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Would you move a forward for quality Dman? (Who?)

View Poll Results: Would you move a forward for quality Dman? (Who?)
*Joe Thornton (NMC) 0 0%
*Patrick Marleau (NMC) 4 5.80%
*Dany Heatley (NMC) 32 46.38%
Joe Pavelski 7 10.14%
Ryane Clowe 0 0%
Logan Couture 1 1.45%
Devin Setoguchi (RFA) 8 11.59%
No - devlop within or go to July 1st 17 24.64%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-30-2011, 05:34 AM
  #1
Le Rosbeef
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Would you move a forward for quality Dman? (Who?)

Ok, so I'm after some realistic debate/polling about the direction of the Sharks on the specific issue of acquiring a quality Dman. I think most people would agree that (A) it was the area, openly predicted by many at the start of the year to be the biggest concern and, (B) continues to be the suggested focus for team improvement going forward?

I've seen countless discussions all over HFboards, threads etc about what the Sharks should do on this matter and frankly, I'm far from sure myself and flip flop my feelings about it almost daily. Intuitively you'd assume that once again Wilson will 'tweak' the team rather than overhaul it, (which to me implies most of the core would be staying...), but is that what the fans want to see? Is it the right thing for the team to do?

As far as I can see, San Jose lacks a quality top 2/(3) two-way blueliner capable of eating big minutes alongside Boyle, Vlasic and Murray. While Demers is an option (as discussed ad nauseum last year...), it would seem a stretch to see him develop to the level people have been clamouring for so quickly...

We have a defined 7 'top 6 forwards' and we all know, you have to give to get if you want a quality return - and frankly I am not sure we have any other assets a team would take enough interest in to fill our need on the blueline. So here are the contenders for a possible trade:

1) Joe Thornton*
NMC. I'm including his name superficially, but let's face it, it's not happening. Add to that, he's coming off of a superb playoffs.

2) Patrick Marleau*
NMC. Again, not happening - name is included purely to keep up appearances. Guy is 4th in league scoring over the past 2 years (behind only Crosby, Stamkos and Ovechkin) and is 13th all-time on playoff GWGs - say what we want about his intensity or occasional streakiness, there's no way Wilson could justify asking him to waive, so he won't. Realistically not an option.

3) Dany Heatley*^

Perhaps inadvisably, I'll also suggest we include his name in the poll but we need to be grounded about this and not just blindly hate on the guy. 1) We believe he has a partial NMC, right? If so, end of discussion. Wilson moved Cheechoo, Michalek and Ehrhoff (cap facilitation), in order to make room for Dany - he's hung his hat on him and no GM will admit that a mistake like that when it could cost him his job. Add to that, his trade value is low right now after a statistically poor season by his previous standards. If you engineer a trade for Heatley, you will not get back requisite value which, in combination, means he's not getting traded. Let's try to be realistic about this, right? (I've included his name as I don't want to incite a riot for not appearing fair...)

4) Joe Pavelski
Yes, it could be done hypothetically even though your gut reaction is to punch the monitor right now. Pavs has been exceptional but there's a case to be made for trading him. Why? Great contract, super production and intangibles, but the two scariest words for him right now might just be 'Logan Couture', who has shone this year. If you believe in the adage of trade while the value is high, Pavelski could arguably fetch the best return for the Sharks and that alone makes it tempting. Perhaps I'm wrong but if you want a top 2 blueliner, you'd have to say Pavelski should have enough value to achieve that. We have 3 centres - do we need all of them? Are we getting full value from them?

5) Ryane Clowe
18 months ago there was a queue of fans wanting this. Now? Not so visible. His skill set is very valuable and he has perceived value around the league - is the loss of those skills enough to justify if we get a quality blueliner back, like Pavelski? Do we have possible replacements for him in the offing like Brandon Mashinter? Maybe even Charlie Coyle further down the line (although the comparison is one of size; granted he has a different skill set, slightly). His value is probably somewhere a bit below Pavelski's but it's certainly inflated after the current season. Those are the shrewdest times to deal, and agree with me or not, Wilson has his shrewd moments when it comes to trading...

6) Logan Couture
Unlikely, but we have to consider all the bases here. There would be no shortage of suitors lining up for a hugely talented young centre who finds the back of the net and plays a smart all-around game, especially in his own zone. You could make a very strong case that his value might even be higher than any of these candidates given he's signed to $1.2m for next season but ask yourself this - what will he command as an RFA next year? His trade value is high so there's some definite deal potential there.

7) Devin Setoguchi
A hard one to evaluate. 1 superb full season and then two that have, I'm sure he'll admit, not lived up to his/our expectations. With a 4th full season coming up (which is often a break out year), do you risk giving up on him now? Do you trade off of his name and potential? Do you risk holding onto him, only to underachieve again and all but destroy his trade value in terms of potential? Right now he's a much harder sell because he's RFA and coming off an adequate season rather than good but he still has value around the league, not least because of what he is capable of doing. But does his currently deflated value hinder what we could get in a return for him to the point where it wasn't worthwhile? Shouldn't we be looking forward to his likely return on another short, relatively inexpensive contract next year (judging by his comments?)

8) Option 8 is 'No', meaning we'd do nothing at all. It then follows that all of the above are too valuable as components in the Sharks line up and that the D will have to 'make do' or replace from within (i.e White? Demers?). Probably not viable to appease the fans calling for a big upgrade, but it's certainly an option that fits with a 'tweak philosophy'. The alternative is to look at the free agent market, but again it comes with significant caution that the Sharks only have about $8m in cap space based on the current cap, there's a new CBA looming in the distance (which could have major implication for teams tied up at the cap ceiling) and we have, about 10 free agents and 7-8 roster spots to re-sign with that wedge? Wilson is also historically conservative on July 1st, which needs to play into our considerations about how realistically we could fill the need for a top pairing Dman there...

I'd invite some constructive feedback and what you would do, and would be particularly interested to see who you specifically think would fit/why? Not just pie-in-the-sky wishlists, but teams we could fundamentally get a deal with that would be mutually beneficial and work from a cap standpoint.

Ok, let's go!


Last edited by Le Rosbeef: 05-30-2011 at 05:47 AM.
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Old
05-30-2011, 10:18 AM
  #2
Sharksfan83
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IF a move is made, I could potentially see Clowe being the one going.

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05-30-2011, 10:25 AM
  #3
KpopandHockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharksfan83 View Post
IF a move is made, I could potentially see Clowe being the one going.
I couldn't, he got the A this year. He was first in team scoring in the POs for the first round. He brings an immense amount of team leadership and sticks up for other teammates. He's about as immovable as you can get.

Look at how we played game 6 in Detroit when we didn't have him. Not to mention the fact that we aren't going to get a good enough return on him because he's a player that doesn't have the best stats.

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05-30-2011, 10:33 AM
  #4
sjshrky27
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I dont see Clowe going anywhere. But if he did it better be for a top number 1 D player like Pronger

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05-30-2011, 10:37 AM
  #5
bigwillie
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Only one I would consider moving that other teams would actually want (as in not Heatley) is Setoguchi.

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05-30-2011, 11:01 AM
  #6
Pinkfloyd
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I would say no. They have the cap space and assets to acquire a legitimate top four without moving any of the top seven forwards.

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05-30-2011, 11:08 AM
  #7
rangerssharks414
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Would I move a forward? If I got an offer and liked it, I would definitely consider it. I don't think they have to though.


Realistically, the only forward I could see being moved is Setoguchi, and I don't think it will happen.

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05-30-2011, 12:00 PM
  #8
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Clowe is important to our playstyle for his size, ability in front of the boards, and net presence. He's not going anywhere. Seto will be dangled as trade bait, but only for a 1B d-man.

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05-30-2011, 12:09 PM
  #9
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We all know how scoring depth is necessary in the playoffs. Do they have a forward prospect who could break through this year and surpass any of the 7? I don't think so. Is there any forward who is a complete disappointment in the playoffs over his career? Looks more like opening one hole to create another. To get over the hump at this point, DW has to make a surgical strike, not just go willy nilly into the market. There are more opportunities for him to downgrade the team than upgrade. It's not about favorites and least favorite players; it is about what is best for the team. Pretty much we all know what is needed, a high end two-way dman who is a little stronger defensively than offensively.

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05-30-2011, 01:20 PM
  #10
TheJuxtaposer
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This will not be a popular opinion, but I would be okay with moving Pavelski for a top pairing defenseman.

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05-30-2011, 01:28 PM
  #11
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I actually wouldn't be against trading any of those guys, except for Thornton, as long as we were getting a top-2 defenseman who can score over 45 points per season. With his performance this year I want to keep Thornton, but any of those other guys are super inconsistent. They'll have a great series and then a crap one. JT was putting effort out each night and dominated the opposition night in and night out. Last year? He had effort every night; he wasn't able to produce but he did play quite well. Marleau was a boss in round 3 and meh in rounds 1 and 2, just like last year. Pavelski was a dominant player in rounds 1 and 2 in last year's playoffs. Round 3 he was meh. Setoguchi is just all over the map; I like him but he is easily the most inconsistent player on our team. Heatley is actually consistent in the playoffs, but he's consistent at being bad. Clowe? Same thing, he was great in rounds 1 this year and last year, pretty good in round 2, then not so good in round 3. Those guys are just all very inconsistent, and while I like them (aside from Heatley who I hate), I am not against trading any of them for a top-2 defenseman who will help us better than those guys will. Also, I would much rather wait to July 1st to sign a 2-way UFA guy such as Ehrhoff, Wisniewski, Pitkanen, Kaberle, Hamrlik, Babchuk, etc. Though I've heard that both Pitkanen and Wisniewski are pretty one-way guys, anybody have QUALcomp or Corsi on those guys?


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05-30-2011, 01:32 PM
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No way. We need forward depth. They've been half-assing the 3 scoring lines concept by only having 7 top-6 players and throwing in 2 scrubs.

We need another top-6 player and a top-4 dman. Gimme Jokinen and Brewer.

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05-30-2011, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehJuxtaposer View Post
This will not be a popular opinion, but I would be okay with moving Pavelski for a top pairing defenseman.
I agree completely. I like him (Even own a jersey of his) but he is super inconsistent, and he is one of our only players who could fetch a top pair defenseman.

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05-30-2011, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
No way. We need forward depth. They've been half-assing the 3 scoring lines concept by only having 7 top-6 players and throwing in 2 scrubs.

We need another top-6 player and a top-4 dman. Gimme Jokinen and Brewer.
Brewer can't move the puck too well; I'd like Jokinen but would that even work out cap wise?

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05-30-2011, 01:42 PM
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Kitten Mittons
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Originally Posted by Trade Dany Heatley View Post
Brewer can't move the puck too well; I'd like Jokinen but would that even work out cap wise?
I used capgeek giving Brewer 5 and Jussi 2.75 and it barely fit. Probably unrealistic. I am sure other teams would offer him more.

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05-30-2011, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
I used capgeek giving Brewer 5 and Jussi 2.75 and it barely fit. Probably unrealistic. I am sure other teams would offer him more.
Brewer's contract is realistic (probably a bit over) but Jokinen would want at least 1 million more than that. He was 4th in scoring for UFAs who will actually hit the market (Lidstrom never will hit the market; he signs in DET or retires, Selanne will never hit the market; he signs in ANA or retires) and 3rd in P/G, he will want 3.75 at least. If we were able to dump Heatley's contract then I would be willing to try and sign Jokinen (or Tanguay. I would like to sign a second line scorer to this team too but capwise it wouldn't work, and we need a top pair defenseman more than scoring depth honestly.

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05-30-2011, 01:49 PM
  #17
Led Zappa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
We all know how scoring depth is necessary in the playoffs. Do they have a forward prospect who could break through this year and surpass any of the 7? I don't think so. Is there any forward who is a complete disappointment in the playoffs over his career? Looks more like opening one hole to create another. To get over the hump at this point, DW has to make a surgical strike, not just go willy nilly into the market. There are more opportunities for him to downgrade the team than upgrade. It's not about favorites and least favorite players; it is about what is best for the team. Pretty much we all know what is needed, a high end two-way dman who is a little stronger defensively than offensively.
This is the answer. This should be a year of addition not subtraction. We almost made it and if we were one more solid D deep, to cover for Demers injury, who knows. I'm not to happy with the way it ended anyway, not to mention the injuries. And yes, they are an excuse - to a point.

The more of your core you can keep together the better and there's no glaring reason to trade any of them IMO.

Try and sign Welly & White. Seto said he'd take less to stay. If the cap goes up to 63+ and we find that Dman, this team will be looking sweet to start the year.

That said, if it was required to trade Seto to get that Dman, I would listen, but it would have to be a great deal and we would then be looking for a replacement for Seto.

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05-30-2011, 01:50 PM
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In my eyes it comes down to Pavs and Seto as options. I really hate this idea, but Pavs could definitely get us a top dman we need. Seto really won't have quite enough value for it... I'd really hate to see Pavs go though...

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05-30-2011, 01:51 PM
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SJeasy
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Originally Posted by TehJuxtaposer View Post
This will not be a popular opinion, but I would be okay with moving Pavelski for a top pairing defenseman.
And you won't complain when scoring disappears in the first round of the playoffs? That didn't work so well against Anaheim a couple of years ago.

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05-30-2011, 03:34 PM
  #20
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None will be moved. The need for a defenseman is there but I think it will be addressed in the FA market.

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05-30-2011, 04:07 PM
  #21
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Hands down Heatley. We could sign 2 quality dmen with the money he is robbing from the organization.

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05-30-2011, 04:46 PM
  #22
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why can't this be multiple choice?

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05-30-2011, 05:00 PM
  #23
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None will be moved. The need for a defenseman is there but I think it will be addressed in the FA market.
DW never uses the FA market. He hates it. IMO our D wil look the same next year.

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05-30-2011, 05:02 PM
  #24
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has to be heater. 7.5 million are you kidding me? i like the guy but he's no where near worth his cap hit, this isn't even debatable. now of course, what we could get from him is questionable, so he might not be a realistic trade. but he is the guy we SHOULD try and get rid of. i'd honestly take soupy for him straight up, as bad as his contract is, as i think our backend would be pretty good with him in there.

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05-30-2011, 06:04 PM
  #25
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If DW was a clever cat as Yzerman and refill that spot through FA or draft then yes. DW is a 50/50 chance of success risk taker when it comes to those things one of the best but is it enough to propel us to the Cup. Let's say we have a similar forward in FA that can be had for less or a prospect that can come up and take a spot then sure if we get a legit dman. I don't know what DW SCup defense would consist of but he still needs to work on that and build a 3rd and 4th line that can score, win faceoffs, and a whole team that can at least look SCary on the PP.

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