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Old
05-28-2004, 08:51 PM
  #26
Enoch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
The ironic thing is all the Flames fans complaining about dirty hits, when a major part of the Flames success is creating fear in the other team of their hitting and forchecking, no small component of which is boarding, crosschecking, slashing and running the goalie. For the three previous series many Flames fans here have laughed at posters complaining about these kinds of things, but now that in one game they get a fraction of what they've handed out, there's all kinds of comlaints being issued. Get real. No one gives a rats behind for a cheap shot on Ville or any of his compatriats.


Kudos to those Flames fans that recognize this as well. (Splatman)

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Old
05-28-2004, 10:42 PM
  #27
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Montador still has the dirtiest deliberate shot

Stillman got called for what he did, left his feet to board a guy in a fast play. Montador crosschecked Lecaviler on the ice in the neck less than 5 minutes into game 1. Vinny is still po'd and I hope Jarome looks him up. Actually sending Ferrence after Stillman was pretty cheap, maybe Sarich will come after Gelinas who has just as many leaving his feet and cross checking from behind as Stillman.

Montador started all the crap and I bet the Lightning will end it when they take the cup home. Sutter wants Oliwa type players who would be abysmal in the Cup, but would reconfirm what is typical of Calgary all yr. Iginla will take every opportunity to take a cheap shot and know he is a star and protected. If that comes to an end then Calgary will really be howling. Sutter has been amazingly calm, but that may change when ability to skate away from cheap shots comes to pass in Calgary.

The heck of it is... Roy and Simon can both play and skate the whole game package. I hope they are not reduced to pugilists on command. Calgary cannot get away from crap at the end of a game, it is just part of them and their coaching style. May come back to haunt them this early in the series, much more to their advantage in regular season when they don't have recent memories motivating the team they took their shots at.

Lightning have had to deal with hits causing concussions, see Lukowich missing 2 Philly games so we as fans know what head hunting is and how damaging it can be. Gotta admit that Calgary has targeted Marty for running and Niemenen is the likely agent. Vile Wille will be in the top 5 of dirty players in the league by any player vote. Wonder why Calgary doesn't have Marchment as the perfect partner?

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Old
05-29-2004, 12:14 AM
  #28
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I don't know about anyone else, but I would love to see Regehr just pick St. Louis up with one arm and skate around with him for an entire shift. It would be called holding, obviously -- but it would be so hilarious that it would be worth it.

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Old
05-29-2004, 06:09 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
Actually, neither of these teams are really what you would call "cheap". Certainly Simon and of coure Ville will do some dirty stuff, but I'm sure that Roy and Dingman aren't shy about doing what they think is necessary either.

Calgary plays a much more physical style of hockey with lots of forcheck. Well, it's been extremely successful for them and they aren't going to stop now. I'm happy to see the Bolts show a bit of an edge as it will make the Flames think twice about their game. Any and all viscious hits should be called and penalized. The rest of the stuff they are letting go, so I guess that should continue.
Your're second paragraph is great. Don't get me wrong I like physical CLEAN hockey. Calgary is a physical team which is why I've watched them throughout the playoffs. I like that brand of hockey. What I don't like is seeing 6-8 players in the playoffs diminished or knocked out due to concussions. The reason some find this league a joke is that there are all of these rules and because of some "code" North American officials have to ignore the rules when they want and call them at other times. Sorry, but this is holding the game back. If need be, fire all of the current officials and bring in guys from the minors and international officials that will actually make the calls.

I have to agree that I didn't see anything wrong with Regher's play on St. Louis, in fact I thought it was text book. If he had picked him up and spiked him, that would have been a different story, but he shoved him to the boards to separate him from the puck. The fighting and cross-checks were payback for calls that were not made (see above) and also to send a message.

I think we're in for a great series, but I wish the 4 pylons that get in the way of the hockey game actually blew the whistle when they are supposed to.

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Old
05-29-2004, 10:08 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher
I haven't seen any Flames throw a jumping elbow straight to a guy's head. You might want to point out that exact play for us if you're going to claim both teams are doing it.
You might want to watch some actual games and take your flame glasses off for a minute. Every team in the playoffs has had there fair share of cheap hits, trying to say the flames haven't is ignorance!

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Old
05-29-2004, 12:27 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frightning lightning
The heck of it is... Roy and Simon can both play and skate the whole game package. I hope they are not reduced to pugilists on command. Calgary cannot get away from crap at the end of a game, it is just part of them and their coaching style. May come back to haunt them this early in the series, much more to their advantage in regular season when they don't have recent memories motivating the team they took their shots at.
Umm, Roy brings the "whole game package"? Err no. His carreer high in points has been passed by simon ten times. Roy isnt an offensive threat, isnt a defensive asset, and is only really around to fight. And he doesnt do that particularaly well either.

As for the Flames punchups coming back to haunt them, you evidently havent watched the Flames play.

Game 3 vs Vancouver, Ohlund runs Iggy from behind. Iginla beats him down for it, then goes on to Dominate the Canucks right out of the playoffs.

Game 2 vs Detroit, Iginla and Hatcher go at it. Iggy scores a goal the next game out, then sets up the winners in both games five and six.

Game 4 vs Detroit, Niemenen runs Joseph. The Red Wings respond by failing to score a goal in their last 140 minutes of this season.

Game 3 vs San Jose, The Flames go after Korolyuk for hotdogging. Korolyuk doesnt record a single point in the three games that followed.

We'll see if Tampa reacts any different. But all of these incidents have turned out in the Flames favour to this point.

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Old
05-29-2004, 01:20 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frightning lightning
Actually sending Ferrence after Stillman was pretty cheap, maybe Sarich will come after Gelinas who has just as many leaving his feet and cross checking from behind as Stillman.
This arguing is really ridiculous, but come on now, Calgary didn't send Ference out to attack Stillman, Calgary doesn't send Ference out to attack anyone.

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Old
05-29-2004, 01:44 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_TheGreat
You might want to watch some actual games and take your flame glasses off for a minute. Every team in the playoffs has had there fair share of cheap hits, trying to say the flames haven't is ignorance!
... well, do we have a play? And any proof of it?

Seems pretty silent on Tampa's side, no media reports of such, and no proof in general.

Like I said, the Flames to turn to goonery when the score gets out of hand, and they do want their pound of flesh to retaliate on previous plays (Korolyuk) or cheapshots (ie. Stillman, for one). However, from what I see, the Flames are settlinging it fists and fights, and not elbow's and sticks. This incident has hapened only TWICE this playoffs, and 3 times over the coarse of the entire season... I don't see it as a big deal. It's part of the game man, we saw it in the Avs-Wings series a few years ago (which IMO has been the best series I have ever seen) and it happens throughout the league.

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Old
05-29-2004, 01:46 PM
  #34
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Splatman, Niemenen Running Joseph was a VERY cheap play, as one example....

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Old
05-29-2004, 01:49 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil
Splatman, Niemenen Running Joseph was a VERY cheap play, as one example....
You know what, I agree with you, I'll give you that.

In fact, I'm sure Niemenen has delievered more cheap shots than just the one on Joseph.

He doesn't play by the rulebook for sure, but you know what? When someone returns the favour (aka. Nabokov kicking Niemenen in the head) I don't ***** (if there's no injury) because if he wants to play that game, he's going to get some of it back.

But a guy like Nilson doesn't play like that. Or Donovan. In fact, Niemenen is the only one that does that, and every team has their Niemenen. Ruutu and Cookie for Vancouver, Tootoo for Nashville, to name a few.

But at least the scores were settled with fists, right? That's my point, because we're talking about BRAWLS here.

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Old
05-29-2004, 01:56 PM
  #36
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Anyone else think that Stillman's elbow was blown way out of proportion? Sure he elbowed Nilsson, but was the impact serious enough to take him out of the game? Flames fans need a wakeup call. They try to justify why when their team cheapshots opponents (Korolyuk hotdogging? Has it occored to you that he merely wanted to make a pass to his winger? I forget who it was), but cry bloody murder when something as insignificant as an elbow occurs against their team?? I also find it funny that they didn't whine when Tim Taylor left his feet and elbowed a Flames player (Nieminen? or was it Ference?) and later that night admitted to wanting to hurt him.

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Old
05-29-2004, 02:14 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstreim
Anyone else think that Stillman's elbow was blown way out of proportion? Sure he elbowed Nilsson, but was the impact serious enough to take him out of the game? Flames fans need a wakeup call. They try to justify why when their team cheapshots opponents (Korolyuk hotdogging? Has it occored to you that he merely wanted to make a pass to his winger? I forget who it was), but cry bloody murder when something as insignificant as an elbow occurs against their team?? I also find it funny that they didn't whine when Tim Taylor left his feet and elbowed a Flames player (Nieminen? or was it Ference?) and later that night admitted to wanting to hurt him.
Not at all

Did you see the extent of Nilson's injury? The gashes and cuts to his ear? Think of the potential for a serious, career ending concussion.

And as I said before, even Koroyluk's teammate Brad Stuart said, "I can see where they're coming from." Even a SJ player and Koroyluk's teammate can understand why the Flames were pissed, and THAT really says something.

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Old
05-29-2004, 04:26 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
... well, do we have a play? And any proof of it?

Seems pretty silent on Tampa's side, no media reports of such, and no proof in general.

Because we aren't whiners. Hell, for a city that supposivly doesn't know **** about hockey; we're doing a pretty good job of understanding whats going on. Its the playoffs, thats going to happen. If you looked at the games objectivly you would agree, I'm screaming for blood after the end of game 2.

The Lightning did not purposely end game 1 with raw play, even in defeat they completely outclassed Calgary by not tracking a player to the corner of the rink and mugging him as time expired.

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Old
05-29-2004, 04:52 PM
  #39
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The biggest joke is Flames fans complaining about Niemminen getting suspended for "simply making contact" with a goalie.

Face it....he CHARGED the goalie. He took several strides right into goaltender and made absolutely no attempt to do anything other than take out the guy between the pipes.

I'm not trying to rag on Ville as a whole. He's a dirty sonofagun, but there are many, many other players in the league just like him. The reality is he is effective. But that one play, anything so blatant with running the goalie, is a place even pests shouldn't go. They should at lesat make half an effort to disguise it anyhow.

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Old
05-29-2004, 05:05 PM
  #40
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Have you seen Nilson's ear? that thing is mangled from Stillman's hit

and Nieminen was responsible for his actions, he fought Marshall in game 4? of the San Jose series. Of course he got his ass fairly handed to him but you don't see Ruutu out there fighting. Very few people are defending his runing of Joseph, it was cheap as heck and effective as well.

Quote:
The Lightning did not purposely end game 1 with raw play, even in defeat they completely outclassed Calgary by not tracking a player to the corner of the rink and mugging him as time expired.
watch the scrum. Roy started it

it's playoff hockey. Why are you all so fixated on class? there is going to very little of it from every team. Even the flames themselves admit that they are sore losers and thats a good thing because being mad and angry at losing just makes you play that little bit harder the next game

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Old
05-29-2004, 05:08 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sehnsucht
watch the scrum. Roy started it
Explain, please.

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Old
05-29-2004, 05:11 PM
  #42
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Iginla and Gelinas checked him and he went after them

of course I'm seeing this through red, yellow, and orange tinted glasses but it wasn't like Iginla took out a knife and started stabbing poor innocent Andre. He had a part in it as well

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Old
05-29-2004, 05:16 PM
  #43
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So when Roy was waiting for the clock to run down and TWO Flames make no effort at all to avoid causing a brawl at the end of a game, Roy still somehow started it?

You're not serious are you? Seriously. I don't think you can honestly be serious.

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Old
05-29-2004, 05:24 PM
  #44
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Meanwhile, as Kubina and Sydor are lazily passing the puck back and forth behind their own net waiting for the last 10 seconds to run off the clock, Kobasew cross-checks Kubina (who, admittedly, then proceeded to nearly choke the life out of the rookie). And I guess Kubina started that, too, right?

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Old
05-29-2004, 05:37 PM
  #45
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Want to know why players make cheap hits? It has nothing to do with the fact that they are on a particular team (players on EVERY team in the NHL do it), and every thing to do with the fact that hockey players have an incredible lack of respect for each other. I do not care that this is the playoffs, and that it is more "intense" than the regular season, things like Hatchers elbow on Lombardi (just one example of many) are unacceptable. There are several reasons like crap like this exists in the NHL, here they are (in no particular order).

-player education- players are not educated enough or properly about the dangers of cross checking, slashing, boarding, elbowing and other cheap stuff. The NHL should make all the players in the league have to listen to a former player talking about health problems they have due to another player taking a cheapshot at them. There are certainly many former NHL players who live in pain due to some idiot....

-Inconsistant league policies and reffereeing- League suspensions are too light and too inconsistantly inforced. This is probably the NHLPA's fault as much as it is the leagues. In addition to this, the refs are horribly inconsistant in the NHL. Some call too many penalties, some too few. The first and second games of the NHL finals were refereed completely differently, which is bad. You need consistancy in the refereeing. Generally, I think in international hockey they call too many penalties, in the NHL too few.

-General outlook on violence within the league- coachs encourage violence by putting goons on the ice, solely to start fights (Sutter and Hitchcock especially). Players think it is a bad thing to speak out against players on their own team (which points to a weakness of charecter). How many Vancouver Canucks condemned Todd Bertuzzi for his mugging of Steve Moore??? None that I can remember. Some even implied that he was going through a tough time, and that we should feel sorry for him... BS. The bottom line is that unreasonable violence is accepted within the NHL, and this is a problem the League (the players, coachs and managment) has to solve, the fans can not do it for them...

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Old
05-29-2004, 11:31 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murderworks
So when Roy was waiting for the clock to run down and TWO Flames make no effort at all to avoid causing a brawl at the end of a game, Roy still somehow started it?

You're not serious are you? Seriously. I don't think you can honestly be serious.
Oh please. It's called a bodycheck.

I know you are new to the game and all, and evidently dont understand hockey very well yet, but bodychecking is legal.

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Old
05-29-2004, 11:44 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakeeye
Oh please. It's called a bodycheck.

I know you are new to the game and all, and evidently dont understand hockey very well yet, but bodychecking is legal.

Doubleteamed jumping a non puck carrier is last time i check it has NEVER been a legal bodycheck. Perhaps it is legal in some pee wee league but i doubt it.

so you would enjoy and think it is good hockey if Roy and Dingman doubleteam jumps lets say Iginla. You know what they say about the Sword and that it having 2 edges.

I am still trying thru my memory to find out if there has been any dirtier team in the SCF than this years Calgary and i cant find one in the modern era.

The Philly's of the 70's could be made a case for it but NHL hockey being aired in Sweden at that time where basically non existant so i will not pass judgement on that.

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Old
05-29-2004, 11:47 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by joeminus
Explain, please.

I am sure they have VCR's that move backwards so it looks like something else, thats all i can say, since they also claimed Regher where skating BACKWARDS when he boarded Rusty.

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Old
05-29-2004, 11:50 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountie
The biggest joke is Flames fans complaining about Niemminen getting suspended for "simply making contact" with a goalie.

Face it....he CHARGED the goalie. He took several strides right into goaltender and made absolutely no attempt to do anything other than take out the guy between the pipes.

I'm not trying to rag on Ville as a whole. He's a dirty sonofagun, but there are many, many other players in the league just like him. The reality is he is effective. But that one play, anything so blatant with running the goalie, is a place even pests shouldn't go. They should at lesat make half an effort to disguise it anyhow.
Nieminen might finally have found a home where he feels truly at home.

I guess it is hard to disguise all of it since it is the gameplan.

Pretty sad that a goonsquad should even be in a position where they can win a cup.

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Old
05-29-2004, 11:53 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedish Bolt Fan
Doubleteamed jumping a non puck carrier is last time i check it has NEVER been a legal bodycheck. Perhaps it is legal in some pee wee league but i doubt it.

so you would enjoy and think it is good hockey if Roy and Dingman doubleteam jumps lets say Iginla. You know what they say about the Sword and that it having 2 edges.

I am still trying thru my memory to find out if there has been any dirtier team in the SCF than this years Calgary and i cant find one in the modern era.

The Philly's of the 70's could be made a case for it but NHL hockey being aired in Sweden at that time where basically non existant so i will not pass judgement on that.
In the SCF? Tampa Bay, easily. Numerous attempts to injure. Attempt to injure is dirtier than fighting.

How would I react if Iginla had the puck and two players hit him? I wouldnt at all. You see, I understand hockey, and I know that bodychecking is legal. Even if two players hit you at the same time. The way the officials were calling that game in the third - especially against Calgary - The Flames most defintely would have been penalized if anything was illegal about the check.

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