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Trade Value: Why very few of the proposals on this board make sense

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08-05-2010, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
I think the value criticism goes to far. Trade value, just like money when that concept started, is an abstract value that includes most of the things you say. A lot of people are simply not able to put these things into context, can't evaluate their own and other teams' players in the right relations or don't take needs into account, as a few examples. A lot is ideally included in that abstract term we call "trade value". It's not that the concept is flawed, it's that it's a complicated process to fit all of the many things to be considered into that value. That's also where I most importantly disagree with you: the attributes you mentioned at the end, especially age and contract have a very noticeable influnence on what youself earlier described as a GM's thought process of what a player would add to his team, as much as it does on a "trade value" to a certain team that includes all these factors.

Proposals end up being bad due to the majority of people being not very good at recognizing sometimes even rather basic factors in this term called "trade value", not due to the existence of the term.

To put it provocatively: the concept isn't bad, people are. And people wouldn't make better proposals on average if they didn't have an idea of the concept of a "trade value", they would still be bad at recognizing the factors that need to be considered to propose a fair trade or to come up with a "realistic trade value".
Bravo - great post.

Despite the Family Guy avatar.

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08-05-2010, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by terex View Post
So you wrote a diatribe degrading just about every poster on the trade forum. A diatribe full of blatantly obvious common knowledge and common sense. Just to make yourself feel smart. Want a cookie?
A "diatribe"? Really?

And this whole thread is made mainly due to Toronto fans. You should congratulate yourself.

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08-05-2010, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by terex View Post
Your opinion is not fact. Arguing from a false and imagined position of authority is... questionable. Just stop trying to show how smart you are. If you don't like bad proposals, use the ignore feature or give constructive feedback on how to fix them.

You are not better than your peers on this forum. We are all equals. Relax, crusader.
Not to pick on you, but isn't "giving constructive feedback" exactly what he is trying to do with this thread?

The problem with trade proposals from a fan's perspective (myself included of course) is that we often shoot for the stars when in reality a lot of the trades that actually happen are smaller and/or involve salary dumps which is much less exciting.

Its just another way us fans raise our expectations and then are disappointed.

When evaluating a player's "value", you are absolutely right that what the GM is willing to give up should be at the forefront. Unfortunately, GMs keep a tight lid on what they are thinking for the most part making which moves they are willing to do hard to predict.

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08-05-2010, 07:29 AM
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Bottom line is no one here is able to make an NHL trade happen. Nor are they privy to the information of the big league front offices as to why and what they are doing. So really all trade proposals on these boards are little more than mental ************ and serve no purpose I can fathom beyond entertainment and promoting arguments.

For the life of me I will never understand why people take these things seriously, who the hell cares if some deluded Habs fan thinks he can trade some crappy player for Crosby ? Really , what does it matter ? why is it worth outrage and insults and all that ? I'm all for specualation, team x needs this and has this to offer and team Y looks like a good match, to me that is fine. But just pulling a name out of a hat to see how people will react to your trade proposals each day...totally pointless.

So many times I've seen a thread that was something like " The Value of Eric Staal to Pittsburg" and I've wanted to respond, nothing, get a life.

Trying to make rules and guidelines for meaningless trade proposals is little better than the ridiculous proposals themselves.

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08-05-2010, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Qvist View Post
Bravo - great post.

Despite the Family Guy avatar.
Thanks - and I apologize for the latter, if that helps.

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08-05-2010, 07:58 AM
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The big problem with proposals here is that people fail to realize it has to make sense on some level for both teams for a trade to happen.

Most proposals here are basically people trying to get rid of overpaid/under performing player on their own team and/or getting a very good young player to their team. Without regard for why the other team does it. Add the fact that teams that are up against the cap aren't going to get paid 100 cents on the dollar. They might get 90 but also they might get 60.

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08-05-2010, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Qvist View Post
That is truly one of the silliest posts I have read on these boards. The man expressed an opinion. You can agree with it or disagree with it. That brings into play what is commonly referred to as arguments. Which we use so that we're not reduced to the sort of inane idiocy represented by reasoning along the lines of "you're no better than me, so my opinion is just as valid as yours".
There is no argument when the poster is attempting to command from his perch, cannot be convinced, and does not wish to do anything but post walls of text in order to beat people into submission or boredom. That is merely an exercise in futility.

How, exaclty, is it "inane idiocy" to try and get the point across that he is no better than the rest of us? Have you seen some of his proposals? I mean, really, have you gone through his post and thread history? He is complaining on and on about problems that he, himself, is guilty of and refuses to acknowledge. The whole post is dripping with delicious hypocrisy. His advice is quite ironic, and arguing with him is quite hopeless.

Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post
A "diatribe"? Really?

1 archaic : a prolonged discourse
2 : a bitter and abusive speech or writing
3 : ironic or satirical criticism

Yes, really. How would you describe this post? I think the word fits like a glove.

Originally Posted by Spasmic Dan View Post
Not to pick on you, but isn't "giving constructive feedback" exactly what he is trying to do with this thread?
You're not picking on me. I can take it just fine.

In my opinion, there is not much constructive about a fella that holds his own opinions so highly above everyone else's. His little rant aims to dictate what is and is not acceptable to him on a public forum.

The bottom line is that no one cares what he wants to dictate as acceptable on the forum. Particularly when he, himself, and his team's fan base (sorry, reasonable Leafs fans) are the main offenders. The forum has a built-in feature to ignore users and threads that you don't like. He can use them, rather than wasting our time preaching.

This thread is just a big to-do about how non-Leafs fans don't appreciate the Leafs fans' proposals, and how one poster wants the rest of us to realize that Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk is serious business. It is buried beneath rather pedantic observations, however true they are, but that is the crux of the matter.

In summation to the original poster, if you don't like a thread or poster, ignore them. Trying to get people to conform to what you want isn't going to work, unless you want to start your own hockey forum. You can rule over that one however you wish.

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08-05-2010, 08:07 AM
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I am not going to dig up some golden jfried trade proposals, but you are one of the last people that should be posting a rant like this.

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08-05-2010, 08:17 AM
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Terrible post.

Then again, I'm not surprised, seeing as how you constantly under-value oppposing teams players, while over-valuing your own.

No, nothing to see here, just another Leafs homer spewing nonsense about proposals he doesn't agree with.

Also, you have no idea how GM's operate on a moment-to-moment basis, just like the rest of us. You may think you do, but this is clearly one of those situations that the logic "the more you know, the less you know" directly applies.

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08-05-2010, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
So you tell everyone else that they have no idea what actual trade value is, because it's the GMs who decide (common knowledge), then you go into why some proposals won't happen?

If you were just going to contradict yourself, you could have done so in a lot fewer words.

So if the point is that someone should post looking to add value to both teams, great. Or that perhaps a GM values something differently based on history -- illustrated with actual evidence is a bonus here, otherwise it slides into hearsay and poster preferences.

It seems some people take the tack that what is good for their team makes a deal "good". It has to make sense for both teams -- and even then, as evidenced by deals we see that have actually happened, what the concensus is on "good" does not have to have any bearing on what actually happens in the NHL in reality.

One final point -- glittering generalities don't work. "The problem with this place/poster/thread type" posts aren't engaging anyone in conversation, they are veiled attacks. It doesn't foster conversation, but it can certainly get an arguement going.

Last edited by Chainshot: 08-05-2010 at 10:39 AM.
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