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Roloson proposal

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Old
05-30-2004, 09:11 AM
  #26
SabresRule
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Quote:
I think he's better than Luongo right now.
:lol :lol

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05-30-2004, 09:22 AM
  #27
LALALALALALAFONTAINE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Here's how much I think of Roloson:

I think he's better than Luongo right now.

Product of the system talk all you want - the system the Wild had this year sucked. Roloson makes more big saves than 90% of the goaltenders in the league right now, but nobody notices (or cares to notice).

Quite frankly, the original deal was pretty weak. If I'm the Wild, I'd be asking for Miro Satan back for Roloson - maybe more.
High praise indeed, but Roloson has the higher save percentage than Luongo, so you can certainly argue the point and actually have a reason to do so. I think Luongo's better, simply because he gets in more games. The difference isn't that much, however. Given the prospect of a new CBA and Luongo itching for a new contract, Roloson might be the goalie to have under contract too.

Few people notice. That is the nature of talking heads. I remember back in the day when Hasek's performance was considered a fluke or a product of the system, which the Sabres apparently changed overnight when Fuhr got injured. I don't know why either. I thought Roloson was bound to get more respect after Patrick Roy lost yet another playoff series to a lesser team, but apparently not.

I would easily give up Satan for Roloson, but I don't consider that Satan has much trade value because of his $5.25M salary for next year. Check out the package that Kovalev got from Montreal. I think the original package I offered has more trade value than Satan.

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05-30-2004, 09:34 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by SabresRule
i read an article where roloson said he didnt like his years here, and the way the organisation treated him. he likes minnesota.

his a very good goalie, to be sure, but mid 30's and i doubt he could handle the games where our defense screw up.

i dont wanto overpay for someone who was a bad backup here once before.

i doubt his a big upgrade. CERTAINLY not for prospects. we're a young team. let's keep the prospects that are good.
Cite the article where Roloson said this. The only problem he had in Buffalo was getting enough PT, and he wasn't stupid enough to suggest he should have gotten more PT with Hasek in Buffalo. And if Hasek isn't in Buffalo now, there is nothing to suggest he wouldn't like playing in Buffalo.

Hasek was mid 30s in 1998 too. Did you want to deal him? Roloson handles the games where Minnesota's defense screws up.

Hasek was also a bad backup in Buffalo at one time.

You doubt he's a big upgrade? Who has the best save percentage over the past two years? When have you seen him play last? With Calgary?

You have no problem simply waiving Pyatt or Connolly, and you criticize me for dealing the older Kotalik, older Tallinder or Pominville?

The Sabres are the youngest team in the NHL. If you can dramatically improve their goaltending by dealing Kotalik (not in stretch run last year), Tallinder (Sabres have a glut of LD) or Pominville (not as good a prospect as Vanek, Roy, Paille, Pyatt, Connolly, so he gets lost in the numbers) you do it. And having a 34 year old goaltender is PERFECT for the Sabres situation because it gives Noronen and Miller more time to develop.

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05-30-2004, 09:35 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
:lol :lol
And how could you judge this?

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05-30-2004, 10:17 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
Roloson to Buffalo for:

Any three of:
Kotalik, Tallinder, Pominville and 2004 2nd rounder.

Thoughts? If Roloson goes, would Minnesota be interested in Biron (I assume not)?
If Roloson goes then Minnesota is tanking and trying to get Harding more experience. With the season they had in 2003, I'm gonna guess that theyre not quite ready to do that yet.

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05-30-2004, 10:41 AM
  #31
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oh my god, some of you are serious underrating dwayne roloson. he's been a top 5 goalie the last 2!!! seasons. i't wood take a good prospect or young nhl'er to pry him away from minnesota where he's outperformed manny fernandez by a great deal. think jeff jillson or maybe derek roy straight up.

if minny does indeed deal roloson, manny becomes the go-to guy with either holmqvist or cloutier backing him up. that's not a great duo but it's not awful either. maybe signing a guy like felix potvin as a back-up for a year is a good idea, until harding is ready for the back-up spot.

buffalo if dealing for roloson has 3 maybe 4 nhl quality goalies. trading biron is the thing to do and maybe toronto will bite. let noronen and miller battle out of the back-up spot with the big team.

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05-30-2004, 11:57 AM
  #32
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I suspect the Wild could afford Satan, and depending on when he becomes a UFA, I could see a Satan + a peice for Roloson deal.

If you're asking for what they'd be asking for not including Satan, perhaps something like Tallinder, Biron, and a draft pick for Roloson would be more appropriate

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05-30-2004, 12:44 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
Cite the article where Roloson said this. The only problem he had in Buffalo was getting enough PT, and he wasn't stupid enough to suggest he should have gotten more PT with Hasek in Buffalo. And if Hasek isn't in Buffalo now, there is nothing to suggest he wouldn't like playing in Buffalo.

Hasek was mid 30s in 1998 too. Did you want to deal him? Roloson handles the games where Minnesota's defense screws up.

Hasek was also a bad backup in Buffalo at one time.

You doubt he's a big upgrade? Who has the best save percentage over the past two years? When have you seen him play last? With Calgary?

You have no problem simply waiving Pyatt or Connolly, and you criticize me for dealing the older Kotalik, older Tallinder or Pominville?

The Sabres are the youngest team in the NHL. If you can dramatically improve their goaltending by dealing Kotalik (not in stretch run last year), Tallinder (Sabres have a glut of LD) or Pominville (not as good a prospect as Vanek, Roy, Paille, Pyatt, Connolly, so he gets lost in the numbers) you do it. And having a 34 year old goaltender is PERFECT for the Sabres situation because it gives Noronen and Miller more time to develop.
First off, iv never wanted to waive Pyatt or connelly, they piss me off cause their so god damn slow to develop, thats all.

the article was around the time of the all star game, quite frankly i dont care what you think so im not going to find it.

Roloson is 34 and more valuable to his team than he is on the open market. id rather take my chances with Biron.

Oh, and comparing Hasek to Roloson is just ridiculous. Hasek is a HOF goalie and Roloson is above average. Hasek sucked at 1 time sure. most goalies have. Roloson sucked for many many years here before being ditched.

i dont mind dealing Tallinder, Kotalik or Pomiville, infact im for it as long as we get a good defensive prospect in return. at least.

Roloson has been a league leading goalie, for sure. but like Brodeur, i think his a little overrated cause of his defensive system. not to say their aweful. i realise Brodeur is possibly the best goalie in the NHL today.

i realise you and i are never going to agree, im just explaining my view as words become easily twisted here.

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05-30-2004, 04:14 PM
  #34
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Yeah except we have really sucky defense and the Devils have a great defense.

 
Old
05-30-2004, 10:31 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
First off, iv never wanted to waive Pyatt or connelly, they piss me off cause their so god damn slow to develop, thats all.
You've said countless times that we should simply dump both of these guys. They are also several years younger than Kotalik or Tallinder. They aren't necessarily slow to develop. They are still very young.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
the article was around the time of the all star game, quite frankly i dont care what you think so im not going to find it.
Then don't make claims you can't back up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
Roloson is 34 and more valuable to his team than he is on the open market. id rather take my chances with Biron.
How did you come up with this baseless measurement?

And why would you rather take your chances with Biron? Roloson has the BEST save percentage in the NHL over the past two years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
Oh, and comparing Hasek to Roloson is just ridiculous. Hasek is a HOF goalie and Roloson is above average. Hasek sucked at 1 time sure. most goalies have. Roloson sucked for many many years here before being ditched.
I wasn't directly comparing Hasek to Roloson, I was showing you how silly your criteria eschewing mid 30 goaltenders who didn't go to the Cup as a starter was ridiculous.

Roloson simply didn't get any meaningful playing time until he got to Minnesota. After his 150th NHL, he has quite simply been dominant. Not just good, but great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
i dont mind dealing Tallinder, Kotalik or Pomiville, infact im for it as long as we get a good defensive prospect in return. at least.
How about the goaltender who has been the best in the league over the past two years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
Roloson has been a league leading goalie, for sure. but like Brodeur, i think his a little overrated cause of his defensive system. not to say their aweful. i realise Brodeur is possibly the best goalie in the NHL today.
A league leading goalie, but overrated? Save percentage doesn't lie, and it is a stat that is largely independent of the defensive system in front of the goalie.

Explain how Roloson's save percentage rose dramatically from .901 in his first year to .933 last year. If you say it is because of the system, you are ignoring reality. The shots given up by Minnesota has marginally increased over the past three years, but always in the neighborhood of 25-26 shots per game.

Brodeur, OTOH, is overrated. His save percentage in certain years has been mediocre, and his apologists depend on team stats like wins or GAA. His best attribute is his ability to soak up minutes. Did he deserve his Vezina? No.

2002-3
Roloson 23-16-8 2.00 .927
Brodeur 41-23-9 2.02 .914

Roloson played much better, but Brodeur gets the accolades.

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05-30-2004, 10:34 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I suspect the Wild could afford Satan, and depending on when he becomes a UFA, I could see a Satan + a peice for Roloson deal.

If you're asking for what they'd be asking for not including Satan, perhaps something like Tallinder, Biron, and a draft pick for Roloson would be more appropriate
Tallinder, Biron and a 3rd rounder for Roloson?

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05-30-2004, 10:37 PM
  #37
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The problem is the Wild have a gap in between when their youngsters come in and their old guys move out.

The other problem and I do agree that Roloson hasn't really played a full season, he always shares sometime with Fernandez (30-40 games a season), so it's hard to say if his sv% would fall a bit.

I would take Noronen + 1st for Roloson and Reitz

 
Old
05-30-2004, 10:59 PM
  #38
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Brodeur, OTOH, is overrated. His save percentage in certain years has been mediocre, and his apologists depend on team stats like wins or GAA. His best attribute is his ability to soak up minutes. Did he deserve his Vezina? No.
Because statistics are everything in Hockey.

Wake up bud. This isn't baseball. If you watched Brodeur every night over the past decade, you'll see he has consistantly been better than all of his opponents. He can play more games than any other goalie, and is the most clutch goalie possibly of all time.

You cannot have a high save percentage over 70+ games without facing a boatload of shots. The math is simply against you.

He will hold every major goalie record when he retires. He is the best Goalie in the NHL today and top 10 of all time.

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05-30-2004, 11:42 PM
  #39
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Why would Buffalo acquire Roloson? They are not in a position to contend, so what is the point of spending assets to acquire a 35 year old goaltender? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

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05-31-2004, 10:27 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
You've said countless times that we should simply dump both of these guys. They are also several years younger than Kotalik or Tallinder. They aren't necessarily slow to develop. They are still very young.



Then don't make claims you can't back up.



How did you come up with this baseless measurement?

And why would you rather take your chances with Biron? Roloson has the BEST save percentage in the NHL over the past two years.



I wasn't directly comparing Hasek to Roloson, I was showing you how silly your criteria eschewing mid 30 goaltenders who didn't go to the Cup as a starter was ridiculous.

Roloson simply didn't get any meaningful playing time until he got to Minnesota. After his 150th NHL, he has quite simply been dominant. Not just good, but great.



How about the goaltender who has been the best in the league over the past two years?



A league leading goalie, but overrated? Save percentage doesn't lie, and it is a stat that is largely independent of the defensive system in front of the goalie.

Explain how Roloson's save percentage rose dramatically from .901 in his first year to .933 last year. If you say it is because of the system, you are ignoring reality. The shots given up by Minnesota has marginally increased over the past three years, but always in the neighborhood of 25-26 shots per game.

Brodeur, OTOH, is overrated. His save percentage in certain years has been mediocre, and his apologists depend on team stats like wins or GAA. His best attribute is his ability to soak up minutes. Did he deserve his Vezina? No.

2002-3
Roloson 23-16-8 2.00 .927
Brodeur 41-23-9 2.02 .914

Roloson played much better, but Brodeur gets the accolades.
First off, i can make claims i cant back up. i know hwat i said was true.

Roloson will NOT achieve his stats here. i can garuntee that. I agree on your bit about Brodeur. iv been publicly hung by devils fans for hinting that before. I dont consider him a big game goalie like Biron. More a consistantly good goalie who rely's on his team to score enough. Like noronen. Except better. Hasek and Biron are Big game goalies. Dependable when it mattered. That's the sort of goalie we need when our 1 scoring line doesnt score.

Our offense is inconsistant. at best. And i dont think Roloson could have made 44 saves vs philly in january to give us a 1-1 tie. then again i dont think Roloson would have gone winless between November and december during the easiest streak of the season.

in short, i prefer big game goalies, like biron. Not consistantly good ones who wont make that extra effort when it matters. Trust me i tlike Roloson. i had him in my fantasy league and i never lost goaltending stats. i kjust dont think his our answer.


Oh to the guy who said Roloson is better than luongo:

Luongo makes 30+ saves every game and has faced the highest shot could ever by a goaltender. His had one of the highest save percentages and stomped on our offense a couple of times. His the best goaltender in the NHL today. Brodeur, step aside.

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05-31-2004, 12:20 PM
  #41
LALALALALALAFONTAINE
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Originally Posted by DownFromNJ
Because statistics are everything in Hockey.

Wake up bud. This isn't baseball. If you watched Brodeur every night over the past decade, you'll see he has consistantly been better than all of his opponents. He can play more games than any other goalie, and is the most clutch goalie possibly of all time.

You cannot have a high save percentage over 70+ games without facing a boatload of shots. The math is simply against you.

He will hold every major goalie record when he retires. He is the best Goalie in the NHL today and top 10 of all time.
I watched Brodeur this year giving up lots of bad goals.

You cannot have a high save percentage over 70+ games without facing a boatload of shots? What the hell does this mean? You can have a high save percentage facing 1 shot in a season or 2,500 shots in a season. Math doesn't lie. And if you argue that there is a bias in favor of goalies who see a lot of shots, you are quite simply wrong:

The bottom 5 teams giving up the most shots (rank in parentheses):
Florida 34.5 .922 (3)
Pittsburgh 33.2 .889 (30)
Columbus 32.0 .909 (13)
Washington 31.5 .902 (25)
Chicago 30.7 .897 (28)

The top 5 teams who gave up the fewest shots:
Dallas 23.2 .908 (14)
New Jersey 24.4 .918 (5)
Ottawa 24.9 .907 (16)
TB 25.4 .908 (15)
Calgary 25.5 .916 (7)

3 of the worst 6 goaltenders were on team giving up the most shots. If anything, it suggests a bias opposite from what you suggest, but Roberto Luongo also kills that idea. Other things to consider are Kolzig's lesser performance. According to you, his save percentage should have improved when Washington gave up 31.5 shots per game as opposed to 29.9. Why didn't it? Kolzig simply played worse.

He will hold every major goalie record when he retires? How about the ones that matter, like best save percentage or most Vezinas won? How about Hart Trophies by a goaltender? He's not even close. Best goalie in the past decade? Absolutely laughable and ridiculous. Brodeur has one Vezina. Hasek has SIX. Brodeur has ZERO Hart Trophies. Hasek has two.


Last edited by LALALALALALAFONTAINE: 05-31-2004 at 12:50 PM.
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Old
05-31-2004, 12:34 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Why would Buffalo acquire Roloson? They are not in a position to contend, so what is the point of spending assets to acquire a 35 year old goaltender? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
He's 34, not 35. Given Buffalo's goaltenders, that is a PERFECT age for an acquisition. One of the problems with our goaltending is that we have similarly aged goaltenders, and that slows down everyone's development, except Biron's. If Roloson has 2 more years like his last two, that works. He's really only as old as his contract is long. In two years, one of Noronen or Miller will be ready to take over in all likelihood.

Who says Buffalo's not ready to contend? Over the past couple of years, we've seen Calgary, Anaheim, Carolina and Minnesota contend. The common denominator? Goaltending. You can have a great playoff run by sneaking into the 7th spot and getting excellent goaltending.

Second, even without Roloson, the immediate future looks pretty bright for Buffalo if Zhitnik is re-signed. A 9th place team, yes, but also the youngest team in the league.

Third, Buffalo's team goaltending was 21st. Minnesota's was the best. That represents a tremendous improvement, even if Buffalo moves into the top third. Suddenly, that 85 point team is a 95 point team, ignoring the other improvements that typically come from young players maturing.

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05-31-2004, 12:37 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by thestonedkoala
The problem is the Wild have a gap in between when their youngsters come in and their old guys move out.

The other problem and I do agree that Roloson hasn't really played a full season, he always shares sometime with Fernandez (30-40 games a season), so it's hard to say if his sv% would fall a bit.

I would take Noronen + 1st for Roloson and Reitz
Buffalo doesn't need RD unless we are talking about top 2 RD. We actually have a glut of bottom pairing RD - Fitzpatrick, Brown, Patrick, Jillson (if he slips).

How about Biron, McKee and Kotalik for Roloson and Mitchell?

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05-31-2004, 12:47 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by SabresRule
First off, i can make claims i cant back up. i know hwat i said was true.
If you can't back it up, how do we know it's true? Further, in what context is it true? I can probably find a quote that Peca "doesn't like Buffalo" either. I know he likes the city, since he lives in Buffalo in the offseason. I know he loves the coaching staff, since he publicly stated that on WGR. What relevance would Roloson not liking having to back up Hasek have now?

Your credibility in judging players is suspect, since you don't actually watch them play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
Roloson will NOT achieve his stats here. i can garuntee that. I agree on your bit about Brodeur. iv been publicly hung by devils fans for hinting that before. I dont consider him a big game goalie like Biron. More a consistantly good goalie who rely's on his team to score enough. Like noronen. Except better. Hasek and Biron are Big game goalies. Dependable when it mattered. That's the sort of goalie we need when our 1 scoring line doesnt score.
How can you guarantee that? That's simply a ridiculous statement.

How does Noronen rely on his team to score enough? He plays on the same team as Biron and Biron had better goal support.

Where was Biron when it mattered against Boston giving up shorthanded goals on a shot from Boston's own end?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
Our offense is inconsistant. at best. And i dont think Roloson could have made 44 saves vs philly in january to give us a 1-1 tie. then again i dont think Roloson would have gone winless between November and december during the easiest streak of the season.
I happened to see Roloson make 44 saves against Calgary in December
http://www.sportsline.com/nhl/gamece...031229_MIN@CGY

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
in short, i prefer big game goalies, like biron. Not consistantly good ones who wont make that extra effort when it matters. Trust me i tlike Roloson. i had him in my fantasy league and i never lost goaltending stats. i kjust dont think his our answer.
Again with assertions. Biron will make the extra effort when it matters, but Roloson won't? Ridiculous. Big game goalies? How many big games has Biron played in, let alone won? ZERO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
Oh to the guy who said Roloson is better than luongo:

Luongo makes 30+ saves every game and has faced the highest shot could ever by a goaltender. His had one of the highest save percentages and stomped on our offense a couple of times. His the best goaltender in the NHL today. Brodeur, step aside.
Brodeur can't step aside, because he's never been the best.

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05-31-2004, 01:59 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
Big game goalies? How many big games has Biron played in, let alone won? ZERO.
Heh that's exactly what I was going to say.. How is Biron a "big game" goaltender and yet Brodeur is not? He hasn't even made the playoffs yet in the NHL so I find the label a little misleading..

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05-31-2004, 02:48 PM
  #46
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No dice, I like Mitchell a lot more than Reitz.

 
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05-31-2004, 03:13 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebral
Heh that's exactly what I was going to say.. How is Biron a "big game" goaltender and yet Brodeur is not? He hasn't even made the playoffs yet in the NHL so I find the label a little misleading..
Well down the stretch run, and in tough games against hard opposistion. not necessarily playoffs.

Roloson is overrated here. all he is is a good goalie. Like Biron could be. I prefer biron.

i like Youth. i wouldnt trade for a 34 year old goalie. you can only lose that deal.

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05-31-2004, 03:56 PM
  #48
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So you must have been very happy when we dealt a goaltender who was older than 34 in Hasek.

How the hell is Roloson overrated? You are saying you prefer Biron to Roloson.

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05-31-2004, 03:59 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by thestonedkoala
No dice, I like Mitchell a lot more than Reitz.
Understandably so, too.

What would it take to get just Roloson if Biron was one of the pieces going back to the Wild?

What would it take to get Roloson and Mitchell if Biron was one of the pieces going back to the Wild. McKee could also be included in this deal.

Kotalik, Pominville and Tallinder could also be included in either deal.

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05-31-2004, 04:22 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
What would it take to get just Roloson if Biron was one of the pieces going back to the Wild?

What would it take to get Roloson and Mitchell if Biron was one of the pieces going back to the Wild.
IMO Roloson right now is a better goaltender than Biron but Biron is much younger and since the Wild don't really have an amazing goalie prospect I would probally take Biron for Roloson straight up. Saying that I think that trade would be slightly tilted in Buffalo's favor maybe a 2nd or 3rd would even it out.

As for Roloson and Mitchell, for me it would take something like this:

TO BUF
Dwayne Roloson
Willie Mitchell

TO MIN:
Martin Biron
2nd Round Pick
Jason Pominville

I'm not very familar with Buffalo's prospects other than Vanek and Miller but Pominville looks like a sniper and a goal scorer with 2nd line potental which is what the wild are looking for.

Also I love Mitchell and it would take alot to take him away if I were a GM so this might be an overpayment on Buffalo's part(depends on how good Pominville is).

barnabyrules is offline  
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