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Oates vs Selanne

View Poll Results: Who should rank higher?
oates 17 34.00%
selanne 28 56.00%
draw 5 10.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-13-2010, 02:40 PM
  #1
ushvinder
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Oates vs Selanne

Who do you rank higher all-time?

Top 10 finishes
Oates: 3, 3, 3, 7, 8, 9 10,
Selanne: 2, 2, 5, 5, 7, 8

Playoff:
Oates: 156 points in 163 games
Selanne: 72 points in 105 games

Seems pretty clear to me who the better player is.


Last edited by ushvinder: 08-13-2010 at 05:51 PM.
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Old
08-13-2010, 05:54 PM
  #2
vulture77
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Voted Selanne because of his international resume and a cup.

Oates could make 50 goal scorers out of 30 goal scorers and 80 goal scorers out of 50 goal scorers. Then again, Selanne has also been a common denominator for many classic lines as well and has been an excellent match for a number of players, so I don't think that closes the gap enough. Very, very close though.

It would have been great to see them play together in same line. Looking at their history I can't think of a more ideal match.

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Old
08-13-2010, 06:02 PM
  #3
RabbinsDuck
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Oates is a much better playmaker than Selanne is a goalscorer.
Voted Oates, who is also underrated defensively.

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08-13-2010, 06:22 PM
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revolverjgw
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Oates. Better all-around, a better playmaker than Selanne is a goal scorer, better playoff performer even though he never won a Cup. He could turn schmucks into scorers, scorers into stars and stars into supernovas.

Selanne's international resume gets him close, but Oates is badly handicapped here... he was a center from Canada... sucks to be him.

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Old
08-13-2010, 06:29 PM
  #5
vulture77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Oates is a much better playmaker than Selanne is a goalscorer.
Voted Oates, who is also underrated defensively.
Agree that Oates indeed is better playmaker than Selanne is a goalscorer. But much better?

Selanne is quite adept goalscorer as well, being the current leader in active players in goals and they both are quite high at goals (Selanne 18th, 0.511) and assists (Oates 7th, 0.801) per game category all time. Also, Selanne is better playmaker than Oates is goalscorer.

I don't know what to make of their defense, Oates is definitely more responsible, but I can't quantify the positive effect. I think on average Selanne forced opponents to play more defensively than Oates. Which had more effect, I don't know. I seem to remember someone did adjusted +/- ratings somewhere on this forum and Selanne ranked surprisingly high there.

Still I could definitely see Oates being voted the better, but I personally voted Selanne for the reasons I wrote earlier.

EDIT: It is true that Oates didn't have much chance to play in international competition. But I think that the all time points lead in Olympic Hockey (although the earliest competition in 92 Selanne participated in was not best-on-best) is a pretty good accomplishment for anybody, in any team and is an ok tiebreaker if one is needed, along with the cup. Oates definitely performed better in playoffs, but post-lockout has shown Selanne can actually contribute in playoffs as well, although not being in prime. His years in Colorado and SJ with shot knee really hurt him though, but I personally give him a bit leeway there.


Last edited by vulture77: 08-13-2010 at 07:04 PM.
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Old
08-13-2010, 06:42 PM
  #6
190Octane
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Oates points totals are heavily influenced by the fact that his prime was played during a much higher scoring era.

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Old
08-13-2010, 06:45 PM
  #7
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Oates is a much better playmaker than Selanne is a goalscorer.
Voted Oates, who is also underrated defensively.
I see this logic around here a lot, not just from you, and I really don't like it. Ushvinder posted their point totals and they are very similar. Rather than giving Oates the edge for being more one dimensional in his offense, I give the offensive edge to selanne rather easily as the better goalscorer since goals are statistically more valuable than assists.

Oates makes up for this with his superior defensive ability and the value being an all time great at faceoffs adds to his career.

At first glance, this one seems too close to call. Oates might be superior in the playoffs, but it's not by all that much as the raw stats indicate, as much of his career was spent in a higher scoring era.

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Old
08-13-2010, 06:46 PM
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Adam Oates...

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Old
08-13-2010, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I see this logic around here a lot, not just from you, and I really don't like it. Ushvinder posted their point totals and they are very similar. Rather than giving Oates the edge for being more one dimensional in his offense, I give the offensive edge to selanne rather easily as the better goalscorer since goals are statistically more valuable than assists.

Oates makes up for this with his superior defensive ability and the value being an all time great at faceoffs adds to his career.

At first glance, this one seems too close to call. Oates might be superior in the playoffs, but it's not by all that much as the raw stats indicate, as much of his career was spent in a higher scoring era.
Great, I get called out for being lazy in my response... Shoulda just voted, lol.

I Largely agree with you, only that when you are as good of a playmaker as Oates (I do not consider Selanne one of the greatest goal scorers of all time), playmaking can be equally valuable as goal scoring. Oates made others around him better like few others have.

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08-13-2010, 07:30 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 190Octane View Post
Oates points totals are heavily influenced by the fact that his prime was played during a much higher scoring era.
Selanne's 76 goals came in the most ridiculous scoring season ever..

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08-13-2010, 07:36 PM
  #11
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I copped out and picked draw. I put Oates' playmaking at or slightly above Selanne's goal scoring, and I don't hold international play (or lack thereof) against Oates so much... but I gotta give Selanne credit for the fact that he HAS excelled internationally. Thus, I lazily end at "draw".

I also care equally little about Oates and his career (sorry Oates fans... appreciate the skill, couldn't care less about the player) as I'm sick of seeing so much Selanne-centric discussion, so that sealed the vote.

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Old
08-13-2010, 07:40 PM
  #12
mrhockey193195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I see this logic around here a lot, not just from you, and I really don't like it. Ushvinder posted their point totals and they are very similar. Rather than giving Oates the edge for being more one dimensional in his offense, I give the offensive edge to selanne rather easily as the better goalscorer since goals are statistically more valuable than assists.

Oates makes up for this with his superior defensive ability and the value being an all time great at faceoffs adds to his career.

At first glance, this one seems too close to call. Oates might be superior in the playoffs, but it's not by all that much as the raw stats indicate, as much of his career was spent in a higher scoring era.
Agreed. Oates is on most peoples' top 10 playmakers of all time list, while Selanne probably not on any top 10 goal scorers of all time list. That being said, if that's all you consider, you're only looking at one dimension of their offense. Selanne was probably a better playmaker than Oates was a goal scorer. Additionally, it's hard to look past Selanne's international resume and his cup, even though many of his playoff performances left more to be desired.

All things considered, I can't really pick between the two. Both guys are probably in my top 100, but specifically who I have higher is not something I have decided yet.

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08-13-2010, 08:02 PM
  #13
vulture77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stank Mahovlich View Post
Selanne's 76 goals came in the most ridiculous scoring season ever..
They both benefitted from that though, as it was also easily Oates's careers best season points-wise. But looking at who he played with then, 97 assists is quite an accomplishment. Then again, so is 76 goals as a rookie. Oates led the league in assists, Selanne had the most goals...

After that Selanne had more good seasons. Oates was over 30 though and usually players are exiting their prime after 30 (especially with 80's players) but he aged really well. Then again so did Selanne with his almost 48 goal season after the lockout.

This is surprisingly good comparison as both entered the NHL rather late and both seem to play to about same age of 40+.

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08-13-2010, 08:09 PM
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kmad
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But taking the 76 goal season away would hurt Selanne's legacy a lot more than taking Oates' 1992-93 season away would hurt his.

This is close but I have to go with Oates. For the reasons mentioned above. Oates is way higher up the list of playmakers than Selanne is of goalscorers.

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08-13-2010, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stank Mahovlich View Post
But taking the 76 goal season away would hurt Selanne's legacy a lot more than taking Oates' 1992-93 season away would hurt his.

This is close but I have to go with Oates. For the reasons mentioned above. Oates is way higher up the list of playmakers than Selanne is of goalscorers.
Oates is much higher on the list of playmakers than almost anyone is on goalscoring, but there are plethora of better offensive players than him, among whom I count Selanne, who are worse goalscorers than he is a playmaker. So I am not sure if that is a good argument.

If we remove the 92-93 season their careers would look like this:
Oates 1253. 296+982=1278
Selanne 1102. 530+598=1128

Looks quite comparable and as for accoplishments and awards, it would still leave Selanne with 2 Richards (counting pre-Richard 98 goal lead), Masterson and Stanley Cup against nothing for Oates, although playmakers are slighted in personal honors.

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08-13-2010, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vulture77 View Post
Oates is much higher on the list of playmakers than almost anyone is on goalscoring, but there are plethora of better offensive players than him, among whom I count Selanne, who are worse goalscorers than he is a playmaker. So I am not sure if that is a good argument.

If we remove the 92-93 season their careers would look like this:
Oates 1253. 296+982=1278
Selanne 1102. 530+598=1128

Looks quite comparable and as for accoplishments and awards, it would still leave Selanne with 2 Richards (counting pre-Richard 98 goal lead), Masterson and Stanley Cup against nothing for Oates, although playmakers are slighted in personal honors.
Oates was also stuck behind Yzerman for years, while Selanne was given first-line ice minutes from day one because he played on weak teams.

In 1991, Oates finished 3rd in scoring while missing 19 games. I can't envision selanne outpointing guys like recci, sakic and yzerman while missing 1/4th of the season.

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08-13-2010, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stank Mahovlich View Post
But taking the 76 goal season away would hurt Selanne's legacy a lot more than taking Oates' 1992-93 season away would hurt his.

This is close but I have to go with Oates. For the reasons mentioned above. Oates is way higher up the list of playmakers than Selanne is of goalscorers.
It's not just about 92-93, though. Oates played a good portion of his career in that era, Selanne more or less just had his rookie season. That's a huge difference.

Anyway, I'll give a slight edge to Selanne. I'd say Oates has a slight edge in career value and Selanne has a bit of a bigger edge in peak value. I also value scorers a lot more than playmakers, so that plays a factor.

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08-13-2010, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Oates was also stuck behind Yzerman for years, while Selanne was given first-line ice minutes from day one because he played on weak teams.

In 1991, Oates finished 3rd in scoring while missing 19 games. I can't envision selanne outpointing guys like recci, sakic and yzerman while missing 1/4th of the season.
Yes, that's why he was given them.

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08-13-2010, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Oates was also stuck behind Yzerman for years, while Selanne was given first-line ice minutes from day one because he played on weak teams.

In 1991, Oates finished 3rd in scoring while missing 19 games. I can't envision selanne outpointing guys like recci, sakic and yzerman while missing 1/4th of the season.
I don't think either of us is saying Oates is equal player to Sakic and Yzerman, but that's impressive season for sure. I have about equal example though. While I think Selanne's 97-98 season is his most impressive, even including the 92-93, Ducks weren't a very good team the year after either.

Selanne was 2nd in points in 98-99 season, outscoring Sakic and Forsberg (who had healthy season) in fewer games. Calculating if he had missed 19 games he would have been at 90 points pace, good for 9th place, 11 points shy of teammate Kariya who was 3rd and 7 points to Forberg (who was 3rd).

Now thats not equal to Oates in 91 itself, but while Kariya and Selanne had a superb chemistry, I am fairly sure Hull's 86 goals that year helped Oates's point totals a bit more (although Oates helped Hull's undoubtedly as much).

Apart from Kariya I don't think Selanne had nearly as much help that year. For example having someone of Scott Stevens's calibre, like Hull and Oates did, in the backlines, would probably have helped their powerplay a bit though.

But no doubt that is quite a season for Oates and an excellent example of how he managed to improve the goal totals of Hull and other players, such as later he did with Juneau.

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08-13-2010, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Great, I get called out for being lazy in my response... Shoulda just voted, lol.

I Largely agree with you, only that when you are as good of a playmaker as Oates (I do not consider Selanne one of the greatest goal scorers of all time), playmaking can be equally valuable as goal scoring. Oates made others around him better like few others have.
No, I agree that with playmakers like Oates, assists are usually just as valuable as goals from elite goal scorers. I still give it to the goal scorer as a tie break when points finishes are so close though.

But I guess it is an argument that the offensive gap is small enough that Oates' other abilities make him surpass Selanne.

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08-13-2010, 10:04 PM
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There's another thing I have been wondering about. Now I know Selanne has never been a defensive stalwart, but I never have viewed him as especially liable either.

I have watched some of the old Ducks games from the 90's but that was then and my memory is fickle. In addition, these days I don't really like to watch late 90's hockey anyway even if there are games available in the net. 80's are so much more entertaining.

But how was Selanne defensively in his prime?

Oates is better, but on the other hand at least in international games Selanne seemed to put up at least an adquate effort and I would assume his speed helps here a bit, compared to defensively more adept, but slower players. Oates was pretty good, but he really didn't have the best wheels.

Certainly he didn't seem to do anything to catch my eye negatively as far as I remember prime Selanne. Also he seems to have pretty good +/- in bad teams (although 93-94 is quite horrible) if that tells anything.

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08-13-2010, 10:43 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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There's another thing I have been wondering about. Now I know Selanne has never been a defensive stalwart, but I never have viewed him as especially liable either.

I have watched some of the old Ducks games from the 90's but that was then and my memory is fickle. In addition, these days I don't really like to watch late 90's hockey anyway even if there are games available in the net. 80's are so much more entertaining.

But how was Selanne defensively in his prime?

Oates is better, but on the other hand at least in international games Selanne seemed to put up at least an adquate effort and I would assume his speed helps here a bit, compared to defensively more adept, but slower players. Oates was pretty good, but he really didn't have the best wheels.

Certainly he didn't seem to do anything to catch my eye negatively as far as I remember prime Selanne. Also he seems to have pretty good +/- in bad teams (although 93-94 is quite horrible) if that tells anything.
From what I remember, Selanne and Kariya were basically allowed to think all-offense in Anaheim, while Steve Ruchin did the dirty work for them and stayed back defensively... in part because he was too slow to keep up with them.

I never thought of Selanne as awful defensively, just that, it was never his job. He was certainly no Bure out there. But he definitely gets docked in that he never really improved defensively to become a plus on that side, like many vet players do.

I also agree that Oates' defense is often overrated and mostly due to his amazing faceoff ability (which can definitely be a defensive skill). Even without faceoffs though, Oates was definitely better defensively than Teemu.


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08-14-2010, 04:23 AM
  #23
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I also care equally little about Oates and his career (sorry Oates fans... appreciate the skill, couldn't care less about the player) as I'm sick of seeing so much Selanne-centric discussion, so that sealed the vote.
I guess people, including me, are trying to make the case that Selšnne is underrated. Hopefully he has a great season at 40, and convinces more people.

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08-14-2010, 05:25 AM
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Thanks for the answer DevilMadeMe. Selanne certainly isn't the first player whom I'd consider putting to play short handed. I guess is anybodys choise how much credit the defense part gets in overall value.

For me it plays a part but isn't all-important as it's easier and equally effective to find specialists to play short handed, for example, than to "sacrifice" your offensive stars there.

On even strenght play I'm not sure how effective that is overall in otherwise dedicated team, or if the line overall works. I originally considered the Oates's better defence in equation, but gave Selanne some credit in this regard for his ability to fit in with variety of dangerous lines and have a good chemistry with players through his career.

I consider that to be an ability in itself and the line factor offsetting the defense part a bit. I don't feel like disparging specific players now, but I guess anyone can name fantastic players with tons of ability, who really can't seem to find good matches or chemistry with their lines.

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08-15-2010, 01:50 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 190Octane View Post
Oates points totals are heavily influenced by the fact that his prime was played during a much higher scoring era.
So if that's the case the best thing to do is look at the original post and see where their places were in the scoring race. This is the best way to judge eras although their careers overlapped for a long time.

I picked Oates. Because in all honesty I would give Francis the edge if I had a gun to my head in the other thread vs. Selanne. Oates was better at his best than Francis for sure.

It's funny because Oates was so quietly one of the more underappreciated players of all time. You never saw him in commercials on TV. You barely saw him do an interview. He never won a Cup. He was snubbed from the Olympics/Canada Cups. His face just wasn't familiar to the casual fan and I think this hurts him, but it shouldn't really because if you isolate his on-ice play he was fabulously effective. I mean he turned Chris Simon into a 29 goal scorer. Neely, Hull and Bondra all owe it to him for their best years. Hull is an all-time great and we saw the proof of his numbers slipping once Oates left town.

Selanne's career is funny too. He was dominant from 1992-2000 for the most part. He scored 729 points (2nd most in that timeframe to Jaromir) and yet Oates wasn't far behind at 682 (4th). This excludes Oates' three elite seasons prior to this as well. Plus when Selanne had that collapse in his career (2000-2004) it was Oates who decided to lead the NHL in assists twice. Throw in his defense superiority to Selanne and his playoff superiority in that time frame and I figure Oates is the clear cut winner.

Now post lockout Selanne has redeemed himself. A couple of really good seasons and good playoffs, as well as a Cup and arguably the best forward on a Cup winning team. So that narrows the gap but career wise I still believe it to be Oates. Selanne was flashier and on the surface more dangerous looking on the ice. But the playmaking of Oates seemed to make his LINEMATES so dangerous looking while everyone forgot about him and how they got their goals in the first place.

The ironic thing is Selanne is a lock for the HHOF, and I agree. Oates should be but isn't in there yet. Something is fishy. Hart voting and goal scoring though is an avenue that Selanne does come out on top so it isn't as if I am trying to discredit him at all.

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