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Willie Mitchell narrows it down to 4 teams-Sharks are one of them

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Old
08-06-2010, 09:28 PM
  #126
Kitten Mittons
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
And Joe Thornton can make anyone a Rocket Richard winner.
Precisely. And yet no one wants Cheechoo back.

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08-06-2010, 10:24 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post

- Bringing Boyle in definitely made it more difficult to keep the good young defense. I attribute the loss of Ehrhoff at least in part to Boyle's presence. Ehrhoff and Carle last year combined outscored Boyle by more than 20 points, while costing pretty much the same in salary.
Really? I contributed the loss of Ehrhoff to Huskins.

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08-06-2010, 10:28 PM
  #128
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Really? I contributed the loss of Ehrhoff to Huskins.
I did to Blake. Or maybe some internal issues we are unaware of.

I blame Huskins signing on Lukowich - same salaries.

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08-06-2010, 10:40 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
- Bringing Boyle in definitely made it more difficult to keep the good young defense. I attribute the loss of Ehrhoff at least in part to Boyle's presence. Ehrhoff and Carle last year combined outscored Boyle by more than 20 points, while costing pretty much the same in salary.
That's really too bad you wanna hang onto that. Ehrhoff had about as much of a chance staying with the Sharks as Nabby did this year.

Ehrhoff is good for one more year and gets his payday and Carle is good for 2 and then gets his or could bolt. Boyle is ours for 4 more years and yes I think you undervalue what he brings to the team and will continue to do so.

It's apples and oranges and you can't make a direct comparison as to what would/will happen, but we definitely disagree on whether or not we should have acquired Boyle.

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Old
08-06-2010, 10:44 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
Precisely. And yet no one wants Cheechoo back.
I DO! Say give him a 1 year 1 mil deal. Get him back into his Rocket Richard form!

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08-06-2010, 11:14 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
I don't actually think he will trade Vlasic for Kaberle, but it is the sort of retarded move I would expect him to make. Honestly, I expect something more along the lines of Clowe for Souray, straight up. Or Clowe+our 2011 1st+Petrecki for Kaberle. Basically, I expect another horrifically bad trade.

As for Boyle, I said at the time it would take at least 3 years to have a pretty good assessment of the deal, but I'm still leaning to it being a bad move. It hasn't been 3 years yet, but some of things I expected have come true:

- Carle got much better defensively, and is now significantly better than Boyle at the defensive side the game. Carle is closer now to a 2-way player, and not nearly as one-dimensional. And he's really starting to show the hockey sense and intelligence that made him a Hobey Baker winner.

- Bringing Boyle in definitely made it more difficult to keep the good young defense. I attribute the loss of Ehrhoff at least in part to Boyle's presence. Ehrhoff and Carle last year combined outscored Boyle by more than 20 points, while costing pretty much the same in salary.

- Boyle is still a one-dimensional player, and despite his offensive gifts, I don't really see that he's had a huge impact on the team. I see nothing that he has brought that a combo of Carle and Ehrhoff would not have brought. He improved the Sharks ability to get the puck skated up the ice, but with the loss of Ehrhoff, it's right back to where it was before (only one d-man who can do it).

- Boyle was supposed to significantly improve our PP, but I haven't seen it yet. Ehrhoff and Boyle had the same number of PP goals last year. Boyle did have 6 more PP assists, but he also had 85 full minutes more on the PP than Ehrhoff in which to get them.

- The 1st is hard to pick, as I'm not sure I have any idea how good Palmieri is going to be.

- It's hard to tell on Wishart. If he totally pans, the Boyle deal becomes better (but still not good IMO). If he steps up this year and plays well, the Boyle deal continues to be bad IMO.

At this point, I would still prefer to have Carle and that $3+ mil in cap space over Boyle.

So, in summary, my current judgment is still that the Boyle deal was a bad one. With the caveat that my initial 3 years for the assessment isn't up yet. But honestly, I don't expect it change.
Boyle is not one-demensional and is certainly better than Carle defensively.

Also if Ehrhoff and Carle didnt outscore Boyle that would be really sad. Also picking quality over quantity gave demers room to play on the third pairing. He scored over 20 points and I would much rather have Demers and Boyle than Carle and Ehrhoff to be honest.

I guess you have the right to an opinion but i dont think you will be sharing it with anyone else to be honest.

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08-06-2010, 11:15 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by cheechoo1860 View Post
I DO! Say give him a 1 year 1 mil deal. Get him back into his Rocket Richard form!
The day Cheechoo wins the Richard trophy again, will be the same season the Sharks win the Stanley Cup.

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08-06-2010, 11:18 PM
  #133
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The day Cheechoo wins the Richard trophy again, will be the same season the Sharks win the Stanley Cup.
Are you telling me we'll NEVER win the Cup???

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08-06-2010, 11:24 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
Are you telling me we'll NEVER win the Cup???
It better happen soon! Honestly, I believe we are three (maybe four) seasons away from commencing a rebuild phase. Our window opened say four years ago, and it's closing up soon.

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08-06-2010, 11:31 PM
  #135
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I don't think we will ever be rebuilding. Marleau and Thornton will still be stars in 3-4 years. We might not make the playoffs after them but I highly doubt we'll ever be bottom feeders.

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08-06-2010, 11:38 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
I don't think we will ever be rebuilding. Marleau and Thornton will still be stars in 3-4 years. We might not make the playoffs after them but I highly doubt we'll ever be bottom feeders.
Agreed. I never expect the Sharks to become bottom feeders with back-to-back 1/1 picks. Though there will be a period where most early round picks will be retained and some strategic development acquisitions.

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08-06-2010, 11:46 PM
  #137
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Agreed on all points about Boyle. He is so unbelievably important to this team. If he is the one player that if taken out of the lineup our team is hurt the most (yes, more important than Joe Thornton). He is top 6-7 (top 5 if you ask me) at his position, it is simply foolish to disregard the impact of such a player

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08-07-2010, 01:20 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
Boyle is not one-demensional and is certainly better than Carle defensively.

Also if Ehrhoff and Carle didnt outscore Boyle that would be really sad. Also picking quality over quantity gave demers room to play on the third pairing. He scored over 20 points and I would much rather have Demers and Boyle than Carle and Ehrhoff to be honest.

I guess you have the right to an opinion but i dont think you will be sharing it with anyone else to be honest.
If you think Boyle isn't a one-dimensional defenseman, then there is no way we can talk about that subject. He's a defensive liability 90+% of the time he's on the ice. He's not as atrocious in SJ as he was in Tampa, but he's really not good. And if you don't think Carle isn't better, you simply weren't watching Carle. Carle was 31st in the league among defensemen in blocked shots. That's not a stat you can say Pronger has any effect on. DW's target Hjalmarsson was 32nd. The best Shark was 43rd on that list.

As for "picking quantity over quality", we'll just disagree on the quality. I think Carle and Ehrhoff both bring more to the table all around than Boyle does. And the absense of either had no effect on Demers ability to play in the NHL. If the Sharks had not made the Boyle trade and just kept the young defensemen they had, the d-corps would look like this:

Carle-Vlasic
Ehrhoff-Murray
Wallin/Huskins/Moore/Demers/Joslin/Wishart/???

There would be nothing in that line-up that would have prevented Demers from playing in the NHL. And rather than people moaning about the need for 2 more top-4 defensemen, we would need 1 at the most (if you don't consider Murray eligible).

And when Demers has a sophmore slump this year or next year are you going to want to trade him too and say he "sucks" because he obviously couldn't hack it in the NHL?

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08-07-2010, 01:25 AM
  #139
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Dan Boyle is an elite offensive puck-moving defenseman. Easily better than Carle and Ehrhoff, imo.

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08-07-2010, 01:29 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
That's really too bad you wanna hang onto that. Ehrhoff had about as much of a chance staying with the Sharks as Nabby did this year.

Ehrhoff is good for one more year and gets his payday and Carle is good for 2 and then gets his or could bolt. Boyle is ours for 4 more years and yes I think you undervalue what he brings to the team and will continue to do so.

It's apples and oranges and you can't make a direct comparison as to what would/will happen, but we definitely disagree on whether or not we should have acquired Boyle.
I don't consider that a good thing. I do not consider being stuck paying a guy $6.66 mil a year until he is 39 a good thing.

And no, I don't underestimate Boyle's importance. I think many other Sharks fans vastly over-rate his importance. If Boyle was the "key" that some many make him out to be, the Sharks would have won the Cup. After all, wasn't that the whole rallying cry? "We got Boyle!! We're a lock to win the Cup now!! All we needed was a top-shelf PMD and this team is virtually guaranteed a Cup!!" All the sorts of things people said when Boyle was acquired, and yet his presence has had virtually zero positive impact on the Sharks in the playoffs.

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08-07-2010, 01:32 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by SJfortheCUP View Post
Dan Boyle is an elite offensive puck-moving defenseman. Easily better than Carle and Ehrhoff, imo.
He's a better PMD right now. I certainly agree with that. But he's not a better defenseman than either of them at this point. Both Carle and Ehrhoff are better defensively. Ehrhoff has WAY better mobility. Ehrhoff also has a better shot. Carle and Boyle are about equal on passing. Carle see's the ice better. And in offense, he's not worlds better than either. He's only about 10% better than Ehrhoff, and about 15-20% better than Carle right now. Carle is still improving his offensive game and I still believe that by next year or the year after Carle will be better offensively that Boyle is now.

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08-07-2010, 01:34 AM
  #142
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I love how another thread on this forum has turned into Vassa's biased opinions on the Boyle trade.

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08-07-2010, 01:40 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by D Huang View Post
Agreed on all points about Boyle. He is so unbelievably important to this team. If he is the one player that if taken out of the lineup our team is hurt the most (yes, more important than Joe Thornton). He is top 6-7 (top 5 if you ask me) at his position, it is simply foolish to disregard the impact of such a player
Really? Top 5? I like Boyle as a PMD (although I think he's too expensive), but he's not a Top 5 defenseman. I'm not even sure I would call him a Top 5 PMD.

Lidstrom
Green
Weber
Keith
Pronger

I would rate those 5 as better period. But I think you have to put these guys in the discussion too for those 6-10 range:

Doughty
Gonchar
Enstrom
Streit
Chara
Kaberle
Visnofsky

He's probably better right now than Gonchar, but it's still close, and only because Gonchar is in decline. Doughty is young, and so drops a bit because he's still unproven. But in skill, I'm not sure he's definitively ahead of any of those guys. So I'll agree he's Top 15. But he's definitely not Top 5, and there is a good argument that he's not Top 10.

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08-07-2010, 01:42 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by joe2cheech View Post
I love how another thread on this forum has turned into Vassa's biased opinions on the Boyle trade.
I was asked, so

And I just love how my opinions are "biased", but yours aren't. Do you work for Fox News by any chance?

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08-07-2010, 01:44 AM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Ehrhoff also has a better shot. Carle see's the ice better. And in offense, he's not worlds better than either. He's only about 10% better than Ehrhoff, and about 15-20% better than Carle
If Ehrhoff's shot hits the net that is
Boyle sees the ice VERY WELL, so that's debatable
He's a lot more than 10% better than Error, who takes dumbass penalties at the wrong time, misses the net, is average defensively, and had his chance to prove himself with San Jose. He's just a better fit for Vancouver - that's it, that's all. Get over it people!

Not sure about Carle - he definitely has potential...

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08-07-2010, 01:51 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by BigDmitriy View Post
If Ehrhoff's shot hits the net that is
Boyle sees the ice VERY WELL, so that's debatable
He's a lot more than 10% better than Error, who takes dumbass penalties at the wrong time, misses the net, is average defensively, and had his chance to prove himself with San Jose. He's just a better fit for Vancouver - that's it, that's all. Get over it people!

Not sure about Carle - he definitely has potential...
Boyle had nearly twice as many penalty minutes as Ehrhoff last year. 70 to Ehrhoffs 42. Carle only had 16. So if you want to talk about penalties, Boyle is by far the worst. He's worse than both Ehrhoff and Carle combined.

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08-07-2010, 02:30 AM
  #147
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I appreciate Vassa because he doesn't drink the cool-aid, and has a solid eye for the game but for the love of god man, you sound like a broken record.

Dan Boyle is an exceptional defenseman. He is one of the top 5 passers, powerplay quarterbacks, dangler, and skaters among d-men. He is a solid penalty killer, and has a good active stick on defense. Is he Regher, Mitchell, or Hejda defensively? No, but even if he put up 20 points per game, his skating and defensive abilities would have him in the nhl.

Now I wouldn't put him in the top 5, but he is very much in the top 7 which I think D Huang had as a qualifier, even if he felt that 5 was a reasonable opinion.

I have it as:
Keith
Chara
Lidstrom
Pronger
Weber
Doughty/Boyle

is Green a better puckmover? Absolutely. However, Green, like to Kaberle, Campbell, and Visnovsky, are attrocious defensively, while Boyle is average- even Easy has placed him as a top 4 defensively (not to say you or anyone else has to take his word for it, but like you, I'd say he doesn't drink the cool-aid). Same goes for Enstrom (note his 24 seconds per game of pk time- 6th of the Thrash) and Gonchar (maybe he was heavy a Marleau-esque crushed feeling of leaving the his team during the players, but as you noted, he's fallen off quite a bit). Streit is a true two-way player, and has been on my most underrated list since he left the Habs, but no way I'd rather have Boyle.

I can assure you, I loved Ehrhoff, and I have not forgiven Wilson for losing him, because as I believed and stated prior to the acquisition of Heatley, we weren't going to win the cup without having both of them, however, that doesn't have anything do with Boyle, but with the overpayment of Huskins (should have just kept the inferior Lukowich and looked for an upgrade at the #6 come trade deadline), Blake (wasn't a four million player until playoffs- and did he really need that much?), and Mitchell (outplayed by Talbot, Kennedy, and Helm, yet he got 250-600k more than each despite a year of being injured- players gm or not, play some hardball). Not to mention keeping Douglas Murray- who while awesome and very unique (not unlike Ehrhoff) cost 2.5 million cost 80% of what Ehrhoff did. Keeping Ehrhoff and Lukowich rather than Huskins, Murray would have been an extra 450k- easily covered by giving Mitchell a raise more in line with what he deserved.

Than again, if you subscribe to Easy's potential theory of Boyle wanting Ehrhoff gone due to being a threat to his powerplay and even strength toi, that you have a point- but personally I don't.

In essence, Vaasa, I just feel you are putting blame on Boyle or the Boyle acquisition for the wrong reasons. Even if we had Carle, Ehrhoff, Vlasic, Murray, Wishart, Petrecki, we'd all be begging for a #1. Maybe the first three have it in them, but I think we'd be looking like Vancouver's D without Hambuis (god knows we can't sign free agents), and while excellent and deep, you still have many Nuck fans who feel that they need a #1, despite having four #2 d-men, to win the cup.

Also, I don't recall too many on this board who believed Boyle guaranteed a cup- maybe a few, but I don't recall a single of the regulars or posters I follow in particular, having such beliefs. Even if having Boyle made us the clear cut favorite and it may have- had it not been for Chicago being in a situation of having a $65 million team on a $54 million cap, though I personally don't think so- you wouldn't have found many guarantees. For what its worth- I had Chicago vs. the field for a good portion of the year, simply because I felt having Campbell as their #3 and a bottom 6 including Ladd, Versteeg, Madden, Brouwer, Kopecy, Burish, and Eager made them a nightmare of a matchup.

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08-07-2010, 03:17 AM
  #148
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vancouver is stacked on dmen so mitchell probably wont return there.
detroit has a pretty solid 6 and are against the cab so thats not looking good.
washington could use a dman.
so i'd say its between us and washington
Coming from a Canucks fan, Mitchell will be finding his way home to the Canucks again, Salo is out (AGAIN!!!) with a torn achilles tendon for upwards of 6 months, nobody will be shocked if Alberts is buried in the minors and that is more than enough for Willie. What will likely happen is that Bieksa will either be traded after Kaberle is dealt or not (August 15th), or we wait until the trade deadline and deal Bieksa then just in time for Salo to become healthy once again.

Expect Bieksa to be moved to the Kings, Sharks, Ducks or the Blue Jackets

Keep in mind that Mitchell will be getting good minutes with us, where he lives and the team who he was basically the captain of and we're prepared to offer him $1.5 mil per season with bonuses and I doubt that any player will uproot their family for the same price when they were with a cup contending team with one of the strongest defence cores in the league as of this off-season.

Hamhuis/Ballard
Edler/Erhoff
Mitchell/Salo
O'Brien/Rome

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08-07-2010, 03:42 AM
  #149
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Coming from a Canucks fan, Mitchell will be finding his way home to the Canucks again, Salo is out (AGAIN!!!) with a torn achilles tendon for upwards of 6 months, nobody will be shocked if Alberts is buried in the minors and that is more than enough for Willie. What will likely happen is that Bieksa will either be traded after Kaberle is dealt or not (August 15th), or we wait until the trade deadline and deal Bieksa then just in time for Salo to become healthy once again.

Expect Bieksa to be moved to the Kings, Sharks, Ducks or the Blue Jackets

Keep in mind that Mitchell will be getting good minutes with us, where he lives and the team who he was basically the captain of and we're prepared to offer him $1.5 mil per season with bonuses and I doubt that any player will uproot their family for the same price when they were with a cup contending team with one of the strongest defence cores in the league as of this off-season.

Hamhuis/Ballard
Edler/Erhoff
Mitchell/Salo
O'Brien/Rome
I count Mitchell as four or five in that group, but I am extremely high on Ballard and Ehrhoff, with Edler also being better and Hambuis being debatable (I think he is better). He will get more minutes from San Jose, who also happens to be a contender, though I think Vancouver appears to clearly be a better team (in early August). With San Jose he would also likely get more money, and perhaps, and in my opinion more importantly, a lengthier term. That said, my guess is he stays, but I do think San Jose can offer a contract that would force Mitchell to choose between home and money, because if the money is the same, the Sharks don't stand a chance.

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08-07-2010, 10:51 AM
  #150
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Vaasa,

Boyle was 6 in voting for the Norrris this season, Carle and Ehrhoff were not even on the board. I like both of those guys, and would love to have them back, but I'd also make the Boyle trade again in a second.


I could actually see DW coming out of left field and bringing in another stud top pairing d-man. I know we all have low expectations, and I'm not saying he should spend that kind of money, but I also wouldn't be surprised at all. If it wasn't for his contract, I bet DW would even go after Pronger again.

It'll be a big trade, and it will drastically chance the complexion of the team, for good or bad.

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