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THN.com Blog: What if Thomas Vanek became an Oiler?

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08-01-2010, 09:48 PM
  #1
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THN.com Blog: What if Thomas Vanek became an Oiler?

Here's a dead horse ready for kicking.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...-an-Oiler.html

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Youíll forgive me, Sabres fans, if these next several hundred words come off as cheeky or even heart-wrenching. But last week I got to thinking about the exciting crop of rookies Edmonton has joining them this coming season Ė and how they all could have been Buffalo Sabres.

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08-01-2010, 10:15 PM
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Will this discussion never end?

If my aunt would have a penis she would be my uncle.....
Let's get past this, please...

The sabres had no other choice that time.
Vanek is a proven 40 goalscorer if healthy. And that kind of players doesn't grow on trees. Just imagine if he would get the ice time real superstars get too...

Vanek hasn't had a great season last year because of his injuries.
But most nights he was the most dangerous player out there. He cared.
And he tried to help the team when it mattered the most.

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08-01-2010, 10:20 PM
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We still don't know how things would have turned out. There is on predictive model to KNOW that the Sabres would have wound up with the selections Edmonton used since there is no way of knowing what Vanek would have done for them over the course of the intervening seasons. It's thin conjecture.

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08-01-2010, 10:21 PM
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Ahh yes, the assumption that the Oilers would have achieved the same exact draft positions with Vanek as they did without. It's revisionist history that is based on faulty logic to suggest that Taylor Hall, for instance, would be a Sabre.

They wouldn't have gotten Penner. Vanek would have made their team better. Who knows what other personnel moves they would have then made. Their cap situation is completely different. And on and on and on.

It's a futile argument to be made, and only those with agendas would make it.

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08-01-2010, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveDaSwords View Post
Ahh yes, the assumption that the Oilers would have achieved the same exact draft positions with Vanek as they did without. It's revisionist history that is based on faulty logic to suggest that Taylor Hall, for instance, would be a Sabre.

They wouldn't have gotten Penner. Vanek would have made their team better. Who knows what other personnel moves they would have then made. Their cap situation is completely different. And on and on and on.

It's a futile argument to be made, and only those with agendas would make it.
This nails it pretty well. How long ago was this done? Can we stop now? It's not even journalism it's a flimsy and terrible opinion.

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08-01-2010, 11:51 PM
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While we're at it, why not the "What if Buffalo won the 2005 Crosby lottery?"

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08-02-2010, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Vito_81 View Post
While we're at it, why not the "What if Buffalo won the 2005 Crosby lottery?"
Much more realistic question to be asking. The repercussions of that would be clear. The repercussions of Vanek going to Edmonton are very unclear and ambiguous.

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08-02-2010, 03:37 AM
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Omg they would have used the 4 picks to trade for crosby. Omg



Or they could've ended up with 2 staffords and 2 pailles or 4 huge bustimens.

Next weeks special: what if the co captains would've stayed in buffalo?

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08-02-2010, 04:39 AM
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If Vanek had become an Oiler, I would have been happier.

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Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
Will this discussion never end?
No, I donít think so. If you make a mistake, youíll hear about it every now and then. For me, it was a mistake to match that offersheet.

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Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
The sabres had no other choice that time.
How about not matching?

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Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
Vanek is a proven 40 goalscorer if healthy. And that kind of players doesn't grow on trees.
Yes, but his cap hit is 14th overall in the whole league, 12th among forwards. So heís in the same categorie as Thornton ($7,200,000), and above players like Datsyuk, Toews, Backstrom, the Sedins, Ö . Heís clearly overpaid and the compensation was very good, meaningless who they would have drafted.

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But most nights he was the most dangerous player out there. He cared.
And he tried to help the team when it mattered the most.
Again, he is the highest paid player on this roster, even above Miller. He has to be the leader in everything. If you pay a player that much money he has to be your best forward! Anything else is not acceptable.

I have to admit that there are other stupid contracts (like Campbell, Gomez) in the NHL, too. But this is no justification for Vanekís bad contract. Moreover, the Sabres had the choice to get several high draft picks, which makes the decision to match even worse.


Last edited by Salzig: 08-02-2010 at 04:57 AM.
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08-02-2010, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Salzig View Post
If Vanek had become an Oiler, I would have been happier.



No, I donít think so. If you make a mistake, youíll hear about it every now and then. For me, it was a mistake to match that offersheet.



How about not matching?



Yes, but his cap hit is 14th overall in the whole league, 12th among forwards. So heís in the same categorie as Thornton ($7,200,000), and above players like Datsyuk, Toews, Backstrom, the Sedins, Ö . Heís clearly overpaid and the compensation was very good, meaningless who they would have drafted.



Again, he is the highest paid player on this roster, even above Miller. He has to be the leader in everything. If you pay a player that much money he has to be your best forward! Anything else is not acceptable.

I have to admit that there are other stupid contracts (like Campbell, Gomez) in the NHL, too. But this is no justification for Vanekís bad contract. Moreover, the Sabres had the choice to get several high draft picks, which makes the decision to match even worse.
If you were living in the WNY area at the time of the offer sheet you'd know there wasn't a choice of matching it. The town was pissed at the time since the Sabres just let their two captains go and now EDM of all teams puts out a monster contract to their best young winger. If they'd have walked, especially because it would be directly seen as not wanting to pay that type of money, the Sabres would have had riots on their hands. It would have sent a horrible, horrible message to their at the time huge fanbase who just enjoyed two wild years.

In a vaccum yeah it probably wasn't a good deal, but it was a deal they had to match. If Drury resigns then maybe they can justify walking on that offfer, otherwise its game over for all the good will and good feeling they finally got back after a few rough years before the lockout.

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08-02-2010, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by future consideration View Post
If you were living in the WNY area at the time of the offer sheet you'd know there wasn't a choice of matching it. The town was pissed at the time since the Sabres just let their two captains go and now EDM of all teams puts out a monster contract to their best young winger. If they'd have walked, especially because it would be directly seen as not wanting to pay that type of money, the Sabres would have had riots on their hands.
Well, as you probably see on my join date, I followed that whole Vanek story. Youíre right, I wasnít living in the WNY area, but I understand what youíre talking about.


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It would have sent a horrible, horrible message to their at the time huge fanbase who just enjoyed two wild years.
Well, I think they did the wrong thing. I donít think that the fans would have been that angry. I remember the discussions about Lowe at that point and nearly everyone called him insane. I mean, he made Vanek to one of the best paid players in the entire league, a player who had just played two NHL seasons at that point. Everyone who knows hockey, knows that Vanek is overpaid. I think itís just nonprofessional to match an offer sheet because of the fans. If youíre a GM you need the balls to make some questionable* decisions. Moreover, I think if you present the situation properly to the fans, itís relatively easy to explain the decision of not matching this offer sheet. Darcy could have said that itís irresponsible to give such a deal to a player who has just played his sophomore season. Moreover, the Sabres have a special treatment towards prospects, they have to work their way to the NHL. I canít think of a player besides Myers who made the NHL without playing in the AHL before. (Iím following the Sabres since 2005). I think itís inconsequent to give them that much money after their sophomore campaign.

They should have admitted that the Sabres wonít have a shot at the cup in the 2007/08 season. I think everyone knew that. Therefore, itís easy to say ďWe let Vanek walk because we want to rebuild our team, weíll start another cup run in about three yearsĒ. Yes, the fans would be very disappointed, but was there another alternative? Everyone who knows the NHL, knew that the Sabres were done. You need to be honest in those situations and you have to make smart decisions to get back on track.

I think the only people who would have beend angry are the bandwagonjumpers/dumb hockey fans. So what? Theyíll come back as soon as the Sabres start to win games again. The league contains 30 teams. It's very difficult to win the Stanley Cup, people should know that it takes some time to rebuild your team to finally win it. (unless your franchise is called "Red Wings")

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08-02-2010, 07:46 AM
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how does anyone know Hall will score 40 goals in his career? How do you know with Vanek Edmonton makes the playoffs last year and we get **** picks? And hey one good point with Vanek we would of finished likely in a different position in the standings during Myers draft year and thus.....No Tyler Myers....

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08-02-2010, 07:47 AM
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If only I didn't eat those Krispy Kremes, I wouldn't feel bloated. Vanek is a franchise player and you can't let those guys walk.

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08-02-2010, 08:04 AM
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The only thing I'll add is that we don't know who the Sabres would've picked in those drafts, even assuming Vanek made no impact on their standing (bad assumption given that Penner was pretty bad until this past season). Would Buffalo have really drafted Eberle at #22 and Ennis at #26? I doubt it, especially when you look at how big the rest of their draft classes have been recently. They probably would've picked one or the other. At this point, we don't know who will be the better player. Also, I could have seen them picking Cuma, Nemisz or Carlson with one of those picks. Those players range from possible bust (Cuma) to probable stud (Carlson). Who knows what would've happened. Next, there's a definite possibility that they wouldn't have picked MP-S. I could easily envision a scenario where Darcy wanted to make sure he got his man (Kassian) at #10, MP-S picked at #11 or #12, and then picked Josefson (who everyone suspects was their second option if Kassian was gone) at #13. The bottom line is that the picks would've been nice, but it's way too oversimplified to say Buffalo would've had Eberle or MP-S.

That said, I do still think Edmonton would've had the #1 pick this past year. Their season was a comedy of errors and injuries. The Oilers finished a startling 12 pts worse than the next worst team in the NHL. To think that Vanek, in what was a pretty poor season for him, would've represented such a significant upgrade over Penner--who played rather well for most of this season--that Vanek would've helped Edmonton achieve 13 or more points, thereby decreasing their chances for the #1 pick, is rationalization at its finest. Edmonton was icing a really putrid team for most of last season, thanks to injuries to Khabby and Hemsky. The Vanek Apologists often clamor "Vanek needs a true #1 center," but what if his centers were Horcoff, Gagner and Cogs? Those guys make Roy and Connolly look like All-Stars.

In sum, I think Hall/Seguin would've been ours, but one of Eberle and Ennis would not be ours, and I can envision a somewhat likely scenario where Regier bungled the 2009 draft and didn't select MPS.

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08-02-2010, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Ddubs View Post
If only I didn't eat those Krispy Kremes, I wouldn't feel bloated. Vanek is a franchise player and you can't let those guys walk.
Vanek is not a franchise player under even the loosest definitions of the term. He's showed flashes, including last year in his last five games, but he's never taken the reins on this team. Fortunately, Miller is a franchise player, and Myers is likely one, too.

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08-02-2010, 08:09 AM
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If Vanek had gone to Edmonton, perhaps the Oilers fanbase (or rather the Sabres') would be salivating over Dylan McIlrath right now rather than Taylor Hall.

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08-02-2010, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Vanek is not a franchise player under even the loosest definitions of the term. He's showed flashes, including last year in his last five games, but he's never taken the reins on this team. Fortunately, Miller is a franchise player, and Myers is likely one, too.
Let me step back from that comment. At the time of the offer sheet he was considered a franchise player or at least close to it.

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08-02-2010, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Ddubs View Post
Let me step back from that comment. At the time of the offer sheet he was considered a franchise player or at least close to it.
I think that's a fair statement, which is why I don't ridicule the organization for matching. You have to put on management's shoes at the time the decision was made. You don't let go of a 23 yr old who just scored 87 pts in his 2nd NHL season. I still think Vanek is rounding out his game, and should be a 70+ pt player this season, but I have my doubts as to whether he ever becomes that franchise player we all hope he can become. But, as I said, the burden is off him a little bit because of Miller's ascension and Myers's abilities.


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08-02-2010, 08:42 AM
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I think that's a fair statement, which is why I don't ridicule the organization for matching. You have to put on management's shoes at the time the decision was made. You don't let go of a 23 yr old who just scored 87 pts in his 2nd NHL season. I still think Vanek is rounding out his game, and should be a 70+ pt player this season, but I have my doubts as to whether he ever becomes that franchise player we all hope he can become. But, as I said, the burden is off him a little bit because of Miller's ascension and Myers's abilities.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, a 'franchise' scoring winger needs a complimentary pivot that can feed him the puck.

That is lacking, and I doubt he gets back to the 3rd line scoring totals that he had until the Sabres get one in the system.

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08-02-2010, 08:44 AM
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Yes the oilers could have been bad, but maybe they'd would've been healthy last year or could have built a completly different team over the years. We'll never know where the picks would've been.
We'll never know what regier would've done with the cap space and the picks.

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08-02-2010, 09:09 AM
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Remember when the Hurricanes gave up 3 first rounders to the Bruins for Defenseman Glen Wesley??
It was thought to be a huge steal for Boston, who subsequently TOOK the picks and drafted Kyle McLaren, Sergei Samsonov and Johnathon Aitken. (When the Canes won the Cup in '06, Wesley was still playing and all three of the Bruins picks were gone.)
I don't think it matters how many prospects you have, it's how the team develops them. In hindsight, it would have been nice to keep Briere and been able to let Vanek walk for the picks, but that idea may have already been mentioned a few million times.

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08-02-2010, 09:28 AM
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ZOMG! The Sabres could have ended up with HalL!? Sooooo stoopid!



Seriously....I hate this argument. I've hated it for years. I will continue to hate it every stupid time it's brought up.

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08-02-2010, 10:00 AM
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If Vanek were on Edmonton he'd get to play on Hemsky's line. If Vanek and Hemsky were on the same line, Edmonton's draft picks wouldn't be nearly as high. So we would not have gotten Hall/Eberle/MPS/etc...

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08-02-2010, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by vile21 View Post
how does anyone know Hall will score 40 goals in his career?
That's a good point. Oilers drafts have been so bad for the last 2+ decades that I think the Bruins caught a break when they lost the lottery.

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08-02-2010, 12:42 PM
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I honestly think Vanek would've been a better player for the Oilers than he's been for us.

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