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Tortorella: If Staal has no contract by training camp, he shouldn't be there(in tc)

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Old
07-30-2010, 12:44 PM
  #126
eco's bones
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Conspiracy is a cornerstone of management, any management. Parents conspire against their children routinely as part of keeping kids controlled. Single parents often have, therefore, a real trouble with parenthood due to absence of conspiracy partner. Lie and mistrust are part of life, yet people deny it just to keep the rosy glasses on their noses.
To me it is okay. Just stop fighting the obvious. Use it to explain the events without scare. No need for sarcasm.
Okay--so we didn't re-sign him. No one else signed him either. He went back to the KHL--had 39 points in 52 games--which is okay I suppose but third on his team in scoring--and way behind the first guy.

There's no denying Z has talent but he can't even lead his KHL team in scoring? All the skill in the world doesn't make someone a good player. They need a little bit of heart too. And that's something Nikolai has to work on.

Now that he's a Flyer I guess we'll see. I expect he'll do alright. However I expect he'll also be a support player more than a leader. That's fine but it's a shame because he has the skill level where he could lead a team which is also why he didn't get the money he wanted last summer.

What I don't really get yet is what happened with him has to do with Frolov now?

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Old
07-30-2010, 12:48 PM
  #127
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I wouldn't say he played himself off the team. He priced himself off the team. He was extended a qualifying offer.
Correct, and Frolov signed for quarter million less than that QO. I'd say it is pretty cheap given that Frolov is a better overall player. There must be a reason for discount. I think it is playing with Gaborik.

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07-30-2010, 12:57 PM
  #128
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What I don't really get yet is what happened with him has to do with Frolov now?
They both were low balled by their respective clubs. Both are not leading type (there is no way to become what you are not, another myth it is). Both are Russians, which make KHL contract a real probability. Both are second line wingers by potential. Both are the various lower derivatives of Alex Kovalev. Both are what Rangers terribly missed last year - a secondary producers.


Last edited by 94now: 07-30-2010 at 01:21 PM.
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07-30-2010, 01:00 PM
  #129
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Correct, and Frolov signed for quarter million less than that QO. I'd say it is pretty cheap given that Frolov is a better overall player. There must be a reason for discount. I think it is playing with Gaborik.
Obviously his market value is low for several reasons. And of course, given the make up of this team, he has an opportunity to play top minutes, be the second biggest scoring option on the team, get primo PP time and potentially play with a top sniper. So obviously, the chance for him to cash in will be there. But it depends on him and how he plays. Nothing is guaranteed.

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07-30-2010, 01:15 PM
  #130
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Obviously his market value is low for several reasons. And of course, given the make up of this team, he has an opportunity to play top minutes, be the second biggest scoring option on the team, get primo PP time and potentially play with a top sniper. So obviously, the chance for him to cash in will be there. But it depends on him and how he plays. Nothing is guaranteed.
Exactly. However, if coach says he "will be given every opportunity" to play on top line before even seeing him on ice, plus player says that management wants him there, that tells me that playing on first line is not just common sense, it was a promise.
The risk for Frolov is obvious as well. Should, Gd forbid, Gaborik is out for the season with injury, Frolov would became a scapegoat a la Zherdev in team downfall, because he will not be able to carry the team.

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07-30-2010, 01:46 PM
  #131
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You don't have to go in length to explain your point. I get it. You consider Torts a successful professional. I view him as BS artist that kisses his boss behind and echos him every step of the way to play it safe.
There is no proof or disproof to either. Therefore no matter how upsetting it is to you, your point is as good as mine. Frolov, IMO, is a 2LW. he will end up there eventually, but rather later than sooner, because Sather is the man of his word, no matter how bad he is in what he does.
You make absoultely no sense. All you're doing is throwing out conspiracy theories and then saying that because no one can disprove them that they're just as valid as other points. Seriously? That's the most asinine thing I've ever heard.

Your conjecture is pure nonsense. If you want to claim it as your foolish opinion then so be it, but don't for a second equate whatever nonsense you're talking about to statements that are based on logic and common sense.

How on earth can you sit there and say that Torts is just trying to play it safe with Glen when he's been adamant about Wade being terrible and him having to earn a spot. Yeah, that's really a good way to kiss your boss' rear end. Tell him his $36 million dollar mistake won't be playing. That's a solid way to kiss ass.

Bench Zherdev and tear him apart, the guy whom your boss traded a top 4 home grown D-man for. Again, another great way to kiss your boss' ass.

There is PLENTY to disprove your dumb, foolish plots.

And they are in NO WAY comparable to anyone who has the ability to look at our roster, then insert Frolov, and come to the conclusion that he'd be playing with Gaborik at some point.

And do you really think Tortorella has never seen Frolov play? You think he knows nothing about him? Are you really that naive? He doesn't know him on the level that a coach wants to and eventually gets to know his player. But let's not act like Glen called him and said hey I got you Alex Frolov, and Torts said who the **** is that?

Will Frolov end up on the second line? Who knows. He's going to end up where he has the most chemistry. If you're Tortorella, why on EARTH wouldn't you instantly try to put a puck possession, tough along the boards type kid who has scored 54, 71, 67, 59, and 51 points in the NHL his last five years?

IT IS COMMON SENSE, and NO, it is not on the same level as your farcical theories that are based on nothing except your delusions of grandeur. Try some Haloperidol. It might help.

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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Exactly. However, if coach says he "will be given every opportunity" to play on top line before even seeing him on ice, plus player says that management wants him there, that tells me that playing on first line is not just common sense, it was a promise.
The risk for Frolov is obvious as well. Should, Gd forbid, Gaborik is out for the season with injury, Frolov would became a scapegoat a la Zherdev in team downfall, because he will not be able to carry the team.
Uhh, if Gaborik gets hurt no one is going to make Frolov the scapegoat.

Again, anyone with COMMON SENSE knows that if Gaborik goes down, our team is shot.

People didn't sour on Zherdev because he couldn't carry the load in Gaborik's absence.

They soured on him because he brought nothing to the table other than his offense, and then went on huge stretches of being uninterested and invisible.

Get a clue.

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07-30-2010, 02:03 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
You make absoultely no sense. All you're doing is throwing out conspiracy theories and then saying that because no one can disprove them that they're just as valid as other points. Seriously? That's the most asinine thing I've ever heard.

Your conjecture is pure nonsense. If you want to claim it as your foolish opinion then so be it, but don't for a second equate whatever nonsense you're talking about to statements that are based on logic and common sense.

How on earth can you sit there and say that Torts is just trying to play it safe with Glen when he's been adamant about Wade being terrible and him having to earn a spot. Yeah, that's really a good way to kiss your boss' rear end. Tell him his $36 million dollar mistake won't be playing. That's a solid way to kiss ass.

Bench Zherdev and tear him apart, the guy whom your boss traded a top 4 home grown D-man for. Again, another great way to kiss your boss' ass.

There is PLENTY to disprove your dumb, foolish plots.

And they are in NO WAY comparable to anyone who has the ability to look at our roster, then insert Frolov, and come to the conclusion that he'd be playing with Gaborik at some point.

And do you really think Tortorella has never seen Frolov play? You think he knows nothing about him? Are you really that naive? He doesn't know him on the level that a coach wants to and eventually gets to know his player. But let's not act like Glen called him and said hey I got you Alex Frolov, and Torts said who the **** is that?

Will Frolov end up on the second line? Who knows. He's going to end up where he has the most chemistry. If you're Tortorella, why on EARTH wouldn't you instantly try to put a puck possession, tough along the boards type kid who has scored 54, 71, 67, 59, and 51 points in the NHL his last five years?

IT IS COMMON SENSE, and NO, it is not on the same level as your farcical theories that are based on nothing except your delusions of grandeur. Try some Haloperidol. It might help.



Uhh, if Gaborik gets hurt no one is going to make Frolov the scapegoat.

Again, anyone with COMMON SENSE knows that if Gaborik goes down, our team is shot.

People didn't sour on Zherdev because he couldn't carry the load in Gaborik's absence.

They soured on him because he brought nothing to the table other than his offense, and then went on huge stretches of being uninterested and invisible.

Get a clue.
Common sense by definition is a substitute for knowledge, a surrogate, if you wish . It is widely used by people to cover tier ignorance.
In other words, appealing to common sense is not convincing.

Every other statement you made is not supported, because Sather changes his mind about his signings at some point in time. Torts just follows when and acts accordingly.

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Old
07-30-2010, 02:07 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Common sense by definition is a substitute for knowledge, a surrogate, if you wish . It is widely used by people to cover tier ignorance.
In other words, appealing to common sense is not convincing.

Every other statement you made is not supported, because Sather changes his mind about his signings at some point in time. Torts just follows when and acts accordingly.
Uhh no it's not. It means sound, practical judgment, or what people in common would agree on. And anyone who has it would be able to draw the conclusion I explained. Funny also how the majority in this thread have disagreed with you and agreed that Frolov with Gaborik easily makes sense, and not because of your conspiracy reasons. Hmm maybe cause it's common sense, and people would agree on it.

But good job not responding to any other parts of the message.

It's nice that now you're resorting to arguing semantics because you don't have a leg to stand on with anything you're saying. Even though you can't even use semantics to your advantage.

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Old
07-30-2010, 02:27 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Correct, and Frolov signed for quarter million less than that QO. I'd say it is pretty cheap given that Frolov is a better overall player. There must be a reason for discount. I think it is playing with Gaborik.
What fantasy societal land do you live in??? Playing with gaborik had absolutely nothing to do with taking a $3 million dollar contract. For one gaborik is not russian so the two have NEVER played on the same team together, EVER. Having said that, there is no difference between playing with gaborik here than playing with, idk, lets say eric staal in carolina. Thats how far off you are with that statement.

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07-30-2010, 02:44 PM
  #135
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Yes he does want to play with Gaborik. Frolov couldnt care less about the nationality of his teamates. Go to the Rangers website and read the intervies.

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07-30-2010, 02:53 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
What fantasy societal land do you live in??? Playing with gaborik had absolutely nothing to do with taking a $3 million dollar contract. For one gaborik is not russian so the two have NEVER played on the same team together, EVER. Having said that, there is no difference between playing with gaborik here than playing with, idk, lets say eric staal in carolina. Thats how far off you are with that statement.
Dude 94 might be on some crazy ass drug cocktail today but he is right. Frolov even said in interviews that a big part of the negotiations was them promising him that he would play with Gabby and have a lot of PP time...

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07-30-2010, 03:55 PM
  #137
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Dude 94 might be on some crazy ass drug cocktail today but he is right. Frolov even said in interviews that a big part of the negotiations was them promising him that he would play with Gabby and have a lot of PP time...
I think you can freely replace "play with gaborik" with "play on the first line"

Gaborik=first line and big minutes

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07-31-2010, 09:13 AM
  #138
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Frolov will probably get time with Gaborik. That doesn't mean its what's best for this roster.

If you load the top line, you are only one line deep.

Splitting Gaborik and Frolov would create depth. And make it harder for thr opposition to shut down the offense.

Gaborik doesn't need to benefit from anyone. He can produce, as he has proved, with the likes of Christensen. All Gaborik needs is a guy who can pass and shoot.

Anisimov, however, has proven that he is most successful with big, puck possession type wingers. Which is what Frolov is.

Dubinsky. Christensen. Gaborik
Frolov. Anisimov. Zuccarello-Aasen
Prospal. Drury. Callahan
Avery. Boyle. Prust

ex-F:Boogaard

Staal. Girardi
Del Zotto. Rozsival
McDonagh. Gilroy

ex-D:Eminger

Lundqvist

bu-G:Biron


And then there's the well known fact that Tortorella doesn't keep lines together. He changes things on the fly all the time.

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07-31-2010, 01:16 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Frolov will probably get time with Gaborik. That doesn't mean its what's best for this roster.

If you load the top line, you are only one line deep.

Splitting Gaborik and Frolov would create depth. And make it harder for thr opposition to shut down the offense.

Gaborik doesn't need to benefit from anyone. He can produce, as he has proved, with the likes of Christensen. All Gaborik needs is a guy who can pass and shoot.

Anisimov, however, has proven that he is most successful with big, puck possession type wingers. Which is what Frolov is.

Dubinsky. Christensen. Gaborik
Frolov. Anisimov. Zuccarello-Aasen
Prospal. Drury. Callahan
Avery. Boyle. Prust

ex-F:Boogaard

Staal. Girardi
Del Zotto. Rozsival
McDonagh. Gilroy

ex-D:Eminger

Lundqvist

bu-G:Biron


And then there's the well known fact that Tortorella doesn't keep lines together. He changes things on the fly all the time.
totally agree. split em up and play the minutes a little more spread out.

i tend to agree with Torts' philosophy of playing 3 lines. but i dont want the top line to play like 30 minutes.

Id like it broken down to like..

21
19
17
3

or something like that.

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07-31-2010, 03:13 PM
  #140
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You make absoultely no sense. All you're doing is throwing out conspiracy theories and then saying that because no one can disprove them that they're just as valid as other points. Seriously? That's the most asinine thing I've ever heard.

Your conjecture is pure nonsense. If you want to claim it as your foolish opinion then so be it, but don't for a second equate whatever nonsense you're talking about to statements that are based on logic and common sense.

How on earth can you sit there and say that Torts is just trying to play it safe with Glen when he's been adamant about Wade being terrible and him having to earn a spot. Yeah, that's really a good way to kiss your boss' rear end. Tell him his $36 million dollar mistake won't be playing. That's a solid way to kiss ass.

Bench Zherdev and tear him apart, the guy whom your boss traded a top 4 home grown D-man for. Again, another great way to kiss your boss' ass.

There is PLENTY to disprove your dumb, foolish plots.

And they are in NO WAY comparable to anyone who has the ability to look at our roster, then insert Frolov, and come to the conclusion that he'd be playing with Gaborik at some point.

And do you really think Tortorella has never seen Frolov play? You think he knows nothing about him? Are you really that naive? He doesn't know him on the level that a coach wants to and eventually gets to know his player. But let's not act like Glen called him and said hey I got you Alex Frolov, and Torts said who the **** is that?

Will Frolov end up on the second line? Who knows. He's going to end up where he has the most chemistry. If you're Tortorella, why on EARTH wouldn't you instantly try to put a puck possession, tough along the boards type kid who has scored 54, 71, 67, 59, and 51 points in the NHL his last five years?

IT IS COMMON SENSE, and NO, it is not on the same level as your farcical theories that are based on nothing except your delusions of grandeur. Try some Haloperidol. It might help.



Uhh, if Gaborik gets hurt no one is going to make Frolov the scapegoat.

Again, anyone with COMMON SENSE knows that if Gaborik goes down, our team is shot.

People didn't sour on Zherdev because he couldn't carry the load in Gaborik's absence.

They soured on him because he brought nothing to the table other than his offense, and then went on huge stretches of being uninterested and invisible.

Get a clue.


You're my new HF hero. There's really nothing to add to this.

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08-01-2010, 08:41 AM
  #141
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People seem to forget that Torts didn't have the best year last year from a tactical standpoint. I understand he didn't have much to work with, but if it were not for some late season additions, this team wouldn't have even sniffed the No. 8 seed.

Torts is all talk. He's a coach. I get it. But we all know he is horrible at handling crisis, and his contingiencies are usually blind stabs, like putting a band aid on a leg that needs to be amputated.

It doesn't take a whole lot of genius to put every player on every line, or 10 different people to run the point on the PP. I also think he is horrible at matchups.

I can specifically think of two occasions where he decided to sit Henrik in key games for no logical reason other than "because I said so".

Still, I can stomach him one more year. If this team doesnt make the playoffs, time to look elsewhere.

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08-01-2010, 09:22 AM
  #142
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Tortorella talks a lot about accountability and keeping under control but he can hardly control himself. As for accountability after the Rangers season ended he seemed at least to my eyes to want to point the blame away from himself. I wasn't that impressed. If he didn't think Redden could cut it--like most of the posters here--why keep playing him? He may know what he wants from the team and the individuals on it but he certainly wasn't able to get it from them. His best line at the end of the season was Anisimov-Prust-Shelley. That should tell people something.

I agree that this is a make or break season for him.

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08-01-2010, 09:58 AM
  #143
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totally agree. split em up and play the minutes a little more spread out.

i tend to agree with Torts' philosophy of playing 3 lines. but i dont want the top line to play like 30 minutes.

Id like it broken down to like..

21
19
17
3

or something like that.
I guess it depends on the type of game. Plus, when you factor in special teams those numbers all get skewed. With Torts it's "whoever is on is playing" so the ice time numbers will always differentiate.

If I had to state my guess, I'd go with:

22 - 1st
18 - 2nd
15 - 3rd
5 - 4th

25 - 1st d
20 - 2nd d
15 - 3rd d

But again, it changes all the time. So ya never know.

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08-01-2010, 11:11 AM
  #144
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I think you can freely replace "play with gaborik" with "play on the first line"

Gaborik=first line and big minutes
Minutes along wont cut it. Frolov needs points to get to NHL elite he thinks he belongs. Those could be obtain from Gaborik in form of number of assists. He knew what he was doing by getting that promise from the Rangers. Whether they keep it is a different question, I convinced they will, even though the depth of the offense may suffer compared to split.

As for Torts interview, again, he just said whatever Sather has told him. He has, and rightfully so, no clue at this time. It's like listening to the player in the intermission when the guy simply recites his coach. It is valuable information, but I wouldn't put, like I said, too much into it.

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08-01-2010, 11:41 AM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Frolov will probably get time with Gaborik. That doesn't mean its what's best for this roster.

If you load the top line, you are only one line deep.

Splitting Gaborik and Frolov would create depth. And make it harder for thr opposition to shut down the offense.

Gaborik doesn't need to benefit from anyone. He can produce, as he has proved, with the likes of Christensen. All Gaborik needs is a guy who can pass and shoot.

Anisimov, however, has proven that he is most successful with big, puck possession type wingers. Which is what Frolov is.

Dubinsky. Christensen. Gaborik
Frolov. Anisimov. Zuccarello-Aasen
Prospal. Drury. Callahan
Avery. Boyle. Prust

ex-F:Boogaard

Staal. Girardi
Del Zotto. Rozsival
McDonagh. Gilroy

ex-D:Eminger

Lundqvist

bu-G:Biron


And then there's the well known fact that Tortorella doesn't keep lines together. He changes things on the fly all the time.
Boogaard is not and ?I repeat not going to be a Extra forward

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08-01-2010, 03:37 PM
  #146
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i can't believe people actually still respond to 94now...

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08-01-2010, 03:46 PM
  #147
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i can't believe people actually still respond to 94now...
Yeah, I still can't figure out if he's trolling or if he legitimately believes some of the garbage he spews around here.

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08-01-2010, 03:56 PM
  #148
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Boogaard is not and ?I repeat not going to be a Extra forward
Based on what?

Because his career says otherwise.

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08-01-2010, 03:59 PM
  #149
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I guess it depends on the type of game. Plus, when you factor in special teams those numbers all get skewed. With Torts it's "whoever is on is playing" so the ice time numbers will always differentiate.

If I had to state my guess, I'd go with:

22 - 1st
18 - 2nd
15 - 3rd
5 - 4th

25 - 1st d
20 - 2nd d
15 - 3rd d

But again, it changes all the time. So ya never know.
I think the fourth line should play as much as it is capable of handling. For example, if your 4th line is Avery-Boyle-Prust, they are surely capable of 9-11 minutes a night. If they are indeed "on" you could see them getting more like Prust and Shelley in those last few games. They were looking at like 14 minutes of ice time. If the whole line isn't "on" Torts will just play the "on" players and double shift someone else from the top lines. I'd agree that Boogaard isn't going to get more than 5 a night. He will routinely spend more time in the penalty box than on the ice.

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08-01-2010, 04:00 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Boogaard is not and ?I repeat not going to be a Extra forward
The only reason he could be a regular for the upcoming year is if his salary determined it.

His actual skill level and effectiveness on the ice leaves very much to be desired. He should only be in if we need him to beat someone up.

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