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Willie Mitchell narrows it down to 4 teams-Sharks are one of them

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Old
08-07-2010, 11:07 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Vaasa,

Boyle was 6 in voting for the Norrris this season, Carle and Ehrhoff were not even on the board. I like both of those guys, and would love to have them back, but I'd also make the Boyle trade again in a second.
?

1. Duncan Keith 1096 76 37 14 2 1
2. Mike Green 831 34 46 23 15 9
3. Drew Doughty 662 15 28 46 25 11
4. Nicklas Lidstrom 303 4 9 16 28 36
5. Chris Pronger 168 2 3 9 22 16
6. Dan Boyle 116 1 2 5 15 22
7. Shea Weber 96 1 2 6 12 6
8. Zdeno Chara 88 0 3 7 6 14
9. Christian Ehrhoff 21 0 1 0 3 5
10. Mark Streit 15 0 1 1 1 0

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08-07-2010, 11:50 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by HankyFourFingers View Post
?

1. Duncan Keith 1096 76 37 14 2 1
2. Mike Green 831 34 46 23 15 9
3. Drew Doughty 662 15 28 46 25 11
4. Nicklas Lidstrom 303 4 9 16 28 36
5. Chris Pronger 168 2 3 9 22 16
6. Dan Boyle 116 1 2 5 15 22
7. Shea Weber 96 1 2 6 12 6
8. Zdeno Chara 88 0 3 7 6 14
9. Christian Ehrhoff 21 0 1 0 3 5
10. Mark Streit 15 0 1 1 1 0
Where'd you find that? That's not the list I found. Not that I'm disputing it, I was having a tough time finding the list at all.

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Old
08-07-2010, 12:08 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by matt trick View Post
I count Mitchell as four or five in that group, but I am extremely high on Ballard and Ehrhoff, with Edler also being better and Hambuis being debatable (I think he is better). He will get more minutes from San Jose, who also happens to be a contender, though I think Vancouver appears to clearly be a better team (in early August). With San Jose he would also likely get more money, and perhaps, and in my opinion more importantly, a lengthier term. That said, my guess is he stays, but I do think San Jose can offer a contract that would force Mitchell to choose between home and money, because if the money is the same, the Sharks don't stand a chance.
I highly doubt he'll move if the difference is only a few hundred thousand dollars, in the longrun it'll end up costing him to uproot his family and move all the way to San Jose. It's been said before but I firmly believe he'll be staying with Vancouver as long as we send him an offer as he is a BC boy and grew up cheering for the Canucks and up here we have deep connections to our hockey team, we don't have any other sport for a few thousand kilometers!

Unless a team offers him up to 3 - 3.5 mil, he'll sign at home

Some of your guys' potential deals of him taking 1.5 don't make much sense when he can make the same amount at home and everyone will end up getting even playing minutes

Edit:

Also, we're working on patching the last few holes we have left (penalty killing, grit, durability and size) with the additions of Malholtra (sorry) among others and Mitchell just fills our roster out perfectly (at 6'3, 208lbs) with needing to trade Bieksa for a big bottom 6, if you're getting one of our guys, expect Bieksa for key pieces on our bottom 6 that come for cheap, either that or picks/prospects but I believe Gillis will trade to the team who can give us size for him. Gillis works in the way that he'll offer Mitchell most likely a 1.5 - 1.75 mil/1 year bonus laden contract and after that, Mitchell knows that he'll get a big deal upwards of 3 - 4 years

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08-07-2010, 12:16 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Winroba View Post
I highly doubt he'll move if the difference is only a few hundred thousand dollars, in the longrun it'll end up costing him to uproot his family and move all the way to San Jose. It's been said before but I firmly believe he'll be staying with Vancouver as long as we send him an offer as he is a BC boy and grew up cheering for the Canucks and up here we have deep connections to our hockey team, we don't have any other sport for a few thousand kilometers!

Unless a team offers him up to 3 - 3.5 mil, he'll sign at home

Some of your guys' potential deals of him taking 1.5 don't make much sense when he can make the same amount at home and everyone will end up getting even playing minutes

Edit:

Also, we're working on patching the last few holes we have
left (penalty killing, grit, durability and size) with the additions of Malholtra (sorry) among others and Mitchell just fills our roster out perfectly (at 6'3, 208lbs) with needing to trade Bieksa for a big bottom 6, if you're getting one of our guys, expect Bieksa for key pieces on our bottom 6 that come for cheap, either that or picks/prospects but I believe Gillis will trade to the team
who can give us size for him. Gillis works in the way that he'll offer Mitchell most likely a 1.5 - 1.75 mil/1 year bonus laden contract and after that, Mitchell knows that
he'll get a big deal upwards of 3 - 4 years
Seattle is only 230KM away.

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Old
08-07-2010, 12:27 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Rickety Cricket View Post
Seattle is only 230KM away.
The only people who care about the Seahawks are the Green Guys who wear spandex to p!ss everybody off behind the penalty box

Point is, he grew up in Port MacNeill (northern Vancouver Island) where everybody plays hockey and I can guarantee that he wants to be with the Canucks

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08-07-2010, 12:30 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by matt trick View Post
In essence, Vaasa, I just feel you are putting blame on Boyle or the Boyle acquisition for the wrong reasons. Even if we had Carle, Ehrhoff, Vlasic, Murray, Wishart, Petrecki, we'd all be begging for a #1. Maybe the first three have it in them, but I think we'd be looking like Vancouver's D without Hambuis (god knows we can't sign free agents), and while excellent and deep, you still have many Nuck fans who feel that they need a #1, despite having four #2 d-men, to win the cup.
I don't blame Boyle for anything. I blame DW. I've said before I like Boyle the player. I don't like Boyle's contract size, or contract length.

But it does come down in some ways to the quality vs. quantity argument. The first is that I don't see Boyle as such as massive improvement. I don't think he's worth his contract, I don't think he's a true #1 (of which there are VERY few IMO), and I don't think he's so offensively superior that having him is worth not having 2 slightly less offensively skilled players for the same cost.

I believe you don't need a true #1 to win a Cup. That's the point of significant departure between me, you, those Canuck fans, and many other Sharks fans. I do believe you need depth of talent. So naturally, I think Vancouver has made exactly the right play.

For me it comes down to this argument about DW. He consistently trades young, cheap assets who can fill a need, for old, expensive assets who are marginal improvements at best and in many cases are probably worse. Boyle is the #1 representation of that on Defense. Heatley is the representation on Offense. Say what you will about Boyle's contributions to the team, I don't think they are worth $6.66+ mil until he is 39 years old. I think the acquisition of Boyle actually shortened the Sharks "window", makes it less likely that they can build the depth of talent they need, and significantly hurt the teams chances of winning the Cup for as long as he's on the team.

As I said, I don't blame Boyle for any of that. I blame DW. But for me Boyle remains the most glaring of DW's recent stupid decisions because IMO it has had the largest negative impact. No one is going to change my mind on that, and I'm not going to change most (or any) of yours.

/rant off

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08-07-2010, 12:34 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Winroba View Post
The only people who care about the Seahawks are the Green Guys who wear spandex to p!ss everybody off behind the penalty box
I care about hte Seahawks. Not as much as my other teams, but I do care. And I'm not one of the green guys. I don't go to BCIT (IIRC, they were both BCIT students, no?)

Quote:
Point is, he grew up in Port MacNeill (northern Vancouver Island) where everybody plays hockey and I can guarantee that he wants to be with the Canucks
that's a valueless statement. If it were true, probably like half of the league would want to play for Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal.


Vancouver is overloaded with d-men. Even with Salo on the shelf and the potential to dangle Bieksa as trade bait, adding another d-man doesn't make sense to me.

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08-07-2010, 12:35 PM
  #158
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three 2nd liners >>>> Crosby.

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08-07-2010, 12:39 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Winroba View Post
The only people who care about the Seahawks are the Green Guys who wear spandex to p!ss everybody off behind the penalty box

Point is, he grew up in Port MacNeill (northern Vancouver Island) where everybody plays hockey and I can guarantee that he wants to be with the Canucks
Are you saying not many people care about the seahawks?

Is that why they have one of the loudest crowds in the nfl?And every year called the sixth man. Football is a popular sport anywhere in North America. Its a joke that you say the only people that care about the Seahawks are the green guys.

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08-07-2010, 12:41 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by nbbyfan20 View Post
Are you saying not many people care about the seahawks?

Is that why they have one of the loudest crowds in the nfl?And every year called the sixth man. Football is a popular sport anywhere in North America. Its a joke that you say the only people that care about the Seahawks are the green guys.
He's saying people in BC don't care about the seahawks. And on the whole he would probably be right. It's a pretty diverse mix of NFL fandoms here, with maybe only a slight edge to the Seahawks in overall fanbase size.

and I do believe the fans are the "12th man".

6th man is the top bench guy in basketball.

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08-07-2010, 12:52 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Winroba View Post
The only people who care about the Seahawks are the Green Guys who wear spandex to p!ss everybody off behind the penalty box

Point is, he grew up in Port MacNeill (northern Vancouver Island) where everybody plays hockey and I can guarantee that he wants to be with the Canucks


So why did he come out and say he was also interested in 3 other teams?

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08-07-2010, 01:05 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Rickety Cricket View Post
[/B]
So why did he come out and say he was also interested in 3 other teams?
Basic business, if you say you only want to play for one team they can offer you anything, but if you say you're interested in 4 teams it could make the difference of a few million dollars and you end up signing for the team you want and closer to the paycheque you want

That, and if the Canucks don't sign him/can't sign him other teams know that he's available still so they won't fill up all their defensive spots and he still has a backup to go to so that he can play this year

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08-07-2010, 01:10 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
He's saying people in BC don't care about the seahawks. And on the whole he would probably be right. It's a pretty diverse mix of NFL fandoms here, with maybe only a slight edge to the Seahawks in overall fanbase size.

and I do believe the fans are the "12th man".

6th man is the top bench guy in basketball.
I meant 12th man my bad. Got my sports mixed up.

I actually don't know what I was thinking.

And I also think this guy is Willie Mitchells Agent.

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08-07-2010, 01:11 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
I don't blame Boyle for anything. I blame DW. I've said before I like Boyle the player. I don't like Boyle's contract size, or contract length.

But it does come down in some ways to the quality vs. quantity argument. The first is that I don't see Boyle as such as massive improvement. I don't think he's worth his contract, I don't think he's a true #1 (of which there are VERY few IMO), and I don't think he's so offensively superior that having him is worth not having 2 slightly less offensively skilled players for the same cost. What is your definition of "slightly-less skilled"? Huge Matt Carle fan here, but he has ways to go to even tough Boyle offensively. Same with Ehrhoff, who has the skills but still has consistency problems and still hasn't had a good playoff run.

I believe you don't need a true #1 to win a Cup. That's the point of significant departure between me, you, those Canuck fans, and many other Sharks fans. I do believe you need depth of talent. So naturally, I think Vancouver has made exactly the right play. Problem with this is that history is not on your side. Other than the year after the lockout, every single team has had one if not two #1 d-men. To succeed in the playoffs you need superstar talent. Sharks went with the great-depth model for years under Lombardi and it got them nowhere. You are free to believe what you want to believe, but understand the facts are against you.

For me it comes down to this argument about DW. He consistently trades young, cheap assets who can fill a need, for old, expensive assets who are marginal improvements at best and in many cases are probably worse As we have argued before, no, he doesn't. Unless you think Healtey is only marginally better than Michalek...and those assets don't fill a need; that is precisely why he trades them. Under Lombardi SJ horded all its assets until it had a great farm team with tremendous depth with nowhere to play the players....the only three players DW traded that would serve a role on this team right now were Michalek, Carle, and Ehrhoff, the first who was given chance after chance to succeed, failed, and was traded for an upgrade, the second of which was beaten down due to bad coaching and netted SJ a big upgrade, and the third of which was replaced by a veteran player who definitely helped SJ in the short-run (not a trade he should make again, but understandable. . Boyle is the #1 representation of that on Defense. Heatley is the representation on Offense. Say what you will about Boyle's contributions to the team, I don't think they are worth $6.66+ mil until he is 39 years old 37?. I think the acquisition of Boyle actually shortened the Sharks "window", makes it less likely that they can build the depth of talent they need, and significantly hurt the teams chances of winning the Cup for as long as he's on the team.

As I said, I don't blame Boyle for any of that. I blame DW. But for me Boyle remains the most glaring of DW's recent stupid decisions because IMO it has had the largest negative impact. No one is going to change my mind on that, and I'm not going to change most (or any) of yours.

/rant off
I notice how you do things like kind of drum up the play of Ehrhoff or Carle, when if you actually watched them, it was nothing that spectacular, just so it helps your argument better. Carle is the Philly's Beauchemin to Pronger; even I will readily admit that.

Just like before you were arguing how Vlasic has consistently carried the second-pairing, everyone who watched the games knows this is untrue and that Blake helped him majorily on that second-pairing, but since the former fits in with your idea that Blake was a useless pylon, you run with it since it helps your argument.


Last edited by OrrNumber4: 08-09-2010 at 01:55 AM. Reason: spelling
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08-07-2010, 01:36 PM
  #165
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I personally agree that the sharks would have to offer him more than vancouver to get him to move. Not sure what that would be, I'm leaning towards offering an extra year . Might be the best way to get him without putting us against the cap. 3 years 2 million per?

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08-07-2010, 01:51 PM
  #166
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I'd argue Ehrhoff was pretty spectacular with the Sharks and certainly the Canucks, it still amazes me some fans (not you Super) hate on him. He is inconsistent, but damn does he have a nice collection of skills.

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08-07-2010, 02:14 PM
  #167
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MT,
The Boyle disparaging Ehrhoff thing was almost said in jest. However, it is interesting to note where many teams get a #1 PP QB and the #2 is always the butt of complaints. That isn't true for all teams, but it is true for a lot of them . And those #2's switch teams a lot. It is easy to see where coaches or players complain every time #2 does not live up to the standards of #1 and why because of the team or the player himself, the #2 moves on.

One guy left off the top dman lists was Suter. There are a couple of others. I will confirm that the numbers support Boyle being rated as a #4 defensively. He is definitely not top 5. IMO, Pronger, Lidstrom, Keith, Doughty and Weber are definitely ahead of him for top dmen. Chara, Markov and Timonen are close. Markov is nearly identical in all of the numbers.

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08-07-2010, 09:09 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Winroba View Post
Basic business, if you say you only want to play for one team they can offer you anything, but if you say you're interested in 4 teams it could make the difference of a few million dollars and you end up signing for the team you want and closer to the paycheque you want

That, and if the Canucks don't sign him/can't sign him other teams know that he's available still so they won't fill up all their defensive spots and he still has a backup to go to so that he can play this year
The only reason Willie Mitchell went to Vancouver in the first place was because they offered the best contract. He, himself, had already said as much and it had nothing to do with him being from the area. I'm fairly certain the same thing will happen here in the end. He'll go to the highest bidder.

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08-07-2010, 11:12 PM
  #169
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Are you saying not many people care about the seahawks?

Is that why they have one of the loudest crowds in the nfl?And every year called the sixth man. Football is a popular sport anywhere in North America. Its a joke that you say the only people that care about the Seahawks are the green guys.
not sure how the seahawks got brought up in this thread?? but hell ya go hawks

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08-08-2010, 02:23 AM
  #170
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The only reason Willie Mitchell went to Vancouver in the first place was because they offered the best contract. He, himself, had already said as much and it had nothing to do with him being from the area. I'm fairly certain the same thing will happen here in the end. He'll go to the highest bidder.
Nope that's wrong.

Mitchell took a significant pay cut (anywhere from $0.5m to $1.0m per season) to sign with Vancouver.

You can ask anyone on the Canuck board or look it up.

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08-08-2010, 02:32 AM
  #171
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Nope that's wrong.

Mitchell took a significant pay cut (anywhere from $0.5m to $1.0m per season) to sign with Vancouver.

You can ask anyone on the Canuck board or look it up.
lol or I can pull up a Willie Mitchell interview on After Hours where he said that him being offered the best contract by Vancouver is exactly what happened. But who am I going to believe? The player or a bunch of fans on the Canuck board?

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08-08-2010, 02:41 AM
  #172
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From what I have read he took the contract that offered him the most total money, not the contract that offered him the most money per year. I think it was Dallas that offered him a 3year deal at 4mil a year. While van offered him the 4 year 3.5 mil a year. That contract while being as lower cap hit is still two million more.

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08-09-2010, 11:02 AM
  #173
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From what I have read he took the contract that offered him the most total money, not the contract that offered him the most money per year. I think it was Dallas that offered him a 3year deal at 4mil a year. While van offered him the 4 year 3.5 mil a year. That contract while being as lower cap hit is still two million more.
Given his health, that is/was a smart move.

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08-09-2010, 12:23 PM
  #174
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not sure how the seahawks got brought up in this thread?? but hell ya go hawks
I was hoping you would say Go niners.

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08-09-2010, 12:30 PM
  #175
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I was hoping you would say Go niners.
Go forty freaking niners!!! Willis for d-player of the year!

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