HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Vaananen/Morris trade...looking back

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-25-2004, 02:37 PM
  #1
Captain Conservative
Registered User
 
Captain Conservative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: My Blue Heaven
Country: Spain
Posts: 3,847
vCash: 500
Vaananen/Morris trade...looking back

Phoenix gets:
____________

Chris Gratton
Ossi Vaananen
2nd rd pick in '05
1 billion dollars(US)

Colorado gets:
____________
Derek Morris
Keith Ballard



What do you think?

Captain Conservative is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 02:40 PM
  #2
RoyIsALegend*
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,815
vCash: 500
Are you tripping out?

RoyIsALegend* is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 02:45 PM
  #3
IslesJack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: NY
Posts: 401
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to IslesJack Send a message via AIM to IslesJack
huh?

What the hell was the point of this thread?

IslesJack is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 02:48 PM
  #4
Captain Conservative
Registered User
 
Captain Conservative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: My Blue Heaven
Country: Spain
Posts: 3,847
vCash: 500
Just *****ing about Pierre Lacroix. I thought it would be evident.

Captain Conservative is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 03:24 PM
  #5
Mizral
Registered User
 
Mizral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Earth, MW
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,173
vCash: 500
Pierre Lacroix - great guy at the draft table, and isn't afraid to pull the trigger, and awesome at resigning guys. All around great GM..

Except the guy has a penchant for making bad moves more than most good GM's. This isn't a hugely bad thing, since he's so good elsewhere. But Lacroix has let go a lot of very serviceable players for not a heck of a lot over the years. This is just another case. Morris had one (count 'em, one) bad year and all of a sudden he's worth Chris Gratton? Okay, and Vaananen with Ballard, but still, that is absolutely brutal. Morris could win a Norris one day for christs sakes. Not a great trade, Pierre - and as the playoffs played out, it verified it.

Just looking at the remaining teams, look at all the former Avs:

Flames: Yelle, Donovan, Simon, Regehr, Reinprecht (IR), McAmmond (IR)
Bolts: Andreychuk, Pratt, Dingman

Not all are great players, but just goes to show you that Pierre does tend to give up some pretty valuable players. Not saying all his deals suck (some of them are great!), just that he usually gives up about as much as he gets, sometimes gives up a lot more...

Mizral is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 03:24 PM
  #6
bleedgreen
Moderator
 
bleedgreen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: colorado
Posts: 10,979
vCash: 500
i thought it was pl's worst trade. i was fine with trading drury - morris seemd like a logical building block. to trade him AND their best d prospect (especially when they are so short on prospects) was brutal. i usaully side with pl - but not on that one. ive never thought much at all of gratton, vaananen is fine - but not for the 2 they gave up. i hope morris prospers in phx.

bleedgreen is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 03:38 PM
  #7
RoyIsALegend*
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,815
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen
i thought it was pl's worst trade. i was fine with trading drury - morris seemd like a logical building block. to trade him AND their best d prospect (especially when they are so short on prospects) was brutal. i usaully side with pl - but not on that one. ive never thought much at all of gratton, vaananen is fine - but not for the 2 they gave up. i hope morris prospers in phx.
Ossi Vaananen is fine?

He fits this club immensely better than Derek Morris did and is leaps and bounds better both defensively and physically.

Let's not forget the 2nd rounder the Avalanche picked up in next season's draft that Pierre Lacroix will most likely peddle in another move or use it to fill a hole on the team.

RoyIsALegend* is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 03:41 PM
  #8
Drake1588
UNATCO
 
Drake1588's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 27,928
vCash: 500
Honestly, when I heard about this one, I just shook my head. I am a huge fan of Ossi Vaananen and have been for a long time, but Morris is simply the better player in an off year, while Gratton for Ballard was mind-numbingly in favor of Phoenix. It may not look so bad yet, but Morris is going to be playing at a high level for a long time, and Ballard stands a good chance of developing into a solid #3 defenseman. Just not a great trade from Lacroix. It didn't make them better in the short term, and they are going to lose in the long term. Gratton should not be blinding GMs with his "potential" any longer.

Drake1588 is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 03:48 PM
  #9
bleedgreen
Moderator
 
bleedgreen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: colorado
Posts: 10,979
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
Ossi Vaananen is fine?

He fits this club immensely better than Derek Morris did and is leaps and bounds better both defensively and physically.

Let's not forget the 2nd rounder the Avalanche picked up in next season's draft that Pierre Lacroix will most likely peddle in another move or use it to fill a hole on the team.
yes, fine. i live here in denver and saw all the games. morris fit in great - he is the best d they had outside of blake. he had a tough year - but who doesnt? morris hasnt been the same since he got his head cracked. i wonder if the team insisted that he go easy with fighting or if he really has changed. he was plenty physical when he got here - in fact i thought he was our toughest guy after foote. truth is, in 2 years foote and blake are done - and what would you rather have then, vaananen or morris and ballard? to me its no contest. ossi makes a great 4th guy - but morris and ballard are anywhere from 1-3 guys(if ballard pans out - he gets compared to leopold). we will regret them not being there in a year or two - maybe even next season. the 2nd rounder doesnt do a lot for them now - and they would be FAR better off actually using it to actually draft a propsect instead of trading it. it would only fetch another veteran anyway - not a quality young player that they will so desperately need.

bleedgreen is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 03:56 PM
  #10
RoyIsALegend*
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,815
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen
yes, fine. i live here in denver and saw all the games. morris fit in great - he is the best d they had outside of blake. he had a tough year - but who doesnt? morris hasnt been the same since he got his head cracked. i wonder if the team insisted that he go easy with fighting or if he really has changed. he was plenty physical when he got here - in fact i thought he was our toughest guy after foote. truth is, in 2 years foote and blake are done - and what would you rather have then, vaananen or morris and ballard? to me its no contest. ossi makes a great 4th guy - but morris and ballard are anywhere from 1-3 guys(if ballard pans out - he gets compared to leopold). we will regret them not being there in a year or two - maybe even next season. the 2nd rounder doesnt do a lot for them now - and they would be FAR better off actually using it to actually draft a propsect instead of trading it. it would only fetch another veteran anyway - not a quality young player that they will so desperately need.
Please tell me how Rob Blake and Adam Foote are 'done' in 2 years.

Please.

And if you think Derek Morris was our best defenseman behind Rob Blake, you need to pay more attention to hockey. Blake, Adam Foote and Karlis Skrastins all exceeded Morris this season, and John-Michael Liles' offense was superior to Morris' in every facet.

RoyIsALegend* is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 04:36 PM
  #11
bleedgreen
Moderator
 
bleedgreen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: colorado
Posts: 10,979
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
Please tell me how Rob Blake and Adam Foote are 'done' in 2 years.

Please.

And if you think Derek Morris was our best defenseman behind Rob Blake, you need to pay more attention to hockey. Blake, Adam Foote and Karlis Skrastins all exceeded Morris this season, and John-Michael Liles' offense was superior to Morris' in every facet.
in two years - the will both be in their middle 30's, they both have battered knees and are generally breaking down. blake helps himself up using the boards or his stick every time he gets up. i would be shocked if they were both playing in colorado in the same roles in 2 years. i think at least one of them will be retired. are skrastins and 5 10 liles leading the charge? i dont think so. i think liles is awesome, but in the supporting role that he is in - not as a front line guy every night. he has a couple of years of playing at that level to prove that. a core of d of skrastins, liles, vaananen and sauer might not be the worst - but it is far from the best. you make my point exactly, those guys played better than morris THIS YEAR. i dont judge a guy on one year. i also thought when blake went down earlier in the year morris handled the responsibility with some of his best play. without blake ion front of him, i think he will become an outstanding top dman. i pay plenty of attention to hockey - its pretty much in every facet of my life. i think avs fans had it in for morris ever since the trade - its unfortunate, in the long term he would have done more for the team than drury could have.


Last edited by bleedgreen: 05-25-2004 at 04:49 PM.
bleedgreen is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 05:15 PM
  #12
Lobstertainment
Oh no, my brains.
 
Lobstertainment's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,565
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Lobstertainment
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Conservative
Phoenix gets:
____________

Chris Gratton
Ossi Vaananen
2nd rd pick in '05
1 billion dollars(US)

Colorado gets:
____________
Derek Morris
Keith Ballard



What do you think?
WTF!?!?!?!?!?!?

Lobstertainment is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 05:26 PM
  #13
Russian_fanatic
Registered User
 
Russian_fanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,638
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Conservative
Phoenix gets:
____________

Chris Gratton
Ossi Vaananen
2nd rd pick in '05
1 billion dollars(US)

Colorado gets:
____________
Derek Morris
Keith Ballard



What do you think?
Awfull trade !!! I wouldnt give up 1 billion for NO ONE !!!

Russian_fanatic is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 05:44 PM
  #14
Burnaby_Joe*
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,271
vCash: 500
Derek Morris is overrated. I'd rather have Vaananen over him any day. Lacroix has done some dumb moves, but he has done some good ones too. He isn't afraid to pull the trigger and that's why I like the guy.

Burnaby_Joe* is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 06:12 PM
  #15
Foppa
Registered User
 
Foppa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Kansas City, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 3,490
vCash: 500
Well, gladly we waited to see how this deal works in the long-term before 're-evaluating it'.

I see it no differently now (a whopping 3 months later) than the day it happened.

Morris for Vaananen + a 2nd was fine. I have always loved Ossi and while Morris certainly has better two-way upside, Vaananen's size, defensive ability and mean streak from the backend is a better fit in the Avs defense the way it is currently constructed. Vaananen's also a couple years younger and will be one of the premier shutdown defensemen in the league for a long time. Morris will give the Coyotes a stunning top 3 to go into the future with along with Mara and Tanabe.

Both Vaananen and Morris are not without holes in their game. Morris needs to learn to get his shot on net and needs to up his intensity to get back on the path to stardom. There is no doubt he has been less aggressive since the Ling incident and he needs to be aggressive to be a top flight defenseman. Vaananen lacks the recovery speed right now to play much of a transition game. His lack of speed isn't much of a dilemma in the defensive zone, where his tremendous positioning, size and long reach can neutralize just about anyone. But it means he does not present much of a threat offensively and makes him still one-dimensional at this point, even if the one dimension is very, very good.

Then we arrive at Ballard for Gratton. Okay, PL got jobbed. End of story. Gratton fool's gold strikes again. I don't have anything against Gratton. He's a good third line center who's versatile and wins face-offs and (too a lesser degree) I seem him becoming much more of a complete player as he ages and as the hype and offensive expectations continue to decline ala Keith Primeau. But Ballard is a great prospect who has a very good chance of becoming an impact defenseman in the NHL. That part of the deal was a kick in the nuts for me.

Foote and Blake will be contributing for many more years. Vaananen and Liles are a great young pair. Boychuk has potential. Skrastins is solid if unspectacular. Slovak has talent but disappointed in a big way this year. Kalteva and Viitanen might or might not have NHL futures. Dealing away Ballard, Gilbert, and Liffiton at the deadline certainly put a dent in the one 'strength' of the Avs farm system and it won't be for many seasons down the road before we can really tear down or build up PL's latest deadline frenzy. But the failure to win the Cup certainly means it can't be considered an out-and-out success.

Foppa is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 07:06 PM
  #16
Yayo
 
Yayo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,938
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen
in two years - the will both be in their middle 30's, they both have battered knees and are generally breaking down.
Apparently Scott Stevens has been "breaking down" since he was in his early 30's.

Yayo is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 07:08 PM
  #17
YotesFan
Registered User
 
YotesFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: North Phoenix
Country: United States
Posts: 2,403
vCash: 500
We made out like bandits.

YotesFan is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 07:11 PM
  #18
Burnaby_Joe*
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,271
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YotesFan
We made out like bandits.

We got a 2nd round pick in the deal. We all know how the Avs draft.

Burnaby_Joe* is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 11:04 PM
  #19
Motown Beatdown
Need a slump buster
 
Motown Beatdown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Indianapolis
Country: United States
Posts: 8,566
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian_fanatic
Awfull trade !!! I wouldnt give up 1 billion for NO ONE !!!

Would you trade a get out of jail free card for a Billion dollars?

Motown Beatdown is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 11:37 PM
  #20
MeisterBruinmaker
Registered User
 
MeisterBruinmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bay area, California
Posts: 6,893
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to MeisterBruinmaker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Conservative
Just *****ing about Pierre Lacroix. I thought it would be evident.
Not sure what you're complaining about...the Lanche have won a few cups and been one of the best teams in the league year in and year out since 1996.

No GM is gonna be perfect. None. At least PL has given his team as good a chance as any for nearly a freekin decade. Most fans would die for that...

MeisterBruinmaker is offline  
Old
05-25-2004, 11:48 PM
  #21
littleHossa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,753
vCash: 500
2nd in 2005 is part of that deal. Lets not judge Lacroix untill the pick has been used/traded. Colorado has strong scouts, it's a deep draft, there's a good change Colorado would take a player of Ballard's impact with that pick and then Morris would be for about Vaananen + Gratton.

littleHossa is offline  
Old
05-27-2004, 01:16 AM
  #22
Captain Conservative
Registered User
 
Captain Conservative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: My Blue Heaven
Country: Spain
Posts: 3,847
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeisterBruinmaker
Not sure what you're complaining about...the Lanche have won a few cups and been one of the best teams in the league year in and year out since 1996.

No GM is gonna be perfect. None. At least PL has given his team as good a chance as any for nearly a freekin decade. Most fans would die for that...
PL messed up. That was clear from the moment the trade was made. When I heard the trade, my first thought was "That can't be all we got for Morris and Ballard". On the msg-boards, all the Avs fans were screaming, and I was one of them. I mean, this trade has the potential to make the Pitkanen trade look like a brillant move on Feasters part. At least with the Feaster move, the Lightning won the trade in the short term.

Captain Conservative is offline  
Old
05-27-2004, 01:51 AM
  #23
fcbarcelona
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,562
vCash: 500
listen here, the avs received a solid second round pick which will land the avs a solid prospect to make up for the loss of ballard to some extent. thus, the deal essentially becomes morris for vaananen and gratton. i don't know if you guys have taken an extra moment to critically evaluate the trade, but if you did you would at least realize that vaananen and gratton were highly regarded assets. chris can easily become a solid, if not dominant, third line center should he play with the passion that's required of him. vaananen is a blue-chip young d-man with enough size, physical toughness, and passing ability to become a robyn regher replica. sure, the avs lost skill in this trade, but PL got back what the team really needed now and for the future...size, faceoff presence, and greater defensive presence. heading into the playoffs, this deal helped fill some of the holes this team had. as far as i am concerned, Lacroix just did his job.

fcbarcelona is offline  
Old
05-27-2004, 01:57 PM
  #24
Beukeboom Fan
Registered User
 
Beukeboom Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 12,081
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jericholic19
listen here, the avs received a solid second round pick which will land the avs a solid prospect to make up for the loss of ballard to some extent. thus, the deal essentially becomes morris for vaananen and gratton. i don't know if you guys have taken an extra moment to critically evaluate the trade, but if you did you would at least realize that vaananen and gratton were highly regarded assets. chris can easily become a solid, if not dominant, third line center should he play with the passion that's required of him. vaananen is a blue-chip young d-man with enough size, physical toughness, and passing ability to become a robyn regher replica. sure, the avs lost skill in this trade, but PL got back what the team really needed now and for the future...size, faceoff presence, and greater defensive presence. heading into the playoffs, this deal helped fill some of the holes this team had. as far as i am concerned, Lacroix just did his job.
Do you realize that you are assuming that the 2nd round draft pick turns into a NHL top 3 d-man (what Ballard projects to)? Do you know what % of 2nd round DP's turn into NHL players, besides top 3 d-man. (And I realize that I'm assuming that Ballard turns into a top 3 d-man).

Bottom line - PL gambled that Gratton would add some 3rd grit & scoring. He flopped in the P/O's, and PL lost the deal, as he's coming out way on the short end of both sides of the trade. I really like Vaananen, but he's only 1 1/2 years younger than Morris, and I think his upside is much lower than DM.

Beukeboom Fan is offline  
Old
05-27-2004, 05:35 PM
  #25
fcbarcelona
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,562
vCash: 500
Did you read carefully what i proposed....the second round pick helps to make up for the loss of ballard. whether or not the 2nd rounder will amount to a "top 3 d-man" is certainly not gauranteed but a second rounder definitely has the potential for making up for the loss of a solid propsect. plus, who's to say ballard will definitely become a top 3 d-man (which you said you do realize). both ballard and the 2nd round pick are unknown quantities and at the present time cancel each other out to some extent.

btw, there is a 47% chance of selecting an NHLer in the second round. there is also a 3.2% chance of selecting a superstar player in the second round. (source: THN)

Gratton didn't exactly flop in the playoffs. He wasn't spectacular but he adequately fulfilled his role as a third line shutdown center (which he excelled at during the first round against Modano).

Morris definitely has more upside but Vaananen is already a more dependable defenseman. Clearly a better asset to have in the playoffs when you already have Liles and Blake as your scoring defenseman.

PL gambled no doubt, but to say he lost out on that deal is very pre-mature considering the amount of development of the players involved that has yet to take place.

Final word: trade to be re-evaluated in 5 years from now. Only then can you truly determine a "winner".


Last edited by fcbarcelona: 05-27-2004 at 05:39 PM.
fcbarcelona is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:44 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.