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Francois Beauchemin value?

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05-27-2004, 01:22 PM
  #26
Marchy79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saskhab
it's time the organization stops rewarding hainsey for his fast starts. it never lasts and he seems to drop his play and then gets sent to the minors. make him go to the minors and keep that work ethic up...

beauchemin should be our #7 next year. he's earned it by his play in hamilton the past two years.

beauchemin's upside seems to be a #5 or #6 d-man. hopefully a good one, but since he's only played 1 NHL game, it's hard to tell...
Rewarding Hainsey? Hainsey was not rewarded at all last year. He got his chance with another strong camp, and was eased out of the line up and told about everything he did wrong, it affected his play and was subsequently sent down and never seen of again... I remember the argument we all had about Hainsey getting sent down over bubbles (I thought it was way wrong and still do)... And out of all do circumstances, Hainsey earned his role this past season.

Only in Montreal does a rookie defenceman post a goal, an assist, was a +2 in 13 minutes a game for 11 games... He is 6-3, 211, PLaying tentative but not awful (basically forgetting his offensive holes that he's very good at finding, probably from getting reamed at, and villified as a a guy who enjoys the night life, as many habbers do)

get dumped for a 29 year old fringe NHL'er who posted no points, was a -4 in the same position....

It only happens in Montreal, but IMO this is the character in the organization that turns our kids to champions Hainsey is ready and loaded for a coming out season next year.

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05-27-2004, 01:38 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost # 1
Rewarding Hainsey? Hainsey was not rewarded at all last year. He got his chance with another strong camp, and was eased out of the line up and told about everything he did wrong, it affected his play and was subsequently sent down and never seen of again... I remember the argument we all had about Hainsey getting sent down over bubbles (I thought it was way wrong and still do)... And out of all do circumstances, Hainsey earned his role this past season.

Only in Montreal does a rookie defenceman post a goal, an assist, was a +2 in 13 minutes a game for 11 games... He is 6-3, 211, PLaying tentative but not awful (basically forgetting his offensive holes that he's very good at finding, probably from getting reamed at, and villified as a a guy who enjoys the night life, as many habbers do)

get dumped for a 29 year old fringe NHL'er who posted no points, was a -4 in the same position....

It only happens in Montreal, but IMO this is the character in the organization that turns our kids to champions Hainsey is ready and loaded for a coming out season next year.
agree!!!!!!!!

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05-27-2004, 01:42 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost # 1

get dumped for a 29 year old fringe NHL'er who posted no points, was a -4 in the same position.....
I would imagine most hab fans would agree with me that Boullion played 10X better last year than Hainsey. I don't think anybody in habs management is writting off Hainsey, but felt that some more time in Hamilton was in his best interest.

Next year is going to be the big make or break year for Hainsey, and I would imagine management will give him every chance to suceed with the big club. A new attitude on his part would go along way, for sure. Maybe he could ask Komi about that.

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05-27-2004, 01:47 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darz
I would imagine most hab fans would agree with me that Boullion played 10X better last year than Hainsey. I don't think anybody in habs management is writting off Hainsey, but felt that some more time in Hamilton was in his best interest.

Next year is going to be the big make or break year for Hainsey, and I would imagine management will give him every chance to suceed with the big club. A new attitude on his part would go along way, for sure. Maybe he could ask Komi about that.
How did Cube played 10X better than Hainsey???? Hainsey played in AHL last year, are you comparing Cube's play in NHL to Hainsey's play in AHL, or just assume that if they were both with Montreal, Cube would have been 10X better?

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05-27-2004, 02:10 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAN-HAB
How did Cube played 10X better than Hainsey???? Hainsey played in AHL last year, are you comparing Cube's play in NHL to Hainsey's play in AHL, or just assume that if they were both with Montreal, Cube would have been 10X better?
I'm comparing Cube to Hainsey's limited (11 games) NHL season last year. I don't doubt that Hainsey would of improved over the course of the season if he stayed in the NHL, but I think management just felt his development would be better served if he spend some time in Hamilton, and as the year went on and we were in a playoff hunt, developing the youth at the NHL level probablely took a back seat to making the playoffs.

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05-27-2004, 02:17 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darz
I'm comparing Cube to Hainsey's limited (11 games) NHL season last year. I don't doubt that Hainsey would of improved over the course of the season if he stayed in the NHL, but I think management just felt his development would be better served if he spend some time in Hamilton, and as the year went on and we were in a playoff hunt, developing the youth at the NHL level probablely took a back seat to making the playoffs.
OK saying that Cube is 10 times better was just your assumption.

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05-27-2004, 02:22 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAN-HAB
OK saying that Cube is 10 times better was just your assumption.
first off, yes it is just my opinion based on Cube's play versus Hainsey short stint in the NHL where he looked tenitive on many players, and made numerous mistakes. Many of the mistakes I believe were just rookie type mistakes that would of been ironed out in time, but if I had to compare Cube's play to that of Hainsey's during those 11 games, I would say that Cube's play was a heck of alot better than Hainsey.

Granted this is just my opinion, but.......

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05-27-2004, 02:32 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darz
first off, yes it is just my opinion based on Cube's play versus Hainsey short stint in the NHL where he looked tenitive on many players, and made numerous mistakes. Many of the mistakes I believe were just rookie type mistakes that would of been ironed out in time, but if I had to compare Cube's play to that of Hainsey's during those 11 games, I would say that Cube's play was a heck of alot better than Hainsey.

Granted this is just my opinion, but.......
got your point and your opinion, however hard to qualify someone being 10 times better on 11 games ( ), not taking in consideration age, experience, etc. Enough to compare their stats for those 11 games to figure that 10 times better or worse is not a proper statement. It's OK to like someone 10 times better, but to say one is 10 times better than other???? Anyway I understand your point.

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05-27-2004, 02:32 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darz
first off, yes it is just my opinion based on Cube's play versus Hainsey short stint in the NHL where he looked tenitive on many players, and made numerous mistakes. Many of the mistakes I believe were just rookie type mistakes that would of been ironed out in time, but if I had to compare Cube's play to that of Hainsey's during those 11 games, I would say that Cube's play was a heck of alot better than Hainsey.

Granted this is just my opinion, but.......
I still think Hainsey should have played. To start off, Hainsey is our future, not the cube. On top of that Hainsey played well enough to play as a 5th or 6th D. IMO Hainsey should have been in the line up, but maybe management didnt want too develope two D at the same time, with Komo and Hainsey, and felt tht developing one at a time was the best thing to do. Also making the playoffs would have been much more difficult if we would have had two rookie D's in our line up, because both would have been prone to mistakes that can cost games and ultimately points in the standins. I really believe there was more too Hainsey not making the club this season, as i explained why above.

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05-27-2004, 02:43 PM
  #35
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Wow, the armchair GM's are out in full force today.


Easily enough said. Hainsey didn't make the Habs last year because a 23 year old Hainsey is not as good as a 28 year old Bouillon. Simple as that. For the 6 Millionth time. I trust what Gainey and Julien think over what any of you have have to say.

This year, who knows? Ron Hainsey 2004 might be better than Francis Bouillon 2004. We will see come training camp.

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05-27-2004, 02:43 PM
  #36
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I thought that Hainsey deserved more of a chance last season, but it didn't happen and alot of guys here are convinced that he hasn't matured and grown up yet... be that as it may, he is going to be a good D, with an awesome upside of being a PP QB and a steady 4-5-6 Dman, but he is gonna have to bust his balls to do it, and to prove to CJ and BG he belongs.

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05-27-2004, 03:02 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAN-HAB
How did Cube played 10X better than Hainsey???? Hainsey played in AHL last year, are you comparing Cube's play in NHL to Hainsey's play in AHL, or just assume that if they were both with Montreal, Cube would have been 10X better?
You know what Hainsey is that Bouillon is not? A liability.

You have your answer now. If you quit thinking about his draft position and his age, you'll see the logic.

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05-27-2004, 03:04 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahan
You know what Hainsey is that Bouillon is not? A liability.

You have your answer now. If you quit thinking about his draft position and his age, you'll see the logic.
The way Hainsey was playing in his 11 games early in the season, didnt make him seem as if he was a liability imo. He was playing fine.

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05-27-2004, 03:09 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahan
You know what Hainsey is that Bouillon is not? A liability.

You have your answer now. If you quit thinking about his draft position and his age, you'll see the logic.
Sorry rahan but you didn't get my point. If you care to reply to my post, read what I say ( ) before replying, I was arguing the Darz' statement that Bouillon played 10 times better than Hainsey last year, didn't understand that, one played in NHL, the other in AHL. Please next time before you hit the reply button....

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05-27-2004, 03:12 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAN-HAB
Sorry rahan but you didn't get my point. If you care to reply to my post, read what I say ( ) before replying, I was arguing the Darz' statement that Bouillon played 10 times better than Hainsey last year, didn't understand that, one played in NHL, the other in AHL. Please next time before you hit the reply button....
And I'm saying how Bouillon was ten times better than Hainsey in his NHL games, to help out Darz. Think before you hit the reply button ( ) before you act like mine is out of subject, because it's not at all.

Yes, I'm mimicking you.

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05-27-2004, 03:37 PM
  #41
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There are 2 sides to that fence (Hainsey vS Bouillon) 1/2 of us saw a Ron Hainsey who was good enough to take shifts in the NHL (he was IMO, more impressive than Bubbles in their limited time subbing in the early season)... Bubbles got the job because he was more confident (at least that is what I gathered)... But Hainsey certainly handled his own end not too badly in Montreal. It was the confidence drop in his last few games that sealed his fate... But make no mistake about it, IMO, Hainsey was ready last year, if he got the green light. He wasn't instilled with the same confidence Komisarek got. I also think Hainsey looked better than Komisarek in Komi's first 11 games up as well, Though Komisarek got the chance to prove himself and he eventually did prove himself to be effective. But this argument is apples to oranges... These 2 kids, though good friends, are on completely opposite pages as defencemen... They do complement eachother though

The big problem with bubbles, is that he routinely costed us games when pressured with big wingers. I still wonder what season we would have had if Hainsey was in his steed. Hainsey from what I saw was strong on incoming players, but occasionally played to man in front a bit weakly... I might add however, many Montreal D-men did this last year. Rivet was doing this all playoffs (drove me nuts )... I'd have tooken the risk with Hainsey this past year... and IMO, Bouillon would still be in tight against Beauchemin, who as # 7... Fills in very nicely on both sides, has size to back up some physical play... Reads a play decently, AND who has the potential to be a decent NHL defenceman... Bouillon, though he is a fan favourite, will always be fringe. He's just not solid enough to handle NHL calibre physical wingers. Nothing against the guy, he plays his heart and soul every game. But his time should've been up 2 years ago. He's not good enough to take the next step with.

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05-27-2004, 03:54 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahan
And I'm saying how Bouillon was ten times better than Hainsey in his NHL games, to help out Darz. Think before you hit the reply button ( ) before you act like mine is out of subject, because it's not at all.

Yes, I'm mimicking you.
better, maybe....not my opinion though, but ten times better that shows a lot of objectiveness ( ).

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05-27-2004, 05:12 PM
  #43
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I think that Bouillon is a good 6th defenceman. What do you expect from a 6th defenceman? Bouillon is strong, fast, can play in the 3 zones...And checks hard.
The only reason why people don't like him is because he is 5''9. Well, it doesn't matter cause he is strong like a 6 foot guy. He is actually stronger than most 6 foot defencemans...Add to that the fact that he always gives 110%...He's better than other 6th D-Man, like Murray Baron or Igor Ulanov or else...
Even Hitchcock tell it: He is one of the good little D-Man. He named Rafalski, Markov, Bouillon...(Guys that play smart despite the fact that they are small).

The only thing I hate is when he try to stop the puck like he is a goalie or something. Then Theo see nothing and it's a goal...

Other thing I like about him is that is is cheap. So we can keep our money on good players like Kovalev...

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05-28-2004, 12:47 AM
  #44
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ok, time to qualify my statements...

hainsey always gets rewarded for being fast out of the gate. he nearly made the team as a 20 year old, he made it as a 21 year old, and again as a 22 year old out of camp. he gets sent down. does he ever get called back up? no. he has never been called back up because his play and effort in hamilton haven't warranted it. beauchemin busts his balls down in steeltown, gets named top d-man for the year, and only gets 1 token game in as an emergency callup.

when was hainsey's best stint in the minors? in his rookie year (that'd be 2001-02), before he got injured. it was widely thought he was about to get a mid-season callup. if he started in the minors, i think he'd work harder throughout the year. part of him just seems to give up when sent down mid-season.

i've read the part in the current CBA about waivers, and i don't think hainsey would have to clear them next year, though there seemed to be a loophole that maybe he had to. but it won't matter. next year will be a different CBA, and possibly different rules with regards to this, so who knows who qualifies or not. maybe the roster size in the NHL will be expanded and we can carry 8 d-men...

komisarek spent the whole year in a hotel. i don't know if he was that confident that he'd stay with the team all year...

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05-28-2004, 07:15 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAN-HAB
better, maybe....not my opinion though, but ten times better that shows a lot of objectiveness ( ).
Maybe 10 times was an exaggeration on my part. I just feel that the Cube did better job with the '03-'04 team than Hainsey did in his brief stint.

Now who will be better on the '04-'05 team is still to be seen.

Hopefully, it will be Hainsey.

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05-28-2004, 11:52 AM
  #46
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When you talk about the value of a player, I assume you are talking about his value to the team... or his potential value to the team.

Defense in the NHL is one of the toughest positions to play effectively and every year, Beauchemin has improved his game. He makes fewer mistakes than Hainsey, he is bigger than Bouillon and less injury prone than Souray. Unfortunately, Sheldon will be undergoing another wrist surgery and that suddenly makes Beauchemin much more valuable.

I cannot see Gainey letting Beauchemin go unless he picks up a solid veteran defenseman and we know how many of those are available.

Markov looks like the only defenseman on the left side that we can really count on. Each of the others has his shortcomings and that is what makes Beauchemin an important player to keep... at least for now. If anyone of the other three falters, he is the closest to being ready for the NHL.

I would say his trade value is low but his value to the team, at this point, should not be underestimated.

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05-28-2004, 12:40 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Rubble
When you talk about the value of a player, I assume you are talking about his value to the team... or his potential value to the team.

Defense in the NHL is one of the toughest positions to play effectively and every year, Beauchemin has improved his game. He makes fewer mistakes than Hainsey, he is bigger than Bouillon and less injury prone than Souray. Unfortunately, Sheldon will be undergoing another wrist surgery and that suddenly makes Beauchemin much more valuable.

I cannot see Gainey letting Beauchemin go unless he picks up a solid veteran defenseman and we know how many of those are available.

Markov looks like the only defenseman on the left side that we can really count on. Each of the others has his shortcomings and that is what makes Beauchemin an important player to keep... at least for now. If anyone of the other three falters, he is the closest to being ready for the NHL.

I would say his trade value is low but his value to the team, at this point, should not be underestimated.
Exactly what I meant, good post!

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05-28-2004, 01:36 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saskhab
ok, time to qualify my statements...

hainsey always gets rewarded for being fast out of the gate. he nearly made the team as a 20 year old, he made it as a 21 year old, and again as a 22 year old out of camp. he gets sent down. does he ever get called back up? no. he has never been called back up because his play and effort in hamilton haven't warranted it. beauchemin busts his balls down in steeltown, gets named top d-man for the year, and only gets 1 token game in as an emergency callup.
I gotta disagree with you on this point... The fact that he almost made the team every time out testifies how good he played in the Tryouts. He is getting sent down IMO because the expectations out of him are too great. As for his play down in Hamilton, he has looked like Svitov did down there (a man amongst boys). He is by far visibly, the most talented player that was in Hamilton. He went end to end untouched, His play warranted call ups (like Markov's did before he gave his frustrated ultimatum a few years back in his last year of AHL action)... I.E. his +/- is excellent, his Goal totals are a bit lower than expected, but certainly acceptable, his point production is there (on a good level)... Furthermore, upon returning to Hamilton, he played with more edge to his game... and his tentativeness went away... He was demoted based on the fact that Gainey had a personal problem with his additude IMO. But he is NHL calibre now.

As for Beauchemin, you are also right as well, Beauchemin deserves more than spot work/250 games in the AHL. He should be the 7th man next year. He's developed all he can in the AHL, and he plays both sides of the point effectively (making him a great sub-in). I think on many other teams Beauchemin would be already in the line up making a name for himself, and perhaps graduating from 5/6 to 4/5... He is going to be more effective pro than Bouillon could ever wish to be. Beauchemin also had a horrendous training camp, where he was ineffective against the NHL'ers, and almost took out a teammates eye (Kilger).He deserved the call up IMO even over Dykhuis (because he still has lots to prove at this level, unlike Dykhuis). But ultimately, he has never proved in Training camp he should be top 7... let alone better than Hainsey (who has done it every time out, with production/solid play).

The fact is, we have too many depth guys (4/5/6/spare defencemen) than we need, and luckily we haven't paid the piper for it... yet. The only way we avoid losing some of these guys is to get rid of Bouillon (who is 29, and a decent filler on many teams...)and give his (and Quintal's) roster spots to Hainsey and Beauchemin... This IMO solidifies our defence much more, as both Hainsey and Beauchemin have the size to handle the big Eastern Conference d-men down low...

At this point, Bouillon should go West, and I think he'd fit in great over there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saskhab
when was hainsey's best stint in the minors? in his rookie year (that'd be 2001-02), before he got injured. it was widely thought he was about to get a mid-season callup. if he started in the minors, i think he'd work harder throughout the year. part of him just seems to give up when sent down mid-season.

i've read the part in the current CBA about waivers, and i don't think hainsey would have to clear them next year, though there seemed to be a loophole that maybe he had to. but it won't matter. next year will be a different CBA, and possibly different rules with regards to this, so who knows who qualifies or not. maybe the roster size in the NHL will be expanded and we can carry 8 d-men...

komisarek spent the whole year in a hotel. i don't know if he was that confident that he'd stay with the team all year...
Hainsey's best stint in the minors was last year's play-offs, where IMO he was by far the best Bull-dog rearguard on the ice. Him, Ryder and Ward took the team to another level last year, he was finally picking his moments correctly, and not pinching too much. Last year Hainsey's game matured a lot. This year is considered a regression, however... By a census of hab fans, he did not disappoint many of us, and in fact to many of us, looked like he won the job over Bouillon in the first quarter of the year. It was his tentative play in his final game with us this year that got the bees buzzing that he wasn't so hot... But tentative play usually comes by a good reaming out (which no doubt he proabably got for not keeping things rediculously Dykhuis simple a'la Komisarek for the most part of this year). Dont get me wrong Komi played fine, and eventually very good as the longer he stayed in the line up, the more effective he was. Hainsey's game is at this level now, as is Beauchemin... We technically had 9 ready-made defencemen this year. Julien had a choice, and like he stated for the most part of the year, Bubbles won it by being a bulldog EVERY night on the point for us. That does not consider what his weaknesses are (though they are glaring). It was a lesson taught, now I hope the lesson will be learned (as it should be).

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05-29-2004, 12:51 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost # 1
I gotta disagree with you on this point... The fact that he almost made the team every time out testifies how good he played in the Tryouts. He is getting sent down IMO because the expectations out of him are too great. As for his play down in Hamilton, he has looked like Svitov did down there (a man amongst boys). He is by far visibly, the most talented player that was in Hamilton. He went end to end untouched, His play warranted call ups (like Markov's did before he gave his frustrated ultimatum a few years back in his last year of AHL action)... I.E. his +/- is excellent, his Goal totals are a bit lower than expected, but certainly acceptable, his point production is there (on a good level)... Furthermore, upon returning to Hamilton, he played with more edge to his game... and his tentativeness went away... He was demoted based on the fact that Gainey had a personal problem with his additude IMO. But he is NHL calibre now.
I disagree. He has moments where he looks outstanding, and is a man amongst boys/best player on the ice, basically everything you said. However he also has some bad moments out there too. He can be prone to giveaways when making the breakout pass in his own zone. He needs to be more consistent and play well night in; night out, to earn an extended stay with the big club. Him and Hossa are the most frustrating players to watch with the Dogs IMO because of the fact that they can look so good for stretches and so bad in others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost # 1
As for Beauchemin, you are also right as well, Beauchemin deserves more than spot work/250 games in the AHL. He should be the 7th man next year. He's developed all he can in the AHL, and he plays both sides of the point effectively (making him a great sub-in). I think on many other teams Beauchemin would be already in the line up making a name for himself, and perhaps graduating from 5/6 to 4/5... He is going to be more effective pro than Bouillon could ever wish to be. Beauchemin also had a horrendous training camp, where he was ineffective against the NHL'ers, and almost took out a teammates eye (Kilger).He deserved the call up IMO even over Dykhuis (because he still has lots to prove at this level, unlike Dykhuis). But ultimately, he has never proved in Training camp he should be top 7... let alone better than Hainsey (who has done it every time out, with production/solid play).
Beauchemin has in fact been far more consistent than Hainsey at the AHL level and does deserve a better shot than he has gotten.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost # 1
Hainsey's best stint in the minors was last year's play-offs, where IMO he was by far the best Bull-dog rearguard on the ice. Him, Ryder and Ward took the team to another level last year, he was finally picking his moments correctly, and not pinching too much. Last year Hainsey's game matured a lot. This year is considered a regression, however...
Exactly he has to play the way he played in the 03 playoffs every night and then he will be ready to fulfill his potential and become a top 3 defenceman on an NHL team.

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05-29-2004, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost # 1

Hainsey's best stint in the minors was last year's play-offs, where IMO he was by far the best Bull-dog rearguard on the ice. Him, Ryder and Ward took the team to another level last year, he was finally picking his moments correctly, and not pinching too much. Last year Hainsey's game matured a lot. This year is considered a regression, however... By a census of hab fans, he did not disappoint many of us, and in fact to many of us, looked like he won the job over Bouillon in the first quarter of the year. It was his tentative play in his final game with us this year that got the bees buzzing that he wasn't so hot... But tentative play usually comes by a good reaming out (which no doubt he proabably got for not keeping things rediculously Dykhuis simple a'la Komisarek for the most part of this year). Dont get me wrong Komi played fine, and eventually very good as the longer he stayed in the line up, the more effective he was. Hainsey's game is at this level now, as is Beauchemin... We technically had 9 ready-made defencemen this year. Julien had a choice, and like he stated for the most part of the year, Bubbles won it by being a bulldog EVERY night on the point for us. That does not consider what his weaknesses are (though they are glaring). It was a lesson taught, now I hope the lesson will be learned (as it should be).
Geoff Ward was playing Hainsey less than any other defensemans on the team, especially when the games came closer... From the games I saw, Hainsey was playing decent, more focussed defensively, but never he was the best Bulldogs defenseman on the ice! He still was too much dangerous for his own team!

What is sad with Hainsey is that you don't see any progression in his game (or very little in some area), he still lack too much grit and quickness for the AHL, what would be even more pathetic in the NHL!

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