HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Carolina Hurricanes
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

If your the Canes would you take this trade?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-06-2010, 02:02 AM
  #1
malfobi88
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 89
vCash: 500
If your the Canes would you take this trade?

To Carolina:

Rights to Marc Staal
2011 4th Round pick

To New York:

Jussi Jokinen
Zac Delpe
2011 1st round pick


Thoughts?

I am a Ranger fan,not trolling just throwing an idea out there.


To Carolina:

Rights to Marc Staal
2011 4th Round pick

To New York:

Brandon Sutter
Zac Delpe
2011 1st round pick


Thoughts?

malfobi88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 02:09 AM
  #2
vwg*
Scoring Not Allowed
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Krasnoyarsk
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 19,957
vCash: 500
Yes to the 1st, no to the 2nd although the 2nd one is probably what it would take. Love Marc but I just couldn't stomach trading Sutter, Dalpe and a 1st for him.

vwg* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 02:21 AM
  #3
DaveG
Mod Supervisor
How's the thesis?
 
DaveG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Durham NC
Country: United States
Posts: 32,104
vCash: 562
I think either would be a bit of an overpayment, but certainly not the typical trolling proposals we see on the main board.

The first one is the more realistic of the two IMO.

DaveG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 02:35 AM
  #4
Vagrant
The Czech Condor
 
Vagrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 20,178
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Vagrant
Jussi Jokinen is on one of the best value to hit contracts in the league right now. He's not likely to be moved. Brandon Sutter is no longer a prospect, but rather a young player on the verge of breaking out in a big way.

Zac Dalpe and the 2011 1st alone should be enough to make the deal. That pick could be anywhere in the first round. Anywhere. However, it's more likely a Top 10 pick than anything else to be honest with ourselves.

Here is the compensation bracket:

$994,433 or below None
Over $994,433 to $1,506,716
Third-round choice
Over $1,506,716 to $3,013,434 Second-round choice
Over $3,013,434 to $4,520,150 First-round and third-round choice
Over $4,520,150 to $6,026,867 First-round, second-round and third-round choice
Over $6,026,867 to $7,533,584 Two first-round choices, one second- and one third-round choice
Over $7,533,584 Four first-round choices

To me, that makes it pretty cleary that Staal would likely fit into the 1st round pick and 3rd round pick compensation bracket if he were signed to an offer sheet. I doubt he clears $4.5 million. Even if we wanted to get ambitious and say that his value would be a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick then there is no way we trade Jokinen and Dalpe together in lieu of two picks. Especially a 2nd and a 3rd.

When you start to break down the other offer, we tread into the ridiculous.

If Rutherford wanted Staal that badly, he would nut up and make the offer sheet or complete a sign and trade for roughly the value of the compensation. IMO, Jokinen > 2nd and Dalpe > 3rd.

Vagrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 03:14 AM
  #5
Blueline Bomber
Expectations - high
 
Blueline Bomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 22,678
vCash: 500
I actually had a discussion with a Ranger buddy of mine that threw out a similar proposal.

Carolina:
Signed Marc Staal (he said they're expecting about 4.5)
Redden/Drury


NY Rangers:
Ruutu
Dalpe
3rd/4th

Apparently Redden/Drury is there simply because Carolina's got to take on the additional salary if they want Staal. If Ruutu was planning on being our 3rd line center this upcoming season (and I've seen him there in a couple possible lineups), I'd be OK with Drury and his inflated contract in his place instead if it means we get Staal.

Blueline Bomber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 05:01 AM
  #6
Vagrant
The Czech Condor
 
Vagrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 20,178
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Vagrant
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I actually had a discussion with a Ranger buddy of mine that threw out a similar proposal.

Carolina:
Signed Marc Staal (he said they're expecting about 4.5)
Redden/Drury


NY Rangers:
Ruutu
Dalpe
3rd/4th

Apparently Redden/Drury is there simply because Carolina's got to take on the additional salary if they want Staal. If Ruutu was planning on being our 3rd line center this upcoming season (and I've seen him there in a couple possible lineups), I'd be OK with Drury and his inflated contract in his place instead if it means we get Staal.
Either of those players, Redden or Drury, would be FAR too much of a financial strain to couple with the contract of Staal for us to ever consider a move like that. Redden has possibly the most negative equity in the league on that contract. Drury is owed an astonishing $13 million over the next 2 years. Redden is owed $23 million over the next 4 years. Twenty. Three. Million.

That value is nearly enough to negate the need to send ANYTHING back in addition to getting Marc Staal in the process. When the name "Ruutu" came up, that should have been the end of the discussion.

We were *****ing about Brind'Amour coming back at $3 million but somehow we'd be okay with taking a $13 million or $23 million incentive for the RIGHT to pay Marc Staal $4.5 million a year? Bless my heart.

If we had to take Redden to get Marc Staal, I would offer a 3rd round pick. If we had to take Drury, it would be a 2nd and a lower tier prospect.

I would bet that New York would give away a boat load of assets if somebody simply agreed to take Redden and buy him out. This is the Cap Hit if the Rangers were to buy him out today:

WADE REDDEN BUYOUT FROM CAPGEEK.COM
2010-2011: $1,916,667
2011-2012: $1,916,667
2012-2013: $3,416,667
2013-2014: $3,416,667
2014-2015: $1,916,667
2015-2016: $1,916,667
2016-2017: $1,916,667
2017-2018: $1,916,667

We would owe him $15.3 million over 8 years.

Vagrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 09:33 AM
  #7
Sasha Cares
28 mph!!!!!!!
 
Sasha Cares's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Island of Misfit Toy
Posts: 9,474
vCash: 500
no way to both

Sasha Cares is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 10:05 AM
  #8
geehaad
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,002
vCash: 500
Serious question: is Wade Redden no longer a serviceable NHL defenseman?

Not seriously considering it question: would he fit into the top 6 in Raleigh (salary notwithstanding)?

geehaad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 10:07 AM
  #9
Sens1Canes2
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,058
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT View Post
no way to both
agreed. He ain't that good. Plus I see Jokinen here for a lot of years.

Sens1Canes2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 10:17 AM
  #10
StormCast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 2,980
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT View Post
no way to both
Agreed. I like Marc Staal's game but he's simply not worth that much and it begs a couple of questions. If Eric Staal weren't with the Canes (not to mention Jared) and if Marc Staal was Marc Smith, would acquiring him have nearly the same appeal? No on both counts so I'd pass. Getting enamored with the cachet of a name rarely works out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I actually had a discussion with a Ranger buddy of mine that threw out a similar proposal.

Carolina:
Signed Marc Staal (he said they're expecting about 4.5)
Redden/Drury


NY Rangers:
Ruutu
Dalpe
3rd/4th

Apparently Redden/Drury is there simply because Carolina's got to take on the additional salary if they want Staal. If Ruutu was planning on being our 3rd line center this upcoming season (and I've seen him there in a couple possible lineups), I'd be OK with Drury and his inflated contract in his place instead if it means we get Staal.
I wouldn't do that. Would you be ok with a big ticket price hike too?

StormCast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 11:05 AM
  #11
totalkev
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,579
vCash: 500
I think it would be neat to have Eric and Marc here, but by no means does that mean I'm willing to overpay for Marc (in terms of a trade). The fact is, if he's going to get up to $4.5 million in his next contract, he's just not as valuable in trade. Instead of being a bargain, he's now being paid fair value, if not a tad over what he's worth, based on the (very real) probability he continues to improve.

I realize we'd have to give up solid assets to acquire a guy like Marc, but a stud forward prospect and a first-rounder is plenty. I think Marc tends to be overvalued not because we have Eric (and Jared), but because people still think of him as being cheap.

Like Vagrant said above, even if we use the "Over $4,520,150" compensation for signing an RFA, we're talking a first, second and third. I'd consider Dalpe and a first to be basically two first-rounders, even though Dalpe was taken in the second. The first/third compensation of "Under $4,520,150" -- plus the fact that Staal will no longer be a bargain by any measure -- makes it clear both deals are overpayment.

Having said all this, I think it'll have to be a trade that gets Marc out of New York. Any offer sheet kills any chance of him being moved. The Rangers will just match and that will be all she wrote.

totalkev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 11:30 AM
  #12
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 33,831
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
If Rutherford wanted Staal that badly, he would nut up and make the offer sheet or complete a sign and trade for roughly the value of the compensation.
That's your answer. No need to trade if you can offer-sheet him.

Or, if for whatever reason JR wanted to avoid an offer sheet, he wouldn't go dramatically above the comp value. In a similar situation, Brian Burke basically upgraded a 3rd to a 1st to avoid the offer sheet.

tarheelhockey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 11:55 AM
  #13
Anton Dubinchuk
Danny Markov
 
Anton Dubinchuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 10,363
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
That's your answer. No need to trade if you can offer-sheet him.

Or, if for whatever reason JR wanted to avoid an offer sheet, he wouldn't go dramatically above the comp value. In a similar situation, Brian Burke basically upgraded a 3rd to a 1st to avoid the offer sheet.
Sather has publicly announced that he will match ANY offer sheet for Staal, so offer-sheeting him (made up a new verb there) would actually ruin any chance of us getting him.

Anton Dubinchuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 12:01 PM
  #14
imayagainknowanson
Jailbait
 
imayagainknowanson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bulgaria
Posts: 6,894
vCash: 500
I smell G. Wesley 2 here.

imayagainknowanson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 12:04 PM
  #15
faulkingdynamic
J Troll
 
faulkingdynamic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Raleigh NC
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgusta21 View Post
Sather has publicly announced that he will match ANY offer sheet for Staal, so offer-sheeting him (made up a new verb there) would actually ruin any chance of us getting him.
but it would force Sather's hand....would Sather really turn down JRs trade offer afterwards even if it was the best offer? You'd be a dumb GM to turn down the best offer just to spite someone....though we are talking about Sather. However since JR and Slats are both old guard guys none of this would happen.

And let's be honest, Sather has already shown that he has no intention of giving Marc what he is worth. this is a case where im sure the union is hoping for an offer sheet.

faulkingdynamic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 12:20 PM
  #16
1213caniac1630*
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Down South
Country: United States
Posts: 274
vCash: 500
I wouldn't take that trade...Dalpe is a very good prospect and I've heard great things about him...Sutter goes nowhere..and I don't see us trading Jokinen either...sorry.

1213caniac1630* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 12:29 PM
  #17
caniac247
Registered User
 
caniac247's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Raleigh
Country: United States
Posts: 4,656
vCash: 500
Considering I'm not one that is looking to get all 4 Staal brothers, I wouldn't do either trade. Not to mention what do we then do with all the defensemen? We can't just shuffle one or two down to Charlotte, cause well they are pretty full in that departmen as well. Our need right now is forwards, so I don't particular want to trade one, especially not Sutter or Jokinen.

However, if I had to chose one, I'd go with the first. If Jokinen repeats what he did last year, we might lose him anyway after the season.

caniac247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 01:13 PM
  #18
Joe McGrath
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,792
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eerodynamic View Post
but it would force Sather's hand....would Sather really turn down JRs trade offer afterwards even if it was the best offer? You'd be a dumb GM to turn down the best offer just to spite someone....though we are talking about Sather. However since JR and Slats are both old guard guys none of this would happen.
And let's be honest, Sather has already shown that he has no intention of giving Marc what he is worth. this is a case where im sure the union is hoping for an offer sheet.
Didn't JR try to sign Fedorov to an offer sheet with ridiculous bonuses the Red Wings had to match some time ago? Hardly an "old-guard" move if you ask me, especially to the franchise he spent much of his NHL career playing for.

Joe McGrath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 01:22 PM
  #19
dmonk
doughberle
 
dmonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Country: Azerbaijan
Posts: 7,982
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to dmonk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe McGrath View Post
Didn't JR try to sign Fedorov to an offer sheet with ridiculous bonuses the Red Wings had to match some time ago? Hardly an "old-guard" move if you ask me, especially to the franchise he spent much of his NHL career playing for.
wasn't it like 12 years ago... surely, 12 years is enough to become an old guard.

dmonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 01:38 PM
  #20
Joe McGrath
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,792
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmonk View Post
wasn't it like 12 years ago... surely, 12 years is enough to become an old guard.
I guess that's a fair point. I never figured Rutherford as an "old guard" type though, at least through his personnel decisions. Those types of GM's, like Sather, always have a goon and over pay to get top tier defenseman (or at least perceived top tier defenseman). JR wants nothing to do with goons and has some rather unique views on how to build a defense (not saying right or wrong, just unique).

Joe McGrath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 01:57 PM
  #21
bleedgreen
Moderator
 
bleedgreen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: colorado
Posts: 10,797
vCash: 500
i would just give them the picks. if they were interested in pitts or babs id work either in. id even do gleason if it came to it, but in the end it should only cost picks. like the kessel trade, we may have to increase the deal pick wise so they wont match.

bleedgreen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 02:08 PM
  #22
geehaad
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,002
vCash: 500
Regarding the question of being "old guard" or not...either way, that offer was made in the middle of his 4th season as GM. And who knows...maybe it was a good learning experience for him.

geehaad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 02:22 PM
  #23
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 33,831
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgusta21 View Post
Sather has publicly announced that he will match ANY offer sheet for Staal, so offer-sheeting him (made up a new verb there) would actually ruin any chance of us getting him.
1) Sather can puff his chest all he wants, but he's sitting on a mountain of bad contracts and he won't be matching anything if the numbers don't line up.

2) The Kessel trade was the result of a nearly identical situation. Burke went into predator mode when he realized Kessel was asking for more than he could possibly get in Boston. Chiarelli publicly stated that any offer sheet on Kessel would be matched. Burke didn't want to come of as a total hypocrite after his public spat with Lowe over offer sheets. End result: Burke offers a trade that is slightly better than an offer sheet (upgrading a 3rd to a 1st) and Chiarelli has little choice but to do the deal.

tarheelhockey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 02:34 PM
  #24
vwg*
Scoring Not Allowed
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Krasnoyarsk
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 19,957
vCash: 500
Only reason I would trade Jokinen is because I'm not sure his value will ever be higher. I don't really see him going any higher than his 65 points last season and his next contract isn't going to be a bargain like the current deal. I think the Rangers would match anything up to 6 million on an offer sheet (by sending whoever they have to to the minors) and I definitely wouldn't sign Marc to anything above the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd compensation bracket, so I think trading for him is the most realistic option and by doing that, you have to give to get.

That said, I really don't want to move Jokinen or Dalpe anyway.. Marc is a great young defenseman and would immediately help us, but I like our current team and prospects going into the future, at least enough not to break the bank by making a big acquisition. Patience we must have Caniacs.

vwg* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2010, 02:53 PM
  #25
Anton Dubinchuk
Danny Markov
 
Anton Dubinchuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 10,363
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
1) Sather can puff his chest all he wants, but he's sitting on a mountain of bad contracts and he won't be matching anything if the numbers don't line up.

2) The Kessel trade was the result of a nearly identical situation. Burke went into predator mode when he realized Kessel was asking for more than he could possibly get in Boston. Chiarelli publicly stated that any offer sheet on Kessel would be matched. Burke didn't want to come of as a total hypocrite after his public spat with Lowe over offer sheets. End result: Burke offers a trade that is slightly better than an offer sheet (upgrading a 3rd to a 1st) and Chiarelli has little choice but to do the deal.
1) I understand that if the numbers don't line up Sather won't match the contract, but considering the Canes are a team that are right up against their cap (their self-imposed cap, but still), there's no way that the Canes could offer a deal big enough that Sather would consider backing away.

2) I agree, this is a Kessel-like situation. Burke knew an offer sheet would be matched, so he offered a trade. This is EXACTLY my argument as to what JR should do, offer the TRADE and don't do the offer sheet. I think we're fighting on the same side here.

Anton Dubinchuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:30 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.