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OT: I just spent 6 days In Montreal

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Old
08-06-2010, 01:43 PM
  #201
waffledave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macbeth View Post
Why are you dodging my questions/insinuations, lad ?
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Originally Posted by JoshGorges View Post
Maybe cause Us, Quebecers must be PROUD of our origins, our language, the ancestor who gave her life for our province must be not forgetten. If the law 101 didn't exist, they will be no more French in Montreal in 30 years... Je me souviens...
If the french culture needs laws to keep it alive...If the french culture needs to be forced onto people, then it must be the weakest culture in the world.

These laws do nothing but cause fear to Quebecers. It makes people think that without these laws, they'd lose their language and culture. That simply isn't true. The culture will remain as long as people want it to. Stop falling for the fear mongering by politicians that are not here to protect us, but rather to control us.

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08-06-2010, 01:45 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Like it or not, there is more than one Quebec identity too, especially in Montreal.
The fact is english Montrealers can legally go to school in english. Only immigrants have to go to french schools.

I live in Gatineau which is across the river from Ottawa. I work in service and I serve english people in english. If I didn't, they'd be insulted. What annoys me is that I almost NEVER get served in French in Ottawa. And if I speak french anyways for principle, it becomes awkward. It's as if the "this is canada" mentality works for english, but "this is Quebec speak french" is nazi. It's ridiculous.

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If the french culture needs laws to keep it alive...If the french culture needs to be forced onto people, then it must be the weakest culture in the world.
Come one now, you know that makes no sense. Assimilation is a question of numbers, not "strenght" of culture. English (british) people in Normandy and elsewhere have been assimilated in the past, but you wouldn't say that English culture is weak.

If French is to survive in North America and Quebec in particular, the 101 law is VITAL.


Last edited by McNuts: 08-06-2010 at 01:52 PM.
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08-06-2010, 01:55 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by McNuts View Post
Come one now, you know that makes no sense. Assimilation is a question of numbers, not "strenght" of culture. English (british) people in Normandy and elsewhere have been assimilated in the past, but you wouldn't say that English culture is weak.

If French is to survive in North America and Quebec in particular, the 101 law is VITAL.
Do you think your children will not be able to speak french if the law didn't exist?

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08-06-2010, 02:00 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Not The One View Post
While I'm sure our grand bureaucracy is perfectly capable of messing up the most obvious situations, how many other places actually give you a choice of PUBLIC schools in different languages?

In the US you are FORCED to go to public school in english.
In the UK you are FORCED to go to public school in english.
In France you are FORCED to go to public school in french.
In Spain you are FORCED to go to public school in spanish (excapt Catalonia, see below)
In Germany you are FORCED to go to public school in german.
In Russia you are FORCED to go to public school in russian.
...

I wonder if minorities (if one considers anglophones in North America a minority... I don't) in those countries complain about THEIR human rights.
The fact is that anglophones in Montreal have access to academic instutions that would make minorities in the rest of the world choke with envy.

EDIT

In fact, in Catalonia, which is pretty much in the same situation as Québec, the language of education is Catalan, and spanish is treated as a foreign language. Spanish speakers must go to school in Catalan. No human rights complaints there.
Problem is though these are countries and no matter which way you want to look at it Quebec technically isn't one. As a result, it shouldn't act in a way that it's entitled to have this kind of setup in an English country.

People quickly forget Canada does a lot for Quebec too, they may not let a minority group of Franco Quebecer's pass certain laws etc and I know to a lot of you out there who consider Quebec a Country or believe it should be one, this is unacceptable, and I can't argue with that. But for all the beef, Canada does a lot for Quebec as a province also. In fact billions of dollars are spent annually to keep Quebec a float.

Taking this into consideration that and the fact that Quebec is a province and not a country, just like Franco's have rights in Canada, we should technically have rights in Quebec to attend English schools without any issues or qualms.

If other provinces had huge populations of francophones centralized in one area I would definitely think it's wrong for them not to be provided with a French school. People seem to think Anglo's are huge minority in Montreal and in Quebec and we are a minority, but there are still hundreds of thousands of us all centralized in mostly the same areas, so it makes sense to have English schools here and to allow people to make their own choice about what school their kid goes to.

In 20 years though because fewer and fewer people will meet the requirements to be able to attend these English schools, they won't exist. Several English elementary schools in the west island over the past 10 years have closes their doors. High schools are probably next in the next 10-20 years. The laws do nothing but make it more difficult for non-franco's to immigrate here, continue living here etc. I understand that is the entire point probably but the point is flawed in that there aren't and will not be enough Francophone people alone to soley run this province. As other people have said, the birth rates are getting lower and lower. We need immigration, we need to keep the people we have. We aren't in a position to play hard ball in other words. If we were I could understand it, but we simply aren't so why bother with these laws?

To be honest it's just insulting to anglophone's, all it does is show insecurity in ones culture, and it pushes people away. Granted they can get tons of immigrants from French countries like Haiti but I don't think this will just fix the situation.

I'm all for French people in Canada (not just Quebec) having equal rights. Heck I'm all for a completely bilingual country even (whether it's separation or Canada forcing public schools to take french more seriously and make it an active second language in all provinces) but frankly I just don't want my rights to be stomped all over in the process. I didn't do anything to justify not being able to say my kid can go to the school I want him to go to and in general I just want what's best for Quebec and our Country and I just don't feel these laws are whats best. Separation might be what's best for Quebec I won't even debate that because there are so many sides to the equation, but I just don't feel these laws are right. They don't accomplish what the government wants it to accomplish, it isn't forcing people to learn French, most people would rather just leave in a couple years or take a transfer to a job elsewhere.

And this is what I see time and time again with people who do get transferred here due to job placement etc. They get in, they get out.

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Old
08-06-2010, 02:03 PM
  #205
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In english public school's when student's graduate they have an above average understanding/speaking of french.
The problem is that it doesn't work the other way around, when student's from french school's graduate they have a below average understanding/speaking english. Most of them can't even put a sentance together in english (now i'm not saying all students are like this).

IMO bill 101 hurts Quebec more than it helps it, since like I said all students in english schools will learn and be able to communicate in french. Also i know a lot of people who are french and would like to send their kids to english schools but can't because of this law

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08-06-2010, 02:03 PM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Do you think your children will not be able to speak french if the law didn't exist?
Over generations, the French proportion in Quebec would diminish more rapidly than it is now until it became a minority. French communities have disappeared in North America before (Louisiana, Maritimes, Manitoba, Ontario). Scotland used to be Gaelic, now Gaelic is a minority language. There are examples of assimilation all over the world.

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Originally Posted by scottyG View Post
Also i know a lot of people who are french and would like to send their kids to english schools but can't because of this law
Yes, you know A LOT. I believe you.

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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Problem is though these are countries and no matter which way you want to look at it Quebec technically isn't one. As a result, it shouldn't act in a way that it's entitled to have this kind of setup in an English country.
Canada is an english country? This is EXACTLY the kind of attitude that justifies separation. You're just feeding separatism with this kind of discourse.

Quote:
Canada does a lot for Quebec as a province also. In fact billions of dollars are spent annually to keep Quebec a float.
Billions of dollars are spent in all provinces. The automobile industry of Ontario receives huge subsidies, so does the oil industries of the west.


Last edited by McNuts: 08-06-2010 at 02:11 PM.
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Old
08-06-2010, 02:04 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Don't get me wrong, I've had an issue with some of the stuff he's said in the past too and I agree those comments can be offensive.

But at least that aside he's bringing some constructiveness to the table albeit along with some of that banter.

He's made a few pretty good points, it's too bad he has to resort to that type of stuff in order to get them across though, because half of his points are actually fairly good ones.
I understand but the extremist he seems to describe are only a few % of the movement, like there is in every movement... It's not what people are talking about here... let's not generalize

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08-06-2010, 02:07 PM
  #208
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I know this might not be directly related to the subject at hand, but it's something I often think about and, seeing as for once we can have a civilized debate, I would like to get your opinion on this : the influence of the language on the person.

I am one to believe that a language has a large effect on a person's thinking. I first started thinking about this when I first started to be fluent in english (my mother tongue is french). At first, when speaking english I would "think in french", then translate to english then speak. As I became fluent in english, I started thinking in english when speaking english and have found that I don't act the same way or think the same way. It is as if the language predisposes me to think a certain way (maybe the existing vocabulary/expressions of the language causes that).

When comparing German and Spanish, both languages are extremely different and so are the people from each country. Sure the culture has to be taken into account, but doesn't language influence the culture? Another example, french-canadian vs french from France. The language is somewhat different and so are the people. Anyway, your thoughts?

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08-06-2010, 02:08 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Like it or not, there is more than one Quebec identity too, especially in Montreal.

The city has had a large english speaking character for 250 years, a period covering most of its development from a fur trading outpost into a metropolis. English speakers have just as much claim on ancestral Quebec (especially Montreal) legacy as the French, bullying people with a democratic majority, restrictive laws, and french nationalist pretentions do not change these historical facts.
Yeah and if you want to get right down to it, this land belongs to the natives not the English or French. They were taken in wars, when you lose a war this is what happens. Not trying to be mean but English Canada clearly won the war. There shouldn't be a sense of entitlement really because in all honesty the natives should be a little more entitled then any Anglo or Franco person in Canada. It was their land not ours. So nobody here should act or feel entitled to any land, culture etc. Technically all the French/English came from Europe and conquered this land.

In a modern day they would be spanked if they tried to do this

Just like the French shouldn't feel entitled to have their culture/land here over the English, the English shouldn't feel entitled about the natives land. Really neither of us really have a right to complain about our cultures living or dieing out because quite frankly they shouldn't have existed here in the first place. We stole land that did not belong to us. (not us but in the past our people did).

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08-06-2010, 02:08 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by JoshGorges View Post
Maybe cause Us, Quebecers must be PROUD of our origins, our language, the ancestor who gave her life for our province must be not forgetten. If the law 101 didn't exist, they will be no more French in Montreal in 30 years... Je me souviens...
So all this hatred yet you are on an english sponsored hockey board! I remember !

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Old
08-06-2010, 02:10 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by scottyG View Post
In english public school's when student's graduate they have an above average understanding/speaking of french.
The problem is that it doesn't work the other way around, when student's from french school's graduate they have a below average understanding/speaking english. Most of them can't even put a sentance together in english (now i'm not saying all students are like this).
That's just because french is more predominent in Quebec than english. The number one motivation for learning a language is to communicate with your peers, so in Quebec (in general), most of your peers are going to speak french.

It's not different than the fact that french-quebecer speaks english in a larger proportion than english-canadians speaks french. English canadians don't have any pressure to learn french. The situation is different for quebecers who want to deal and trade with the rest of North America.

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Old
08-06-2010, 02:14 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by McNuts View Post
The fact is english Montrealers can legally go to school in english. Only immigrants have to go to french schools.

I live in Gatineau which is across the river from Ottawa. I work in service and I serve english people in english. If I didn't, they'd be insulted. What annoys me is that I almost NEVER get served in French in Ottawa. And if I speak french anyways for principle, it becomes awkward. It's as if the "this is canada" mentality works for english, but "this is Quebec speak french" is nazi. It's ridiculous.



Come one now, you know that makes no sense. Assimilation is a question of numbers, not "strenght" of culture. English (british) people in Normandy and elsewhere have been assimilated in the past, but you wouldn't say that English culture is weak.

If French is to survive in North America and Quebec in particular, the 101 law is VITAL.
I do agree the double standard exists and it's stupid.

At the same time though there are almost 1 million anglo's centralized in specific areas of Quebec, versus how many franco's in Ontario centralized in Ottawa?

We aren't comparing apples to apples, while the double standard is true at the same time it's like asking a Chinese person why they don't speak french in China versus the situation at hand. It's such a smaller population of French speakers in most of the rest of Canada than it is English people in Quebec or at minimum Montreal. I can't speak for all of Quebec but at least in Montreal's case it's a good portion of the population.

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08-06-2010, 02:15 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by PunkinDrublic View Post
So all this hatred yet you are on an english sponsored hockey board! I remember !
What hatred? I didn't see any. Please stop trolling.

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Old
08-06-2010, 02:17 PM
  #214
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If you want to talk politics there's a political sub-forum for that. The main boards and team boards are not for political discussion.

thanks.

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