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What does Chris Pronger have to do to become a top ten defenseman of all-time?

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Old
08-06-2010, 12:02 PM
  #26
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Thats great for you if you rank them higher, i aint trying to change your opinion. Pronger already has both of them beat on durability and playoffs, and before you start talking about bad playoff teams, pronger took edmonton to the finals for gods sakes.

Pronger has a hart and norris, salming was never even a finalist for the hart trophy, no way would he ever beat a prime jagr out for the hart.
Pronger doesn't have any of them beat on "durability." The biggest thing hurting him is all the time he spent injured in his prime. Sure, Pronger is better at an older age than they were, but Howe and Salming had better sustained primes than Pronger for no other reason but health.

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08-06-2010, 12:03 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
If you could start naming defensemen that had three near-Smythes in their entire careers, let alone a five-year span, we're all ears. I mean, this is territory for which Orr barely qualifies...
Orr did win 2 Smythes, '70 and '72 and the only thing that kept him from another in '71 making it 3 straight was some Dryden kid that put on a performance that to this day is still ranked as one of the all time best.

Orr barely qualifies my ass and please never again mention Pronger in any comparison to Orr, it's insulting.


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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Pronger doesn't have any of them beat on "durability." The biggest thing hurting him is all the time he spent injured in his prime. Sure, Pronger is better at an older age than they were, but Howe and Salming had better sustained primes than Pronger for no other reason but health.
Yeah and honestly, have you seen a tougher player than Salming?
The abuse that guy took over the years was incredible yet didn't miss a lot of time and never backed down.

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08-06-2010, 12:07 PM
  #28
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There is nothing he can do because he wont be one. His resume is way too thin and he's not getting any better.

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08-06-2010, 12:14 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
If you could start naming defensemen that had three near-Smythes in their entire careers, let alone a five-year span, we're all ears. I mean, this is territory for which Orr barely qualifies...
Off the top of my head, Lidstrom and Stevens probably qualify, though not all within 5 years.

Scott Stevens won the Smythe in 2000 and was a very good candidate to win it in 1995. Sure Niedermayer was ahead of Stevens on his own team in 2003, but he was obviously ahead of Pronger in 2006. Stevens wasn't as good in 2001 as 2000, but he was the best Devils defenseman by a good margin.

Lidstrom? He won a Smythe in 2002. Was mentioned among the candidates in 1998 and 2008. He wasn't really talked about as a candidate in 1997, but he did own Lindros in the finals.

I have a feeling Harvey, Robinson, and Savard might have had 3 "near Smythes," depending on what qualifies.

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08-06-2010, 12:33 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Yeah and honestly, have you seen a tougher player than Salming?
The abuse that guy took over the years was incredible yet didn't miss a lot of time and never backed down.
You could match Salming up with pretty much any player in history on the toughness scale and he wouldn't give up much.

He was seriously one tough sob.

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Old
08-06-2010, 12:40 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Pronger doesn't have any of them beat on "durability." The biggest thing hurting him is all the time he spent injured in his prime. Sure, Pronger is better at an older age than they were, but Howe and Salming had better sustained primes than Pronger for no other reason but health.
all star team selection isnt the only method. In 1999, 2002, 2006 and 2010 he could have easily been chosen to the 2nd team and the norris voting supports that. His playoff career is also alot better, thats how we judge forwards on this website, why not defencemen?

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08-06-2010, 12:40 PM
  #32
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Serge Savard

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Off the top of my head, Lidstrom and Stevens probably qualify, though not all within 5 years.

Scott Stevens won the Smythe in 2000 and was a very good candidate to win it in 1995. Sure Niedermayer was ahead of Stevens on his own team in 2003, but he was obviously ahead of Pronger in 2006. Stevens wasn't as good in 2001 as 2000, but he was the best Devils defenseman by a good margin.

Lidstrom? He won a Smythe in 2002. Was mentioned among the candidates in 1998 and 2008. He wasn't really talked about as a candidate in 1997, but he did own Lindros in the finals.

I have a feeling Harvey, Robinson, and Savard might have had 3 "near Smythes," depending on what qualifies.
Serge Savard has an actual Smythe - 1969.

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08-06-2010, 12:49 PM
  #33
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Chris Pronger

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Originally Posted by Jack Edwards View Post
There is nothing he can do because he wont be one. His resume is way too thin and he's not getting any better.
Accurate assessment of Chris Pronger. His overall game has never been All-Time Top 10 quality or consistency.

All the 2010 playoffs clearly showed that if he is challenged every shift for the area in front of the net he is not nearly as effective. His lack of quickness forces him to cheat a little in coverage creating further openings.

Previously a remark was posted measuring him to Timmonen. Given Pronger's age and his CV it would take a remarkable turnaround from his present level to All Time Top 10 heights.

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08-06-2010, 12:58 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Stank Mahovlich View Post
Right now I've got the feeling that most top tens are like:

1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Eddie Shore
4. Ray Bourque
5. Nick Lidstrom
6. Denis Potvin
7. Red Kelly

And then some mix of Coffey, Fetisov, Robinson, Chelios, and Park.

Where does Pronger rank right now? I would personally have him on par with Leetch and MacInnis, just ahead of Savard/Langway/Niedermayer/Clancy/Cleghorn/Siebert/Pilote, and just behind Horton, Stevens and the rest.

What would it take for Pronger to leapfrog into the group of five players mentioned above? Is it possible?
Not a chance Pronger is above Clancy or Pilote.

I agree with what a few others have said...the Top 10 is pretty much impossible for him to realistically reach at this point. I do think he could get as high as 15, but even that would take a lot.

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Old
08-06-2010, 01:01 PM
  #35
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Serge Savard has an actual Smythe - 1969.
I know. I assumed he was including actual Smythes as "near Smythes" by giving Bobby Orr as an example. Basically using "near Smythe" as I would say "Smythe-worthy." Otherwise, my Lidstrom and Stevens examples also fail.

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08-06-2010, 01:05 PM
  #36
John Druce
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If he gets 2 Cups with the Flyers, 1 Norris, and a Conn Smyth, before his contract runs out, we'll be talking about one of the best of all time IMO.

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08-06-2010, 01:13 PM
  #37
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For the achievements of their careers he might rank lower than some but if i'm a GM I pick Pronger over some of these guys for sure , as a forward I wouldn't want to play against Pronger.

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08-06-2010, 02:02 PM
  #38
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Comparing Pronger to Salming is not as clear as it seems looking at trophies. Look at which players Salming had to compete with during his prime. Orr and Potvin to name a few. Pronger is great and his norris shares are a testament to how good he is. Salmings votes are - 5th(1974), 4th(1975), 3rd(1976), 2nd(1977), 4th(1978), 3rd(1979), 2nd(1980), 10th(1981). Its close but I feel that Pronger should have been able to bag a couple of norris trophies. If he makes 15 on the all-time list he has done a remarkable job in the end of his career. He certainly is going to make the HHOF.

/Cheers

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08-06-2010, 04:35 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Orr did win 2 Smythes, '70 and '72 and the only thing that kept him from another in '71 making it 3 straight was some Dryden kid that put on a performance that to this day is still ranked as one of the all time best.

Orr barely qualifies my ass and please never again mention Pronger in any comparison to Orr, it's insulting.
You realize that the Boston Bruins didn't even make the Finals in 1971, right?

That's my point: Putting on three playoff performances like Pronger did- the type of performances in which no one would've batted an eye had his name been called at the end of the Finals- is not a common thing. Not in a career, and certainly not in a five-year span. Don't make it out to be one.

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08-06-2010, 04:55 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
1. Bobby Orr
2. Eddie Shore
3. Doug Harvey
4. Ray Bourque
5. Nicklas Lidstrom
6. Red Kelly*
7. Denis Potvin
8. Larry Robinson
9. Slava Fetisov
10. Chris Chelios
11. Brad Park
12. King Clancy
13. Paul Coffey
14. Pierre Pilote
15. Dit Clapper*
16. Scott Stevens
17. Tim Horton
18. Earl Seibert
19. Al MacInnis
20. Sprague Cleghorn
21. Bill Gadsby
22. Borje Salming
23. Brian Leetch
24. Valeri Vasiliev
25. Chris Pronger
...
33. Scott Niedermayer
...
44. Rob Blake

*Ranking based on overall career. Clapper would definitely be lower if just based on his time at D.

That's my top 25. By the end of his career, I could easily see Pronger at a Stevens/Horton level, but he needs several more excellent seasons and/or playoffs for that.

Getting into the Top 10 would be nearly impossible at his age. Chelios has 3 Norris trophies against the deepest competition ever, and several excellent playoffs just like Chris. Chelios was also far more consistent than Chris and less injury-prone. Pronger is really hurt by the fact that he was a playoff choker early in his career and then spent much of what should have been his prime with a series of injuries.
I just don't think Pronger is gonna add more to his resume. This said, I'd have him ahead of Salming. I have a really huge gap between Cleghorn and Gadsby, though.

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08-06-2010, 04:58 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
If you could start naming defensemen that had three near-Smythes in their entire careers, let alone a five-year span, we're all ears. I mean, this is territory for which Orr barely qualifies...
If you are basing Pronger's rise into the top ten based on "almost's" then you would have to judge everyone else on "almost's" as well. To think in that way is fallacious and misleading from accomplishments. Pronger has had great runs, but you can't skew history to make it more appealing for your argument. Your twisting his playoff run into something that he was rewarded and recognized for, when in reality he just has had great playoff runs.

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08-06-2010, 05:03 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
That's my point: Putting on three playoff performances like Pronger did- the type of performances in which no one would've batted an eye had his name been called at the end of the Finals- is not a common thing. Not in a career, and certainly not in a five-year span. Don't make it out to be one.
I'm curious where you're going with this argument in regards to this thread. I don't think anyone can argue that Pronger hasn't had some very impressive playoff performances and has been one of the elite dmen in his era. Do you think that's enough to put him on the bubble for the top 10? I see him much closer to 20th but am admittedly biased towards 80's and 90's dmen.

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08-06-2010, 05:24 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Dgill View Post
If you are basing Pronger's rise into the top ten based on "almost's" then you would have to judge everyone else on "almost's" as well. To think in that way is fallacious and misleading from accomplishments. Pronger has had great runs, but you can't skew history to make it more appealing for your argument. Your twisting his playoff run into something that he was rewarded and recognized for, when in reality he just has had great playoff runs.
So, because the Conn Smythe doesn't list runner-ups, we aren't allowed to consider his 2006, 2007, and 2010 runs to be anything more than "great playoff runs?" To me, that's like telling me that if the Hart Trophy voting results were just as clandestine, then I couldn't consider Jagr's 1998, 2000, 2001, and 2006 to be anything more than great regular seasons when instead they are the backbone of his career argument and placement in the HOH 100. Tell me how many times HockeyOutsider has listed each player's Hart voting record. Why can't we look at the playoffs in the same way? Because the voters don't make the results available? We have eyes; we know who was considered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonAJ
I'm curious where you're going with this argument in regards to this thread. I don't think anyone can argue that Pronger hasn't had some very impressive playoff performances and has been one of the elite dmen in his era. Do you think that's enough to put him on the bubble for the top 10? I see him much closer to 20th but am admittedly biased towards 80's and 90's dmen.
I don't think Pronger is top 10. Because of his drawbacks (consistency and occasional clumsiness when dealing with speed), he pretty much can't be top ten unless we're only looking at their peak play, at which point he looks incredible. But I think it's silly that Rhiessan71 more or less wrote off those "very impressive playoff performances" as being runs that "the guys that are ahead of him didn't just 'do it' for 5 years," when very few if one or two can even claim to have had three runs like that in their career.

Call them near-Smythes, call them Smythe-level runs, call them what you will: I'd like to hear some names of defensemen that had legitimate cases for three of them. Not "Oh, he would have, but he was knocked out in the first round by Ken Dryden," but "He's in the Finals, and win or lose, people believe he deserved to win."

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08-06-2010, 05:30 PM
  #44
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I don't get why Pronger would have been a finalist this year. He wasn't better than Timonen. He wasn't exactly what got Philly past the Bruins. Sure thing I dont even know if I count him as a top 5 even on his own team.

2006 he might make a case but my guess is that Roloson was more important. In 2007 the ducks won both their games without him so he wasn't the defining factor on that team apart from being on a great defensive force. Whats left? He was never a factor before the lock-out and he had one exceptional year in '00.

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08-06-2010, 05:34 PM
  #45
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Getting into the Top 10 would be nearly impossible at his age. Chelios has 3 Norris trophies against the deepest competition ever, and several excellent playoffs just like Chris. Chelios was also far more consistent than Chris and less injury-prone. Pronger is really hurt by the fact that he was a playoff choker early in his career and then spent much of what should have been his prime with a series of injuries.
Am I the first one to realize that I used "Chris" to compare Pronger with Chelios?

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08-06-2010, 08:12 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post


I don't think Pronger is top 10. Because of his drawbacks (consistency and occasional clumsiness when dealing with speed), he pretty much can't be top ten unless we're only looking at their peak play, at which point he looks incredible. But I think it's silly that Rhiessan71 more or less wrote off those "very impressive playoff performances" as being runs that "the guys that are ahead of him didn't just 'do it' for 5 years," when very few if one or two can even claim to have had three runs like that in their career.
My whole point was you don't make it into the top 10-15 all time by only putting in 4-5 great years out of 16.
I was not dismissing how good he's played recently. What I am dismissing are his chances of being considered being one of the all time 10-15 greats because of his other 10 or so years.
You wanna put Pronger's name out there when talking about who you would like on your team for a 3-5 year stretch at his best, then fine but you want a player that gives you 15-20 years of all time great play, Prongers name is not going to be on that list, sorry.
So if you think Pronger's play in the last few years is enough to overcome the FULL career's of the guys ahead of them, then that's your opinion but you'd be most definitely be in the minority.


Quote:
Call them near-Smythes, call them Smythe-level runs, call them what you will: I'd like to hear some names of defensemen that had legitimate cases for three of them. Not "Oh, he would have, but he was knocked out in the first round by Ken Dryden," but "He's in the Finals, and win or lose, people believe he deserved to win."
Of course, it's not like Orr put up 12 points in that 7 game first round series loss or anything and he still DID win the Smythe 2 out of 3 years not "he almost won 3 in 5 years".

All I can say is where is his name on the trophy and more importantly, where was he the other 11 years of his career.
Does Jose Theodore deserve to be in the top 20 goalies of all time because he had 4-5 outstanding years out of 16...I think not sir and he's got a Hart that he actually earned.


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Old
08-06-2010, 08:31 PM
  #47
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Does Jose Theodore deserve to be in the top 20 goalies of all time because he had 4-5 outstanding years out of 16...I think not sir and he's got a Hart that he actually earned.
Can I confirm you're saying the following two things:

1) Chris Pronger didn't earn his Hart in 2000;
2) Jose Theodore had a five year stretch where he was an elite goaltender, on the same level as Pronger with respect to defensemen?

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08-06-2010, 08:33 PM
  #48
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Am I the first one to realize that I used "Chris" to compare Pronger with Chelios?
Never occurred to me while reading your post, but good stuff

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08-06-2010, 08:53 PM
  #49
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Pronger has certainly moved up my list in the past 3 years. But I cannot see him ever breaking my top 10. I have Chelios and Park tied at 10, with Coffey at 11.

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08-06-2010, 09:01 PM
  #50
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Can I confirm you're saying the following two things:

1) Chris Pronger didn't earn his Hart in 2000;
2) Jose Theodore had a five year stretch where he was an elite goaltender, on the same level as Pronger with respect to defensemen?

1) Pronger BARELY won his Hart over Jagr who only played 3/4's of the season, so yeah, winning by default is not earned.
Not to mention all the media politicking that was going on that year for a Dman to win it.

2) How about you find me 5 straight years that Pronger dominated in the way you say first because I really don't see 07/08 and 08/09 as all that dominating, do you?

Sometimes I really hate these threads because trying to put a player into perspective is almost always interpreted as bashing.
Pronger is/was a hell of a Dman, he's simply just not top 15 and is not one of the all time greats, sorry but that's the way I see it.
Waaaay too many "wasted" years imo.
It's not like I was all that happy as a Habs fan, when he came over to the East last season.


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