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BUF/NYI/TOR (Kaberle to Buffalo, Pominville to NYI)

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Old
08-09-2010, 12:35 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by GrierIsGod123 View Post
WRONG, show some examples smart guy. Oh, and Pominville does have an 80 point season under his belt, in which he subsequently signed his current contract.
in chapins defense, have you ever heard of Ryan Getzlaf, and just because Pominville as an outlier on his career, barely scraped 80 once doesnt make him an 80 point player. since Pominville usually plays a full 82 game season and is consistently in the mid 60's, his salary clearly is on the high side for his production.

and that issue would be exacerbated on the island, where his totals would most likely go down, making his salary even less in line with his production which despite his overall team play which is excellent, would become a problem

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08-09-2010, 01:18 PM
  #77
Armond White
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Whatever his pros and cons are, the money he's getting is pretty much what you pay a fairly consistant 80-90 point scorer, something he isn't (yet).
Here are the 10 forwards that scored between 80 and 90 points last year, and their cap hits.

Joe Thornton, 89 points, 7.2 million
Patrick Kane, 88 points, 6.3 million
Marian Gaborik, 86 points, 7.5 million
Ilya Kovalchuk, 85 points, ----
Daniel Sedin, 85 points, 6.1 million
Alexander Semin, 84 points, 6.0 million
Patrick Marleau, 83 points, 6.9 million
Dany Heatley, 82 points, 7.5 million
Zach Parise, 82 points, 3.125 million
Anze Kopitar, 81 points, 6.8 million

Parise is a consistent 80-90 point player nearing restricted free agency, and I'll be damned if he signs for 5.3 million. Pominville might not be worth 5.3 million, but if he hit free agency today, somebody would sign him to a long-term deal worth between 4 and 5 million. He's about one million overpaid.

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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
since Pominville usually plays a full 82 game season and is consistently in the mid 60's, his salary clearly is on the high side for his production.
I love that his durability is being used to debase him here. Now if he scored a point per game but missed two months most years, then he'd be worth Havlat money!

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08-09-2010, 01:33 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
in chapins defense, have you ever heard of Ryan Getzlaf, and just because Pominville as an outlier on his career, barely scraped 80 once doesnt make him an 80 point player. since Pominville usually plays a full 82 game season and is consistently in the mid 60's, his salary clearly is on the high side for his production.

and that issue would be exacerbated on the island, where his totals would most likely go down, making his salary even less in line with his production which despite his overall team play which is excellent, would become a problem
Getzlaf is on his second contract, Pominville his third. If Getzlaf's deal bought more UFA years, it's likely his hit would be higher.

So that's one guy. Perry of course is another. So beyond those two... who else are we hanging our hats on as "consistent 80 point players"? Parise? Argueably the best contract in hockey and he's not yet bought any UFA years -- his next deal however will see him getting paid.

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08-09-2010, 02:24 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Leonard Washington View Post
Pominville, Stafford, and a 1st for a rental and hunter? I'm gonna pass.
Wow, I can't believe all of the Buffalo fans who don't think too highly of Kaberle's value. Sure he has one year left on his contract but it's at $4.25m which is a discount compared to other D-men of his calibre. As for calling him a "rental", the last time I check a "rental" wasn't a guy who plays a full season in one city.

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08-09-2010, 02:34 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by HyeDray View Post
As an Isles fan, I am mixed on this deal.
It seems like the Isles give up a bit much and I would like to hold on to Blake Kessel he has made real strides. Hunter is a solid guy as well, but you have to give to get.
Are you F-ing kidding me WTF are you giving up?

You guys make out like Bandits.

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08-09-2010, 02:44 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Canadian Game View Post
Wow, I can't believe all of the Buffalo fans who don't think too highly of Kaberle's value. Sure he has one year left on his contract but it's at $4.25m which is a discount compared to other D-men of his calibre. As for calling him a "rental", the last time I check a "rental" wasn't a guy who plays a full season in one city.
It's a 1 year rental.

Seriously though, why wouldn't Kaberle test the open market next year when he has the chance? Someone will overpay, and he'll have a job somewhere of his choosing.

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08-09-2010, 03:22 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Armond White View Post
I love that his durability is being used to debase him here. Now if he scored a point per game but missed two months most years, then he'd be worth Havlat money!
Im not debasing him as a player, Im debasing the notion that hes an 80 point player, if you were to say hes a 60-70 point player and based your argument as such, we'd have no problem. Your whole argument is based on a statistical outlier. Thats what im debasing.

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Originally Posted by Armond White View Post
Here are the 10 forwards that scored between 80 and 90 points last year, and their cap hits.
pominville had 62 points last year, your building a case built on smoke and mirrors, do the same breakdown among 62 point scorers and you find that Pominville is grossly overpaid


Jussi Jokinen, LW 1,500,000
Antoine Vermette, C 3,000,000
Wojtek Wolski, LW 3,100,000
Tim Connolly, C 4,500,000
Bobby Ryan, RW 1,921,667
Chris Stewart, RW 850,000
Dustin Penner, LW 4,250,000
Kristian Huselius, LW 4,750,000
Mike Richards, C 5,750,000
Jason Pominville, RW 5,300,000

that grouping of 62-65 point scorers averages $3,392,166 therefore Pominville is overpaid by closer to basically 1.9M off last years production. even taking out Stewart, who is a statistical anonomaly the Average is 3,674,629 which makes him overpaid by 1.6M

yet my argument is that he wouldnt put up even 62 points on the Islanders 2nd line, (Which is where he would logically play) making his contract even more outlandish in terms of his production. Would he improve us ? yes most certainly. but The cost in terms of finances and players is prohibitive and certainly not wise


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08-09-2010, 03:52 PM
  #83
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As someone already mentioned, I'd rather have Pominville for Kaberle straight up.

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08-09-2010, 04:14 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post



pominville had 62 points last year, your building a case built on smoke and mirrors, do the same breakdown among 62 point scorers and you find that Pominville is grossly overpaid


Jussi Jokinen, LW 1,500,000
Antoine Vermette, C 3,000,000
Wojtek Wolski, LW 3,100,000
Tim Connolly, C 4,500,000
Bobby Ryan, RW 1,921,667
Chris Stewart, RW 850,000
Dustin Penner, LW 4,250,000
Kristian Huselius, LW 4,750,000
Mike Richards, C 5,750,000
Jason Pominville, RW 5,300,000

that grouping of 62-65 point scorers averages $3,392,166 therefore Pominville is overpaid by closer to basically 1.9M off last years production. even taking out Stewart, who is a statistical anonomaly the Average is 3,674,629 which makes him overpaid by 1.6M

yet my argument is that he wouldnt put up even 62 points on the Islanders 2nd line, (Which is where he would logically play) making his contract even more outlandish in terms of his production. Would he improve us ? yes most certainly. but The cost in terms of finances and players is prohibitive and certainly not wise
You sure love to pick and choose meaningless points and make stupid assumptions.If Poms joined a basement team he would score more, because he'd be given more ice-time seeing as he would be on a garbage team.


Let's go through your "sweet" list.

# of 60 point seasons:

Vermette-1
Jokinen-1
Wolski-1
Connolly-1
Ryan-1
Stewart-1
Penner-1
Huselius-3
Richards-3
Pominville-4

So let's see, Poms has the most 60+ point seasons, is at the top with Richards in terms of 2 way play and is also the most durable.Good job adding a ELC into there champ, you really love twisting numbers don't ya, you should work for the IRS.Richards makes 5.7 over 12 years, really good comparison

Drop the whole vendetta, Poms would be your best player if you got him for a 4th liner and a 2nd round pick.Your team hasn't had a 70 point scorer in nearly 10 YEARS

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Old
08-09-2010, 04:41 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by GrierIsGod123 View Post
WRONG, show some examples smart guy. Oh, and Pominville does have an 80 point season under his belt, in which he subsequently signed his current contract.
Whereas thanks to Armond Right, I'm happy to admit that I seem to have misjudged what the few persistent 80-90 point guys are actually earning (and in my humble opinion, most of them are getting too much - and Armond's list consisted of guys who scored 80-90 points this past season, several of which having done it for the first time while several others rarely do it, i.e. not persistently), I do think you should take note that I wrote the "money he's [Pominville] getting is pretty much what you pay a fairly consistent 80-90 point scorer".

I'm sure you'll agree that this doesn't describe a guy who has scored exactly 80 points once in 5 seasons, having not even reached 70 in any of the others.

Of course, everyone knows how hard it is to keep certain guys in market like Buffalo's. They'll kind of be damned to overpaying certain components that they absolutely wish to keep in order to prevent them from being gobbled up by bigger fish.

I heavily feel that's what they did in Pominville's case, something precious few other teams might have done.


Last edited by Chapin Landvogt: 08-09-2010 at 04:47 PM.
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08-09-2010, 04:57 PM
  #86
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Buffalo gets owned. Not going to lie. I like it for the Leafs though

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08-09-2010, 05:59 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
Im not debasing him as a player, Im debasing the notion that hes an 80 point player, if you were to say hes a 60-70 point player and based your argument as such, we'd have no problem. Your whole argument is based on a statistical outlier. Thats what im debasing.
I never said Pominville is an 80-point player. Here are all my posts in this thread. You said Pominville would suck as an Islander, and I pointed out the idiocy of this claim.

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Originally Posted by Armond White View Post
Yeah. Buffalo could have used Kaberle. Then they signed two defensemen.
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Originally Posted by Armond White View Post
Only on HF can you take a top 6 27-year-old winger, trade him to a terrible team, place him on the top line, give him more ice time, and predict that he regresses to his 57-game rookie season goal total.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armond White View Post
Here are the 10 forwards that scored between 80 and 90 points last year, and their cap hits.
...
Parise is a consistent 80-90 point player nearing restricted free agency, and I'll be damned if he signs for 5.3 million. Pominville might not be worth 5.3 million, but if he hit free agency today, somebody would sign him to a long-term deal worth between 4 and 5 million. He's about one million overpaid.

I love that his durability is being used to debase him here. Now if he scored a point per game but missed two months most years, then he'd be worth Havlat money!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Isles_Guy
pominville had 62 points last year, your building a case built on smoke and mirrors, do the same breakdown among 62 point scorers and you find that Pominville is grossly overpaid


Jussi Jokinen, LW 1,500,000
Antoine Vermette, C 3,000,000
Wojtek Wolski, LW 3,100,000
Tim Connolly, C 4,500,000
Bobby Ryan, RW 1,921,667
Chris Stewart, RW 850,000
Dustin Penner, LW 4,250,000
Kristian Huselius, LW 4,750,000
Mike Richards, C 5,750,000
Jason Pominville, RW 5,300,000

that grouping of 62-65 point scorers averages $3,392,166 therefore Pominville is overpaid by closer to basically 1.9M off last years production. even taking out Stewart, who is a statistical anonomaly the Average is 3,674,629 which makes him overpaid by 1.6M

yet my argument is that he wouldnt put up even 62 points on the Islanders 2nd line, (Which is where he would logically play) making his contract even more outlandish in terms of his production. Would he improve us ? yes most certainly. but The cost in terms of finances and players is prohibitive and certainly not wise
Wow. You're really reaching there. First, you break off the list at an arbitrary point. Why didn't you include Andy McDonald's 57 points at 4.7 million? Or Phil Kessel's 5.4 million for 55 points?

Second, you ignore the importance of a player's age. Wolski is 24. Ryan is 23. Stewart is 22. I'd go on about this if I didn't notice that, third, you don't even have the numbers right. Wolski will make 3.6 next year (cap hit of 3.8). Vermette will make 3.75. You used contract numbers based on their performances before they became 60-point players. I'm sure you're going to say how not stupid this is, but then why are you using Pominville's 5.3 instead of the 4.5 he actually made last year? You used Wolski's and Vermette's 2009-10 salary, but not the 2009-10 salary of the player you want to rip? I'm not surprised to see this coming from a guy who has been around this site for eight years and still can't get your/you're right.

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08-09-2010, 06:03 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
You sure love to pick and choose meaningless points and make stupid assumptions.If Poms joined a basement team he would score more, because he'd be given more ice-time seeing as he would be on a garbage team.


Let's go through your "sweet" list.

# of 60 point seasons:

Vermette-1
Jokinen-1
Wolski-1
Connolly-1
Ryan-1
Stewart-1
Penner-1
Huselius-3
Richards-3
Pominville-4

So let's see, Poms has the most 60+ point seasons, is at the top with Richards in terms of 2 way play and is also the most durable.Good job adding a ELC into there champ, you really love twisting numbers don't ya, you should work for the IRS.Richards makes 5.7 over 12 years, really good comparison

Drop the whole vendetta, Poms would be your best player if you got him for a 4th liner and a 2nd round pick.Your team hasn't had a 70 point scorer in nearly 10 YEARS
well I have to hand it to you champ, I AM a 20 year veteran of the IRS, so youre right there but that was not my list. That list was the List of the actual ten scorers above Pominville so pominvilles play determined the list not me. and I even subtracted Chris Stewart because of his ELC.

is English your native language because I stated all that in my post, I guess you just cant deal with facts

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08-09-2010, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Armond White View Post
I never said Pominville is an 80-point player. Here are all my posts in this thread. You said Pominville would suck as an Islander, and I pointed out the idiocy of this claim

Wow. You're really reaching there. First, you break off the list at an arbitrary point. Why didn't you include Andy McDonald's 57 points at 4.7 million? Or Phil Kessel's 5.4 million for 55 points?

Second, you ignore the importance of a player's age. Wolski is 24. Ryan is 23. Stewart is 22. I'd go on about this if I didn't notice that, third, you don't even have the numbers right. Wolski will make 3.6 next year (cap hit of 3.8). Vermette will make 3.75. You used contract numbers based on their performances before they became 60-point players. I'm sure you're going to say how not stupid this is, but then why are you using Pominville's 5.3 instead of the 4.5 he actually made last year? You used Wolski's and Vermette's 2009-10 salary, but not the 2009-10 salary of the player you want to rip? I'm not surprised to see this coming from a guy who has been around this site for eight years and still can't get your/you're right.

Armond I used Pominville as a base point, which is standard statistical evaluation. with Pominville as the base I took the next 9 scorers above his production, not my choice, as I said he was a base point. That was not arbitrary. If their average salary was higher id have reported it. I used Pominville as a base point because it wouldnt be fair to use players who scored less than he because one would expect their salary to be lower than Pominvilles Thats the meaning of a base point.

I even Subtracted Chris Stewart because his ELC made him an anomaly and your list was of 80-90 point players so you did in fact imply That Pominville was in fact an 80-90 point player......

All I did was use your exact methodology with Pominville as a base point if you dont like it You should have chosen a better one in the first place

second I used Capgeeks numbers as the generally accepted cap expert. you can use Nhl numbers if you wish it doesnt change the point much if at all. The NHL uses cap hits not actual salary, so thats what I used.

you may think Pominville would play on our top line, but rest assured Okposo is our future captain and our top line right winger. Pominville would be slotted on our 2nd line


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08-09-2010, 06:25 PM
  #90
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Buffalo gets owned. Not going to lie. I like it for the Leafs though
Can we then assume moving forward that if you don't qualify it, you are lying?

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08-09-2010, 07:06 PM
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well I have to hand it to you champ, I AM a 20 year veteran of the IRS, so youre right there but that was not my list. That list was the List of the actual ten scorers above Pominville so pominvilles play determined the list not me. and I even subtracted Chris Stewart because of his ELC.
Argument aside, that's a hilarious coincidence.

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08-09-2010, 07:18 PM
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I even Subtracted Chris Stewart because his ELC made him an anomaly and your list was of 80-90 point players so you did in fact imply That Pominville was in fact an 80-90 point player......
Wow. My list was of 80-90 point players because somebody said 5.3 million was the salary of a consistent 80-90 point player.

Quote:
second I used Capgeeks numbers as the generally accepted cap expert. you can use Nhl numbers if you wish it doesnt change the point much if at all. The NHL uses cap hits not actual salary, so thats what I used.
I'm looking at Capgeek as well. Wolski's cap hit last year was 2.8 million. This year it is 3.8 million. You posted 3.1 million beside Wolski, which was his actual salary from last year. Your "cap hit" figures, your list, your whole thought process...it's all sorts of messed up.

You really never answered any of my points, so let's just end it. We all get that you irrationally don't want any good players on your team because you already have two of them.

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08-09-2010, 09:10 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Armond White View Post

You really never answered any of my points, so let's just end it. We all get that you irrationally don't want any good players on your team because you already have two of them.
no I dont want players whose contract will be an Albatross on my team going forward, its as simple as that. Pominville is overpaid for his production by a million to a million and a half per season and has been declining offensively, and for that you want good assets.

look what was paid for James Wisniewski, why would any team pay what was proposed when Buffalo gets a far greater return in players and cap space

We are rebuilding its not as if we are without veteran leadership, Ice time and opportunity are valuable commodities for a rebuilding franchise, Why help Buffalo by taking on a player who takes up a signifigant portion of their cap and give up assets too when all it does is make us marginally better and take opportunity away from our own prospects?

Garth Snow has shown he will take on a contract, like Wisniewski's that is Short term and helps bring our players along, and even though Pominville could mentor our players and be a great example, the term of his contract is too onerous and would definitely steal opportunity from our own prospects, if not now most assuredly in the future, From Buffalo's standpoint yes this deal makes good sense, But from an Islander standpoint, only a fool would do this. I would sooner take Danius Zubrus from the Devils, as they pare salary to fit in Kovalchuk's salary. Zubrus isnt as good as Pominville, not even close, but the difference is more than made up for in relative cost both in players and in salary if we were to go the veteran acquisition route.


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08-09-2010, 09:30 PM
  #94
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Argument aside, that's a hilarious coincidence.
it shouldnt be most people know that about me, I dont hide it, its what gave me access to the many good people I know in the NHL and Revenue Canada, and I'd never have met my Ex Wife in Calgary if not for that......oh wait....nah just kidding I dont even regret that.

She'd probably come back and beat me if I did,or at least check me head first into the boards

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08-09-2010, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
it shouldnt be most people know that about me, I dont hide it, its what gave me access to the many good people I know in the NHL and Revenue Canada, and I'd never have met my Ex Wife in Calgary if not for that......oh wait....nah just kidding I dont even regret that.

She'd probably come back and beat me if I did,or at least check me head first into the boards
Still at it with the Pomminville net worth thing

Well, after you looked over that 3 degree proposal of mine (thanks for taking the time to do so by the way), I thought on that Ryan out of Anahiem proposal. I would really like to see Bobby Ryan on the RW with Tyler Ennis on the LW of a scoring line. Your thoughts on the potential synergy there with these 2 kids and if you do find it an interesting concept, your thoughts on a young center to complete the package.

Thanks for letting me bounce this off of you.

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08-09-2010, 10:17 PM
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Still at it with the Pomminville net worth thing

Well, after you looked over that 3 degree proposal of mine (thanks for taking the time to do so by the way), I thought on that Ryan out of Anahiem proposal. I would really like to see Bobby Ryan on the RW with Tyler Ennis on the LW of a scoring line. Your thoughts on the potential synergy there with these 2 kids and if you do find it an interesting concept, your thoughts on a young center to complete the package.

Thanks for letting me bounce this off of you.
it think that would be delicious, Ennis looks looks like a real keeper, high energy skilled scorer, but as I said how do you get Ryan? Their not gonna take Vanek because of his contract (Getzlaf and Perry will want the same) and their immediate need is defense and Darcy will never give up Myers, nor should he.

do you have pictures of Doug Wilson with Sheep ?

as far as a center with those two? Id love to see them with Brandon Sutter, hard Working, Dedicated, the kind of kid who even though hes not the most skilled player, nobody but nobody will outwork him.

Id love to be the GM to put those 3 together


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08-09-2010, 10:31 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
it think that would be delicious, Ennis looks looks like a real keeper, high energy skilled scorer, but as I said how do you get Ryan? Their not gonna take Vanek because of his contract (Getzlaf and Perry will want the same) and their immediate need is defense and Darcy will never give up Myers, nor should he.

do you have pictures of Doug Wilson with Sheep ?

as far as a center with those two? Id love to see them with Brandon Sutter, hard Working, Dedicated, the kind of kid who even though hes not the most skilled player, nobody but nobody will outwork him.

Id love to be the GM to put those 3 together
The only way to pry Ryan from Anahiem, if he has a signed contract, is most likely trading them Miller.
And I wouldn't mind that if it was fair value. Miller and Stafford for Hiller and Ryan or something along those lines.

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08-09-2010, 10:43 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by static80 View Post
The only way to pry Ryan from Anahiem, if he has a signed contract, is most likely trading them Miller.
And I wouldn't mind that if it was fair value. Miller and Stafford for Hiller and Ryan or something along those lines.
Miller is great but his money is too high, he's worth it of course but is the upgrade from Hiller to Miller worth Ryan? Id venture to say Wilson would say no

put up a Ryan value thread to the Sabres, in fact I will, I bet 99 percent will come out with Myers

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08-09-2010, 10:50 PM
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static80
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
Miller is great but his money is too high, he's worth it of course but is the upgrade from Hiller to Miller worth Ryan? Id venture to say Wilson would say no

put up a Ryan value thread to the Sabres, in fact I will, I bet 99 percent will come out with Myers
I wouldn't doubt that at all. Which would lead me to say no, only based on his rookie season though. Tough call, but I do agree Anahiem is looking for a PMD and a really good one. Grabbing Kaberle and putting him in a package is a possibility, but Burke will most likely want someone like Roy, decent contract with some skill at Center.

Regier won't bite on that one, I don't think. Very difficult to get a PMD to Anahiem that can be packaged to make them better.

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