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Old
08-05-2010, 12:42 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
For regular season, they count. Montréal is in no shape, or form built to beat Philadelphia in the playoffs. A team game series, Montréal could win, especially in the season. Playoffs, HAH. Fat chance.
Moot point. Maybe, maybe not. You think he would help Gomez who mouthed off at Pronger on his way off the ice? I do not.

By the way both Spacek and Kostitsyn played against Flyers in back to back games during regular season. So really, you have zero argument. So, once again, biggest loss was Andrei Markov.

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08-05-2010, 12:44 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Moot point. Maybe, maybe not. You think he would help Gomez who mouthed off at Pronger on his way off the ice? I do not.

By the way both Spacek and Kostitsyn played against Flyers in back to back games during regular season. So, once against, biggest loss was Andrei Markov.
Pouliot had 13 goals in 18 games up that point when we played the Flyers back to back. It was also during Andrei's hot streak when he put 20 points in 18 games so don't act like it was a nothing loss

And no Andrei didn't play in the back to back games against the Flyers.

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08-05-2010, 12:46 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Pouliot had 13 goals in 18 games up that point when we played the Flyers back to back. It was also during Andrei's hot streak when he put 20 points in 18 games so don't act like it was a nothing loss
So what? Both were on the ice agianst the Flyers? I do not care how many points they scored previously.

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08-05-2010, 12:49 PM
  #104
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Montreal's roster those back to back flyers games

M. D'Agostini
M. Darche
D. Desharnais
H. Gill
B. Gionta
S. Gomez
J. Gorges
R. Hamrlik
S. Kostitsyn
M. Lapierre
G. Metropolit
T. Moen
D. Moore
R. O'Byrne
T. Plekanec
T. Pyatt
J. Spacek
P.K. Subban


No Cammalleri, Markov, Andrei, Pouliot.

I wonder how good Flyers would have played those back to back games if Pronger, Gagner, Hartnell and Giroux would have been out.

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08-05-2010, 12:53 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
So what? Both were on the ice agianst the Flyers? I do not care how many points they scored previously.
So what?

Quote:
The Habs were 3-3 against the Leafs last season. Why would such a highly skilled far superior team have a 500 record against a team of no-talent thugs? Also, I guess everyone conveniently has has forgotten about the back to back sweep against the Flyers in February where the Flyesr physically dominated and intimidated the Habs on the Friday night. On Saturday night, OB tried to step up against Laperriere and got flattened with one punch delating the Habs and losing yet again.
I guess he convientally forgot that Markov, Andrei, Pouliot and Cammalleri didn't play those back to back games.

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08-05-2010, 01:09 PM
  #106
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Of the Astonishing leadership depth of the 2011-2012 team

What I like (as side from big butts and I cannot lie ) for this upcoming season is that all our vets (and by that I mean either old guys or players who really deserve to be named vets because of their exemplary conduct : i.e. Josh Gorges) are exemplary.
I mean and as much as I liked them, no Ryder, no Bergeron, no Drunken-Higgins.

What was astonishing last season, despite the "no captain" thing, was the number of A's and potential A's on this team.

Gill, Markov, Camm, Gomez, Gorges, Gio all wore it. Hamrlik could have had it. At some point, if we had less candidates, I wouldn't be shy to give it to Moen.
Those guys are all players you could see on a cup winner.
No Berezin or Czerkawski. Or Yannick Perrault (as much as I liked him)

The rest of the team is composed of young, up and comers who have yet to prove themselves.
HOWEVER, they have something to lookup for, they have not only one saku koivu leader-example, and if you don't like him, you go have a shot of Jack Daniels with Higgins... they have more than half a dozen of exemplary hockey citizens to rely on, to try to emulate.
I mean, when was the last time (with all due respect to Saku Koivu and as much as I liked him) that one of our leaders brought one of the rookies golfing with him? (Note : Cammalleri did it this summer with Subban, before that, it must have been guys like Serge Savard or Bob Gainey)

I mean, I liked Moore, but who tells ya that a Boyd who's way younger cannot do the same job for longer, with maybe more enthusiasm and potential for growth.

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08-05-2010, 01:14 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
I wonder how good Flyers would have played those back to back games if Pronger, Gagner, Hartnell and Giroux would have been out.
You wonder? With exception of Markov who is indeed a big loss most of your rosters players were on the ice in playoffs against Philadelphia.

Most players were on the ice in your last regular season game gainst Philadelphia where Halak saved your butts. You did not belong in that game.

No need to wonder.

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08-05-2010, 01:17 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
You wonder? With exception of Markov who is indeed a big loss most of your rosters players were on the ice in playoffs against Philadelphia.

Most players were on the ice in your last regular season game gainst Philadelphia where Halak saved your butts. You did not belong in that game.

No need to wonder.
We are clearly not talking about the same thing. I'll let you re-read what I was actually responding to.

As for toughness being the problem against the Flyers, it's not players like Asham and Carillo as to why we lost, it's because the Flyers have three scoring lines and one of the best built Ds in the nhl. Couple that with Laviolette's aggresive style, many teams would have difficulty beating the Flyers which is why they were so successful.

It's not because we don't have Shelley, Boogaard, Eager why we lost, it's because the Flyers depth is just that good.

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08-05-2010, 01:24 PM
  #109
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Shelley wont play in playoffs. Carcillo and Asham are not just goons, they actually contribute. I am sure Hawks were happy with Eager and how he played .

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08-05-2010, 01:29 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Shelley wont play in playoffs. Carcillo and Asham are not just goons, they actually contribute. I am sure Hawks were happy with Eager and how he played .
I'm sure as well. How many times was Carcillo scatched btw?

The Flyers are just extremely deep. To say Montreal lost because they lacked toughness is a rtidiculously shallow assessment as to why the habs lost. The habs depth couldn't match the Flyers, no team's depth could have. Boston got close to eliminating the Flyers because their depth matched the Flyers. But when Boston's depth took a hit with the injuries to Krejci and Sturm, it wasn't the same series. Also Flyers had their own injuries as well.

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08-05-2010, 01:34 PM
  #111
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For every posters on here that feels NHL players are not scared when it comes to fighting like I have stated Moen and O'Byrne must be scared to death knowing no one is there to help them fight the top goons in the nhl. I played in the OHL and I played Pro hockey I was alot like Travis Moen able to fight but not a true heavy weight I recall in an OHL pre season game against the Ottawa 67's and a guy by the name of Chris Simon was going around running players left and right if I recall the straw that broken the camel back was when he ran a 16 year old guy by the name of Paul Trainor(sp)? the coach at the time was pissed off because we had no one in the line up that would scare Simon let alone beat him. I was only 17 or 18 at the time and I knew I had to go out and fight a guy that was older,stronger,bigger and a better fighter than me. So don't tell me guys aren't scared because that is ******** I didn't want to get beat up for the team but I had to do something and believe me I didn't do much but eat a few punches to the face. I tried because it is in me to try and that is why Moen and O'Byrne will try but to this day it pisses me off that the coach didn't have someone in the line up to prevent this from happening.

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08-05-2010, 01:35 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
I'm sure as well. How many times was Carcillo scatched btw?

The Flyers are just extremely deep. To say Montreal lost because they lacked toughness is a rtidiculously shallow assessment as to why the habs lost. The habs depth couldn't match the Flyers, no team's depth could have. Boston got close to eliminating the Flyers because their depth matched the Flyers. But when Boston's depth took a hit with the injuries to Krejci and Sturm, it wasn't the same series. Also Flyers had their own injuries as well.
They had some injuries who came back.

Don't make the Flyers sound invincible.

Montreal lost the MVP, Markov. Things would be a lot different if the Flyers lost their MVP (Pronger) while Montreal still had Markov.

Also the goaltending duel took an interesting twist with Halak being outplayed by Leighton (who posted 3 shutouts!). Some will say it's just Montreal taking soft shots, but Leighton went back to letting in softies vs. the Hawks where he was terrible again.

Reverse a MVP injury and the goaltending and Montreal wins.

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08-05-2010, 01:41 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
I'm sure as well. How many times was Carcillo scatched btw?
Carcillo was scratched in finals, it was betwen him and PK specialist Powe. Asham was never scratched.

Carcillo was not useless. Scored a very ice OT goal, delivered some hits, did not take bad penalties, made some nice passes that resulted goales in 1st round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
They had some injuries who came back.

Don't make the Flyers sound invincible.

Montreal lost the MVP, Markov. Things would be a lot different if the Flyers lost their MVP (Pronger) while Montreal still had Markov.

Also the goaltending duel took an interesting twist with Halak being outplayed by Leighton (who posted 3 shutouts!). Some will say it's just Montreal taking soft shots, but Leighton went back to letting in softies vs. the Hawks where he was terrible again.

Reverse a MVP injury and the goaltending and Montreal wins.
Leighton posted 3 SO because Habs forwards could not penetrate Flyers D.
Flyers beat Habs with out Pronger with Markov in 08. Same amount of games.


Last edited by Kaktus*: 08-05-2010 at 01:47 PM.
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08-05-2010, 01:44 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by habsroom View Post
For every posters on here that feels NHL players are not scared when it comes to fighting like I have stated Moen and O'Byrne must be scared to death knowing no one is there to help them fight the top goons in the nhl.

Ryan O'Byrne is 6'6 and 230 lbs.

He has shown he is not afraid to fight, and looked pretty mean doing it a few times last season, I remember him kicking someone's ass pretty bad. He's not a *****cat.

He is also struggling to keep a spot on the roster.

If he wants to make himself more useful to the coach and get more starts , a good career move for him would be to go out and take some boxing lessons so the coach will be more inclined to play him when there might be trouble, knowing O'Byrne will be around to kick most people's *****.

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08-05-2010, 01:47 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Ryan O'Byrne is 6'6 and 230 lbs.

He has shown he is not afraid to fight, and looked pretty mean doing it a few times last season, I remember him kicking someone's ass pretty bad. He's not a *****cat.

He is also struggling to keep a spot on the roster.

If he wants to make himself more useful to the coach and get more starts , a good career move for him would be to go out and take some boxing lessons so the coach will be more inclined to play him when there might be trouble, knowing O'Byrne will be around to kick most people's *****.
I like O'Byrne and Moen but there isn't 1 nhl tough guy they could beat. they wouldn't be in the top 40 fighters in the NHL not even close. Yes he is very afraid trust me. Do you think he liked getting punched out against the Flyers and seeing everyone lol at him?

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08-05-2010, 01:48 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Carcillo was scratched in finals, it was betwen him and PK specialist Powe. Asham was never scratched.

Carcillo was not useless. Scored a very ice OT goal, delivered some hits, did not take bad penalties, made some nice passes that resulted goales in 1st round.


Leighton posted 3 SO because Habs forwards could not penetrate Flyers D.
Flyers beat Habs with out Pronger with Markov in 08. Same amount of games.
You do realize that from the 07-08 team there were only 6 players from that roster in 09-10 playoffs right? Moot point.

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08-05-2010, 02:09 PM
  #117
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You do realize that from the 07-08 team there were only 6 players from that roster in 09-10 playoffs right? Moot point.
Agreed but the resutl is the same not to mention similar type of players on both sides.

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08-05-2010, 02:48 PM
  #118
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goons are useless unless they can play at least 10 minutes of hockey and contribute.

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08-05-2010, 02:52 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Carcillo was scratched in finals, it was betwen him and PK specialist Powe. Asham was never scratched.

Carcillo was not useless. Scored a very ice OT goal, delivered some hits, did not take bad penalties, made some nice passes that resulted goales in 1st round.


Leighton posted 3 SO because Habs forwards could not penetrate Flyers D.
Flyers beat Habs with out Pronger with Markov in 08. Same amount of games.
pronger played 30 minutes a game, the habs would have beat philly without him in the lineup. markov is just as valuable to us as pronger is to you guys.

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08-05-2010, 03:48 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsroom View Post
For every posters on here that feels NHL players are not scared when it comes to fighting like I have stated Moen and O'Byrne must be scared to death knowing no one is there to help them fight the top goons in the nhl. I played in the OHL and I played Pro hockey I was alot like Travis Moen able to fight but not a true heavy weight I recall in an OHL pre season game against the Ottawa 67's and a guy by the name of Chris Simon was going around running players left and right if I recall the straw that broken the camel back was when he ran a 16 year old guy by the name of Paul Trainor(sp)? the coach at the time was pissed off because we had no one in the line up that would scare Simon let alone beat him. I was only 17 or 18 at the time and I knew I had to go out and fight a guy that was older,stronger,bigger and a better fighter than me. So don't tell me guys aren't scared because that is ******** I didn't want to get beat up for the team but I had to do something and believe me I didn't do much but eat a few punches to the face. I tried because it is in me to try and that is why Moen and O'Byrne will try but to this day it pisses me off that the coach didn't have someone in the line up to prevent this from happening.
I had to fight a stronger guy than me in the OHL, back in the days with that old rule book, and I was scared. Since I am scared and it affects MY gameplay and emotionnal stability as a player, a goon would be necessary to help me cope with MY situation. Therefore, goons are necessary in the NHL. Subjective biasis...

In your situation yes, but how in the hell can you say YOUR situation is NECESSARLY true for NHL players in 2010?

Btw, Beliveau's times and 2010 are so wrong to be compared... please. The rulebook, mentalities, game speed, rosters, political reality, coaching, playing styles, were all so different. These times, your times, and today's times are different times. Please use common sense. I would have agreed with you 10-15 years ago. Now? No. We need stronger players.

And for your Leafs' 3-3 record reference, look at the whole picture, not only last year where our team was new, injured and not yet meshed together (see PO vs Season's results).

And as I said, we lost to a team who played better as a team. I clearly remmeber Phi's defensive coverage and the pain we had getting quality shots of it. I assume Boston lost to Phi because they were not tough enough? No. They lost because Phi, in the end, played better hockey as a team. Toughness is part of the game, but it is not the only edge that will make you win (See past years Leafs).

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08-05-2010, 04:09 PM
  #121
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Some points:

1. I just want to mention that Pens and Caps are not exactly tough teams either. So essentially Mtl was eliminated from play-offs as soon as they faced really tough team.

2. Leafs did not have tough guys until last year. Schenn was forced to fight more than he really should. Team was often intimidated (see Kaberle concussion).

3. I think Gill in particular was good signing. He has that calm strength that helps mitigate that team dont have goon.

I cannot really predict if this lack of toughness will hamper Mtl this season, but it might. It should be noted that some teams like Atlanta and Tampa added a lot of skill and toughness, so East is getting stronger.

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08-06-2010, 05:53 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Did you also mention that we had no Markov, Spacek Andrei Kostitsyn and Pouliot for those games.
No I didn't because other than Markov I don't see the big deal. Plus, none of the players you mentioned could/would have done anything to stop that physical beatdown

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08-06-2010, 05:56 AM
  #123
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Nice to see the Oilers resign Steve Mac to look out for Hall and the rest of the kids in Edmonton.Not so nice to see the Habs do zip to protect Subban and Eller.Every man for himself lads,duck and cover.
I swear to god if I have to watch Chris Neal laugh at our entire team another year im going to puke.
Would not want to be in O'B or Moens skates this year.
If you think intimidation doesnt play a part anymore in the NHL your wrong.Lapierre vs.O'B during the back to back vs. Philly.The entire Flyer bench was laughing it up after the 'fight".Habs bench was pretending they were allready in the showers.Pathetic.
Excellent post.

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08-06-2010, 08:35 AM
  #124
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pronger played 30 minutes a game, the habs would have beat philly without him in the lineup. markov is just as valuable to us as pronger is to you guys.
Score would be closer result would still be the same.
Against Habs Pronger averaged 26min a game.

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08-06-2010, 09:11 AM
  #125
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I'll echo a lot of posts I read in this thread, pure goons are useless imo. Guys that can play hockey with an edge are who we should go after when we have the chance.

I'm still surprised Asham is available...obviously these GM's don't watch much playoff hockey because this guy was valuable imo.

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