be a significant improvement, given the current personnel.

The main reason I feel this way is because I don't think Ron Wilson can coach a team like this. Our special teams are absolutely laughable, which is a direct projection of his coaching strategy, and his line combos are often bungled (Kessel w/ Blake! Are you kidding me!?).

I loved the addition of Phaneuf. I think we fleeced Calgary in that deal. But I'm not expecting us to challenge for a playoff spot until Wilson is replaced, and we start reallocating cap space to forwards, instead of inept defensemen (Komi, Beauche, and Finger).

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07-29-2010, 04:08 PM
  #102
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We've gone over the differences between the team post-Toskala, so I'm not going to touch that...

But Toskala was hardly a positive presence in the locker room. If rumours of the "helicopter" trip and his uncoachability are true, there's certainly a benefit in getting him out of there quickly. Everything I've read suggests Giguere's been a solid teammate and mentor to Gusty so far.

With that aside... YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED BLAKE haha

Blake's got two years left at $4 million. So we're paying an extra $2 million this year, while saving $4 million next year.

I know you are far from a Blake fan and I don't think anyone would call Blake a great teammate.

Yes, Giguere's contract is a bit of an albatross, but you can't just make horrible contracts disappear (I personally don't think sending high-priced, NHL-calibre - Blake, not Toskala/Finger - players to the minors is good for the organization or optics for future free agents)
Well in the sake of being accurate your quoting Blake's Cap hit numbers not what Leafs/Ducks are paying him.. Blake only makes $3 mil in real salary for the next 2 seasons so that is what he will be paid..

http://www.capgeek.com/players/display.php?id=175

Giggy makes $7 mil this year alone.. So Leafs are paying Giggy $1 mil more than they would have spent paying Blake for 2 more years of service. Ducks traded the NHL highest paid backup goalie in Giggy for a Leaf hated (myself included ) serviceable forward they will pay $6 mil over the next 2 years combined..

The logic being that a backup goalie sitting on the bench has no bearing on the NHL score when he isn't in the game but his massive Cap hit of $6 mil and high pay cheque of $7 mil are still being paid and counted for the team you can ice to make it competitive. A $1 mil backup goalie and a $5 mil Forward for the same Cap as Giggy at $6 mil >>>> advantage to the Leafs.

I suppose the Ducks figured no matter how bad Blake is even if he produces just 25 points a season and least he can dress and play in 82 games for a $4 mil cap rather than having $6 mil cap sitting on the bench.

Also Giggy has a No Movement Clause (NMC), that means no matter how poor he plays this season that full $6 mil will be counted against Leafs Salary Team Cap.. You can not waive a player off the roster with a NMC only a NTC...

Jason Blake has nothing in regards to a NTC in his contract, that makes him no different than Jeff Finger.. Leafs could demote him to the AHL and off the Salary Cap at any time they wanted to regain $4mil in Cap space.. If your willing to send Finger at $3.5 mil down than nothing stopping your from sending $4 mil Cap of Blake down. In fact its actually a benefit because MLSE would only have to pay Blake $3 mil in salary to recapture $4 mil in Salary Cap. Agreed demoting players comes at a price but if that price is to gain a playoff spot then it is well worth it, as how could anyone dispute that making the playoffs >> 1 single players situation if demoted?

Fine Giggy might be a much better teammate and mentor I'll give you that but is it really worth $6 mil Cap space and $7 mil in salary?.. If Toskala was disruptive to the team he could have been sent home and told to stay away from the rink and James Reimer could have played a handful of games down the stretch for Leafs and problem solved.

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07-29-2010, 04:22 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by FlapJackKing View Post
Ask the Chicago Blackhawks about it not being real money with their bonus carry-over of $4,157,753. It's real money and I'm assuming that either the bonuses were larger or easier to attain and that is why Bozak chose Toronto.
There in lies the truth ... Bozak can only earn his bonuses by playing and performing in the NHL as that is what they're based on..

On the Leafs he is earmarked for Leafs #1 center spot in 2010-11, because of the known weakness of the Team at that position.

If he would have picked Detroit or San Jose or Chicago or Philly etc or other teams and ended up on the depth chart below NHL regular and All Star Centers or even in the AHL all those potential bonuses would be unattainable and irrelevant to him..

Playing center with Phil Kessel on your wing and $$$ CHA CHING $$$ let the bonus money earned ring and flow for Bozak this season, which Leafs will have to account for or they will be facing another carryover Cap penalty for next year.

Lets see Max Bonus ELC contract with Max Bonus earning opportunity for Bozak made Toronto a rather easy choice in the end and almost a no brainer decision for Tyler as he says "Show me the money.



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07-29-2010, 05:38 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Hockey Talker29 View Post
My expectation is that there will be very little improvement.

However, I recognize that both players may be better than what we've seen so far.

I have played in front of a poor goalie. I know how it feels. But I'm not sure our goaltending was really THAT bad last year. I was very disappointed with our team defense as a whole. Sure, our goaltending was sub-par. No question about that. But it seems to me that most Leafs' fans think the defense was solid, and the goaltending was absolutely putrid.

I think the goaltending and defense were both bad. And I don't see why there might be a significant improvement, given the current personnel.

The main reason I feel this way is because I don't think Ron Wilson can coach a team like this. Our special teams are absolutely laughable, which is a direct projection of his coaching strategy, and his line combos are often bungled (Kessel w/ Blake! Are you kidding me!?).

I loved the addition of Phaneuf. I think we fleeced Calgary in that deal. But I'm not expecting us to challenge for a playoff spot until Wilson is replaced, and we start reallocating cap space to forwards, instead of inept defensemen (Komi, Beauche, and Finger).

I gotta say, I find some of the logic and conclusions in this post to be pretty puzzling.

First off, goaltending. You don't they'll be any better. Well, when Giguere or Gustavsson was in net rather than Toskala, our GAA went down by roughly a goal per game, 25+ Save Percentage points. This is a significant difference, as the numbers go from terrible to respectable. This is not even mentioning the fact that Giguere actually had an off year, and further that Gustavsson seemed to get much better as the year went on. A full year with the new tandem can only be better than last season.

Second, you claim most Leafs fans thought the defense wasn't bad. I don't think you'll find too many making that claim. But, you have to put it into context. Komisarek was barely healthy the whole season, even when he was playing. Beauchemin was clearly trying to make things happen and his decision making was affected by this. The long passes he tried and the pinches he made are not a normal part of his game. These two players felt immense pressure to be difference makers, and so when they tried too hard, they did not look any good at all.

You're so willing to make judgements on two guys who are unquestionably top 30-40 defensemen in the league. They were highly valued by their previous teams, and around the league. These are players who got long looks to play in the Olympics. But, one off year on a struggling, rebuidling team, and suddenly they are "inept"? Do you honestly think that is a fair assessment?

The biggest factor the Leafs will face next, in my opinion, is whether their forwards will be able to put enough pressure to keep the team from playing the majority of the game in their end. They need to take the pressure off the defense and goaltender to keep them in the game. This doesn't mean they need to be a high scoring team. They will need to play a possession game of grinding and cycling and creating chances, and tiring out their opponents. Guys like Armstrong and Versteeg are crucial for this, and adding one more forward who can really put defensemen back o their heels with his speed and/or skill level, will really help the team accomplish this.

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07-29-2010, 05:53 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by FlapJackKing View Post
Ask the Chicago Blackhawks about it not being real money with their bonus carry-over of $4,157,753. It's real money and I'm assuming that either the bonuses were larger or easier to attain and that is why Bozak chose Toronto.
Do tell. Who did the Leafs have in the lineup when Bozak signed who was going to ensure he would exceed all of his performance bonuses?

The way this place is these days one would assume that the Senators group has kicked out all of their least intelligent posters.

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07-29-2010, 05:56 PM
  #106
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Jesus, Regin signed a 2 year deal for about 1 million per. Kulemin's deal looks pretty awful next to guys like perron, regin, brule.

Burke should have waited a little longer.

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07-29-2010, 06:14 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
Jesus, Regin signed a 2 year deal for about 1 million per. Kulemin's deal looks pretty awful next to guys like perron, regin, brule.

Burke should have waited a little longer.
Regin the 24-year-old tallied 13 goals and 29 points in 75 games last season.

In comparison Leafs sent 24-year-old Christian Hanson a $900k qualifying offer awaiting signing now and he tallied 2 goals 5 assists and 7 points in 31 games.

Who is getting better value here?

Leafs salary scale is not like other teams and in a Cap World where every penny counts its not a good thing to have among the highest.

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07-29-2010, 06:25 PM
  #108
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Regin the 24-year-old tallied 13 goals and 29 points in 75 games last season.

In comparison Leafs sent 24-year-old Christian Hanson a $900k qualifying offer awaiting signing now and he tallied 2 goals 5 assists and 7 points in 31 games.

Who is getting better value here?

Leafs salary scale is not like other teams and in a Cap World where every penny counts its not a good thing to have among the highest.
I don't get a couple of things.

One, the only other option for Hanson was to not qualify and lose him for nothing which we all know would have you coming down on Buke.

Secondly, the Leafs don't have one forward nor defenceman anywhere close to being the highest paid at their position.

You typical response will be to go back to last year's results so please spare us all of that since we have seen it too many times already. This team gets judged on what this team does.

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07-29-2010, 06:26 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
Jesus, Regin signed a 2 year deal for about 1 million per. Kulemin's deal looks pretty awful next to guys like perron, regin, brule.

Burke should have waited a little longer.
If they are all better than Kulemin then they all have lousy agents. Duh.

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07-29-2010, 06:31 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
Jesus, Regin signed a 2 year deal for about 1 million per. Kulemin's deal looks pretty awful next to guys like perron, regin, brule.

Burke should have waited a little longer.
Burkie seems to overpay.....high payroll, but finishing at the bottom, doesn't make sense...

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07-29-2010, 06:32 PM
  #111
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If they are all better than Kulemin then they all have lousy agents. Duh.
Its the Russian factor for sure. Can you see Perron bolting for the KHL?

No worries though, we'll never draft another Russian, and Im happy with that. The draw of the KHL for young RFA/ELC players is too big of a factor.

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07-29-2010, 06:35 PM
  #112
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Doesn't Schenn have a rather high bonus for a 3rd. pairing defender?

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Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
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07-29-2010, 06:36 PM
  #113
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If they are all better than Kulemin then they all have lousy agents. Duh.
No doubt the agent had a body of work to present.

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07-29-2010, 06:42 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
Its the Russian factor for sure. Can you see Perron bolting for the KHL?

No worries though, we'll never draft another Russian, and Im happy with that. The draw of the KHL for young RFA/ELC players is too big of a factor.
And Kulemin could break Perron in two if he wanted.

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07-29-2010, 07:06 PM
  #115
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Doesn't Schenn have a rather high bonus for a 3rd. pairing defender?
He does but his Salary is determined by his draft position as the CBA states maximum base and bonuses per year and all the 5 lottery picks fall in line essentially to avoid signing issues and difficulty. Its almost predetermined with each ascending pick getting the same max base + a little smaller bonus structure and you can see how the salaries line up accordingly. So you really can't do much about that when a player is drafted in the Top 5..

Only thing you could do is draft Colin Wilson or Cody Hodgson with the pick and then you would avoid paying a 3rd pairing defensive dman that ELC contract for being a lottery pick.

2008 Entry Draft

1. Tampa Bay - Steven Stamkos --------$875,000 base + $2,850,000 bonus = $3,725,000 total
2. Los Angeles - Drew Doughty ---------$875,000 base + $2,600,000 bonus = $3,475,000 total
3. Atlanta - Zach Bogosian -------------$875,000 base + $2,500,000 bonus = $3,375,000 total
4. St. Louis - Alex Pietrangelo ----------$875,000 base + $2,350,000 bonus = $3,166,666 total
5. Toronto - Luke Schenn --------------$875,000 base + $2,100,000 bonus = $2,975,000 total

2009 Entry Draft


1. NY Islanders - John Tavares ---------$900,000 base + $2,850,000 bonus = $3,750,000 total
2. Tampa Bay - Victor Hedman ---------$900,000 base + $2,600,000 bonus = $3,500,000 total
3. Colorado - Matt Duchene ------------$900,000 base + $2,300,000 bonus = $3,200,000 total
4. Atlanta - Evander Kane ------------- $900,000 base + $2,250,000 bonus = $3,150,000 total
5. Los Angeles - Brayden Schenn -------$900,000 base + $2,240,000 bonus = $3,140,000 total

2010 Entry Draft

1. Edmonton - Taylor Hall --------------$900,000 base + $2,850,000 bonus = $3,750,000 total

etc.

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07-29-2010, 07:15 PM
  #116
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He does but his Salary is determined by his draft position as the CBA states maximum base and bonuses per year and all the 5 lottery picks fall in line essentially to avoid signing issues and difficulty. Its almost predetermined with each ascending pick getting the same max base + a little smaller bonus structure and you can see how the salaries line up accordingly. So you really can't do much about that when a player is drafted in the Top 5..
I do not believe bonuses are mandatory though.

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07-29-2010, 07:21 PM
  #117
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I do not believe bonuses are mandatory though.
No they are not mandatory they're optional, but as I pointed out they're all but predetermined before the player is even selected as to what that draft position contract will roughly look like and what is required to get your drafted player signed.

That is why Burke's hand was forced giving out optional bonuses to Tyler Bozak because he was drafted first overall in his draft year and therefore he needed to receive what the other #1 overall picks contracts are in the NHL.

#. Toronto - Tyler Bozak --------------- $900,000 base + $2,850,000 bonus = $3,750,000 total

1. Tampa Bay - Steven Stamkos --------$875,000 base + $2,850,000 bonus = $3,725,000 total
1. NY Islanders - John Tavares ---------$900,000 base + $2,850,000 bonus = $3,750,000 total
1. Edmonton - Taylor Hall --------------$900,000 base + $2,850,000 bonus = $3,750,000 total

Burke feels comfortable trading away 1st round picks because he knows he can pick up Free Wallets and pay them similarly if he wants, as if he had the 1st overall selection in the entry draft.

To me that's a pretty costly way of doing business in a Cap World, because even though the bonuses of Bozak and Schenn will go in the 7.5% ($4.5 mil) bonus slush fund a portion of those are going to be earned and if only base is considered in the $59.4 mil Cap then Leafs could be facing more carryover penalties as a result of these two contracts.


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07-29-2010, 07:49 PM
  #118
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Jesus, Regin signed a 2 year deal for about 1 million per. Kulemin's deal looks pretty awful next to guys like perron, regin, brule.

Burke should have waited a little longer.
Yeah, Regin's also a previous RSL MVP and plays incredibly well for his national teams in recent times.

So much better.

We should sign Kovalchuk for 1mil per year too. If we wait long enough it'll happen.

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07-29-2010, 07:55 PM
  #119
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Yeah, Regin's also a previous RSL MVP and plays incredibly well for his national teams in recent times.

So much better.

We should sign Kovalchuk for 1mil per year too. If we wait long enough it'll happen.
Before he came to America, Regin played in Sweden. So what your saying is impossible

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07-29-2010, 08:03 PM
  #120
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Before he came to America, Regin played in Sweden. So what your saying is impossible
Obviously?

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07-29-2010, 08:58 PM
  #121
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What I think has happened in Toronto, is that the Leafs pay for potential up front for their youth, and pay for best years when signing free agents.

Now, to be fair FA signings are almost always over paid (Kovalev make 5.0 in Ottawa is a good example)

Leaf management needs to make a considerable effort to change this, or the Buds will always be close but not close enough.

A team needs to have good contracts to win. Kaberle is a very cap friendly contract, but after that you would be hard pressed to show anotehr favourable contract.

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07-29-2010, 09:38 PM
  #122
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What I think has happened in Toronto, is that the Leafs pay for potential up front for their youth, and pay for best years when signing free agents.

Now, to be fair FA signings are almost always over paid (Kovalev make 5.0 in Ottawa is a good example)

Leaf management needs to make a considerable effort to change this, or the Buds will always be close but not close enough.

A team needs to have good contracts to win. Kaberle is a very cap friendly contract, but after that you would be hard pressed to show anotehr favourable contract.
If you say so.

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07-29-2010, 10:43 PM
  #123
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Do tell. Who did the Leafs have in the lineup when Bozak signed who was going to ensure he would exceed all of his performance bonuses?

The way this place is these days one would assume that the Senators group has kicked out all of their least intelligent posters.
Oh come on. Now you're grasping at straws and throwing insults too.

Hypothetically speaking lets say two teams call Bozak's agent, Toronto and Ottawa (who I know was interested), both for the same money...the first thing through your mind as a player (and agent) is which team gives me the best chance to gain the most points and therefore earn the most money (short term bonus money and long-term UFA dollars). The obvious answer is Toronto playing 20 minutes per night with nearly 4 minutes of PP time.

By extension then (as I stated) Toronto is therefore the place where he can most easily earn his bonuses.

In contrast Regin played less than 13 minutes per night and only had about a minute of PP time.


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07-29-2010, 10:49 PM
  #124
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Rangers had Drury and Redden, and still found a way to sign Gaborik. We're fine.
But did they make the playoffs?

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07-29-2010, 10:51 PM
  #125
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But did they make the playoffs?
Chicago had Huet and Campbell and made the playoffs.

Shocking.

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