HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Los Angeles Kings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Blackhawks Lost Money Last Year (A Fascinating Article)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-01-2010, 11:51 AM
  #26
The Tikkanen
Pest
 
The Tikkanen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Yorba Linda
Country: United States
Posts: 6,427
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to The Tikkanen
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP View Post
Let's not let this little gem slip through. AEG charges a city bed tax just like every other hotel in Los Angeles - the difference is that AEG gets to KEEP the money.

No big deal, you say? How much could that little gift from the City of LA be?

Try $270 million dollars over a 25 year period, so roughly $10 mil per year. (actually, closer to $11 mil per year)

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/dec...l/me-utility17
10 mil a year? Hmmm, why does that number sound very familiar?

The Tikkanen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2010, 01:40 PM
  #27
Sybil227
Registered User
 
Sybil227's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Santa Clarita
Country: United States
Posts: 2,537
vCash: 500
I don't believe this article at all. Nor do I believe the Kings lose money for AEG. If you're willing to split a company up into small enough pieces (in our case AEG, in the Blackhawks, Wirtz), some parts of it are going to lose money - a lot of money - and some are going to bring in money. But you don't get the 2nd without the 1st.
If the company I work for were to split up the earnings from our IT dept and compare it to the other depts, the IT dept would lose TONS of money every year. The fact that every other department depends on them & we wouldn't make ANY money without them we can just easily overlook. This is what stories like this, and AEG protests of the Kings losing money, are.
No Kings, no Staples Center. No Staples Center, no big new hotel downtown. No Staples Center, no LA Live. Staples Center-Kings = lower rents in LA Live (the rents are based in part on the fact that the Kings are going to bring in thousands of people at least 41 nights a year). No Kings means no So. Cal presence for Anschutz - and probably means he doesn't buy Edwards and make Regal.
When you're willing to discount large chunks of money that the LA Kings are responsible for bringing in - because the LA Kings themselves didn't earn it, it's going to be very easy to say that they're losing money. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The Kings - and everything they bring in to AEG generate HUGE cash flow & profits. If they had done nothing but lose money for AEG all this time, they would have been sold.
I don't know all the real estate & ancillary deals with the Blackhawks - but I'm sure the same game is being played. The Blackhawks, I'm sure, are responsible for bringing in lots of money & profits. Not to mention the worth of the club itself as an investment.
Honestly this sounds like more of the same old PR we heard heading into the last lockout.


Last edited by Sybil227: 08-01-2010 at 01:41 PM. Reason: spelling
Sybil227 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2010, 05:10 PM
  #28
Tadite
Registered User
 
Tadite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Rhode Island
Country: United States
Posts: 4,789
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
The salary cap has gone up way to much since the lockout. I think I heard the ceiling post lockout is now the floor. Has revenue gone up that much? I still see no TV deal so is another lockout coming?

The cap should have been much harder and had a enforced lower growth rate.

What as the point of losing a whole season just to run into the same problems only a few years out?

Tadite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 01:36 PM
  #29
piston
Registered User
 
piston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Country: Denmark
Posts: 568
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to piston
If you think the Blackhawks are indeed profitable show us all some evidence to support your conclusion other than 'all millionaires lie all the time'. The author of the article did some homework before writing it. Did you? Doesn't mean he is right but opinions need to be based on more than one's gut or inherent prejudice.

For the record,I believe the Hawks are likely losing money but Wirtz is using the losses to shelter profits at his liquor distributorship from the IRS as he is absolutely entitled to do.


Last edited by Live in the Now: 08-02-2010 at 03:40 PM. Reason: quoted deleted post
piston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 01:50 PM
  #30
JT Dutch*
Cult of Personality
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,548
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by piston View Post
If you think the Blackhawks are indeed profitable show us all some evidence to support your conclusion
... Yeah, that's not how it works, and better yet you KNOW this. The Hawks' owners are the ones crying about their "losses". THEY are the ones making the claim, and it is up to THEM to provide evidence. Until they do, I'm not going to believe them -- it's that simple. Owners crying poverty as an excuse to not retain players or raise prices is a tactic that has been going on since the beginning of time. YOU can choose to believe them all you like; I will not. It's that simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piston View Post
For the record,I believe the Hawks are likely losing money but Wirtz is using the losses to shelter profits at his liquor distributorship from the IRS as he is absolutely entitled to do.
... Good for you if you believe it. I agree to disagree. And of course he's entitled to use the losses as a shelter. I'm not going to sit here and go round and round about accounting with you here in a hockey forum, but suffice it to say I'm not new to the subject matter.


Last edited by Live in the Now: 08-02-2010 at 03:41 PM. Reason: quoted edited post
JT Dutch* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 03:41 PM
  #31
Live in the Now
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Live in the Now's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: LA
Country: United States
Posts: 31,579
vCash: 500
Please talk about this without letting personal barbs get in the way, guys.

Thanks.

Live in the Now is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 03:42 PM
  #32
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
 
KINGS17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 15,618
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Yeah, that's not how it works, and better yet you KNOW this. The Hawks' owners are the ones crying about their "losses". THEY are the ones making the claim, and it is up to THEM to provide evidence. Until they do, I'm not going to believe them -- it's that simple. Owners crying poverty as an excuse to not retain players or raise prices is a tactic that has been going on since the beginning of time. YOU can choose to believe them all you like; I will not. It's that simple.
Look, you don't want to buy tickets, don't buy them. Some of us don't automatically think management is trying to screw us at every turn.


Last edited by Live in the Now: 08-02-2010 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Stop.
KINGS17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 03:51 PM
  #33
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
It is interesting however, that when it comes to players, JT refuses to listen to any opinion not backed up by a stat, but when it comes to ownership, that standard seems to be tossed out the window.

I would like to think we can hold everyone, players, management, ownership and eachother to the same set of standards instead of picking and choosing who gets the benefit of the doubt and who does not.

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 03:53 PM
  #34
JDM
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 9,968
vCash: 500
ooookay. Sorry

JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 03:57 PM
  #35
JT Dutch*
Cult of Personality
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,548
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
It is interesting however, that when it comes to players, JT refuses to listen to any opinion not backed up by a stat, but when it comes to ownership, that standard seems to be tossed out the window.
... OK, JDM -- you go ahead and show me the evidence or the "backup" to support owners' claims of money losses. You have from now until the end of time. Go ahead.

The Kings' owner's mouthpiece, Tim Leiweke, must have earned the name "Lie-Weekly" because of his honesty, right? A guy like him would never say anything that wasn't true.

JT Dutch* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 03:59 PM
  #36
Gentle Ben Kenobi
That's no moon......
 
Gentle Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tatooine
Posts: 21,222
vCash: 413
I am interested to see how much creative accounting goes in to this.

I am sure everyone realizes that team's expenses go way beyond just the cap hit. But for teams like the Kings that own their buildings can easily overcharge for rent.

Gentle Ben Kenobi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 04:10 PM
  #37
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
 
KINGS17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 15,618
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... OK, JDM -- you go ahead and show me the evidence or the "backup" to support owners' claims of money losses. You have from now until the end of time. Go ahead.

The Kings' owner's mouthpiece, Tim Leiweke, must have earned the name "Lie-Weekly" because of his honesty, right? A guy like him would never say anything that wasn't true.
I think he more or less earned that monicker when he kept saying that Allison and Deadmarsh would be back in the lineup sometime soon.

Piston has provided data and information in the Kings' case on numerous occasions, but you choose to ignore it. I can believe that the Kings lose money. However, it is in AEG's best interest to put the best team it can on the ice to bring people to the downtown area where they really make money. Once you have been to Staples Center for any reason odds are you will be back some day to attend a performance at Nokia Center or hang out at one of the other entertainment venues before/after a game.

KINGS17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 04:16 PM
  #38
piston
Registered User
 
piston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Country: Denmark
Posts: 568
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to piston
Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I think he more or less earned that monicker when he kept saying that Allison and Deadmarsh would be back in the lineup sometime soon.

Piston has provided data and information in the Kings' case on numerous occasions, but you choose to ignore it. I can believe that the Kings lose money. However, it is in AEG's best interest to put the best team it can on the ice to bring people to the downtown area where they really make money. Once you have been to Staples Center for any reason odds are you will be back some day to attend a performance at Nokia Center or hang out at one of the other entertainment venues before/after a game.
Thank you. Large businesses such as this look at their enterprise in totality. That is not to say the spotlight is not shined on units that are losing money. The Kings are likely still losing money, but AEG is probably doing quite well. Because they are a private company, they are not under pressure from shareholders to dump the under performing unit.

For those who ask why the cap is going up despite the losses, 1) the cap is based on revenues, not on profits and 2) graph the rise of the cap along with the rise of the Canadian dollar over time. The result is illuminating.

piston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 04:34 PM
  #39
The Tikkanen
Pest
 
The Tikkanen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Yorba Linda
Country: United States
Posts: 6,427
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to The Tikkanen
Quote:
Originally Posted by piston View Post
Thank you. Large businesses such as this look at their enterprise in totality. That is not to say the spotlight is not shined on units that are losing money. The Kings are likely still losing money, but AEG is probably doing quite well. Because they are a private company, they are not under pressure from shareholders to dump the under performing unit.

For those who ask why the cap is going up despite the losses, 1) the cap is based on revenues, not on profits and 2) graph the rise of the cap along with the rise of the Canadian dollar over time. The result is illuminating.
Yes, I was going to say if you are a small business owner and you own 3 McDonalds, 2 of them net you 200K a year and 1 loses 25K you are not losing money. AEG is an empire, the LA Kings are just a small part of it.

The Tikkanen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 04:40 PM
  #40
Gentle Ben Kenobi
That's no moon......
 
Gentle Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tatooine
Posts: 21,222
vCash: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I think he more or less earned that monicker when he kept saying that Allison and Deadmarsh would be back in the lineup sometime soon.
and that nobody wants to win the cup more than him?

Gentle Ben Kenobi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 05:00 PM
  #41
The Tikkanen
Pest
 
The Tikkanen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Yorba Linda
Country: United States
Posts: 6,427
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to The Tikkanen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
and that nobody wants to win the cup more than him?
Didn't he also say the Kings would be big spenders after the Cap and would contend year after year? Hmmm, still no playoff rounds won. I view Lieweekly like the president, he may have good ideas or good promises but it's really not up to him to make the moves neccessary to make the Kings better. He's a mouthpiece and his track record of not being right is not good.

The Tikkanen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 05:33 PM
  #42
Gentle Ben Kenobi
That's no moon......
 
Gentle Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tatooine
Posts: 21,222
vCash: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
Didn't he also say the Kings would be big spenders after the Cap and would contend year after year? Hmmm, still no playoff rounds won. I view Lieweekly like the president, he may have good ideas or good promises but it's really not up to him to make the moves neccessary to make the Kings better. He's a mouthpiece and his track record of not being right is not good.
Yes, he did

He also said "Judge us by our actions this offseason"
And they **** an egg with Roenick, Demitra, LOLabarbera, etc.

He should know that fans don't like him. The more Tim talks, the less I like the guy.
I hope everyone else noticed that He was running his mouth again during the playoffs.

Gentle Ben Kenobi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 05:45 PM
  #43
KingPurpleDinosaur
Bandwagon Kings Fan
 
KingPurpleDinosaur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: irvine, ca
Posts: 2,884
vCash: 500
how is it people don't believe owners? People who look into their books have said the same thing time after time. If you don't believe Piston, what about Luc? Luc coudln't believe it and he said the same thing. And don't even go into the "now he's part of the front office staff", come on, do you think Luc would be turned that easily? Luc just doesn't seem like a person who would say anything other than the truth from what he knows it as.

When you see these contracts being thrown out, I don't understand how you don't think this is a problem. Kovalchuk is gettin ga $10 million contract, this is back to where we were at with pre-lockout days again...

KingPurpleDinosaur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 05:54 PM
  #44
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
 
KINGS17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 15,618
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by piston View Post
Thank you. Large businesses such as this look at their enterprise in totality. That is not to say the spotlight is not shined on units that are losing money. The Kings are likely still losing money, but AEG is probably doing quite well. Because they are a private company, they are not under pressure from shareholders to dump the under performing unit.

For those who ask why the cap is going up despite the losses, 1) the cap is based on revenues, not on profits and 2) graph the rise of the cap along with the rise of the Canadian dollar over time. The result is illuminating.
Fortunately for the players, this situation is unlikely to change anytime soon.

KINGS17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 05:54 PM
  #45
johnjm22
16,005
 
johnjm22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Barstow, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,491
vCash: 500
I'm bored at work, so here's some numbers to consider.

Chicago Blackhawks
Avg Attendance 21,356
Avg Ticket Cost $46.80
# of Home Games 41 (Regular Season)

$46.80 x 21,356 x 41 = $40,977,892.8

This is of course without parking, food, merch sales, ect.

-

The Fan Cost Index™ (FCI), might give us a better idea of how much revenue the Blackhawks generate from home games.

The index comprises the prices of four (4) average-price tickets, two (2) small draft beers, four (4) small soft drinks, four (4) regular-size hot dogs, parking for one (1) car, two (2) game
programs and two (2) least-expensive, adult-size adustable caps.


Chicagos' FCI is $312.38

21,356 / 4 = 5339
5339 x $312.38 = $1,667,796.82
$1,667,796.82 x 41 = $68,379,669.62

Using this formula, we can estimate that Chicago generated somewhere around 70 million dollars in revenue from their regular season home games in 09-10. It's a very rough estimate. But it helps put things into perspective.

This does not include the costs of actually hosting the game, which are substantial. Hockey teams in general, I'd imagine are very expensive to operate.

johnjm22 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 11:45 PM
  #46
Herby
Culture Changer
 
Herby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago
Country: United States
Posts: 15,167
vCash: 500
I can also say the amount of Hawks merchandise sold here is unbelievable, they literally could not keep the stuff in the stores. The amount of people sporting Hawks gear is similar to the amount of people in SoCal who wear Lakers stuff.

If the Hawks truly did lose money, with as much buzz as they had in this city, then I really fear that the rumors of another lockout in a couple of years are sadly true.

Herby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 11:54 PM
  #47
KingPurpleDinosaur
Bandwagon Kings Fan
 
KingPurpleDinosaur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: irvine, ca
Posts: 2,884
vCash: 500
I, personally, hope the lockout controls the salary. It was a good shot, on the last one, but it's gota tighten up even more. The cheaper the salary, the cheaper tickets are for us. If there's anyone who should be on the owner's sides, it should be the fans...

KingPurpleDinosaur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2010, 11:58 PM
  #48
Herby
Culture Changer
 
Herby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago
Country: United States
Posts: 15,167
vCash: 500
I think another lockout would be the end of many franchises.

Don Fehr being a part of the NHLPA is not good news for hockey fans.

Herby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 02:56 AM
  #49
PSP
Couldn't Be Happier!
 
PSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lake Forest, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,290
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by piston View Post
Thank you. Large businesses such as this look at their enterprise in totality. That is not to say the spotlight is not shined on units that are losing money. The Kings are likely still losing money, but AEG is probably doing quite well. Because they are a private company, they are not under pressure from shareholders to dump the under performing unit.
Phil, you can't have it both ways. If a large business like AEG looks at their enterprise in totality and, by your own admission, is doing quite well - isn't it disingenuous at best to cry that one unit is losing money? I doubt very seriously that their IT department or maintenance department "make money" for AEG, but that also doesn't mean that they aren't responsible for the success of the enterprise in its totality.

I don't doubt for a second that if the Kings were a net negative to the overall AEG conglomerate, that they would end up being sold off - Uncle Phil is way too smart and savvy to do anything else.

PSP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-03-2010, 03:11 AM
  #50
PSP
Couldn't Be Happier!
 
PSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lake Forest, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,290
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
I, personally, hope the lockout controls the salary. It was a good shot, on the last one, but it's gota tighten up even more. The cheaper the salary, the cheaper tickets are for us. If there's anyone who should be on the owner's sides, it should be the fans...
Did the tickets get any cheaper after the last lockout? No, they didn't.

Let's not forget that the salary cap is set at less than 60% of the league average e from hockey related revenue. That means that the average NHL team pulls in around $100 mil in revenue. If they are "losing money", they are using those "losses" to offset even bigger gains in other places.

Really, I don't begrudge them their profits - they work hard for them - just stop trying to act like the hockey team is a net loss to them.

...and how much more is a hockey franchise worth now than it was 15 years ago?

PSP is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:20 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.