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Selšnne vs Francis

View Poll Results: ?
Selšnne 55 54.46%
Francis 39 38.61%
Even 7 6.93%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-12-2010, 03:56 PM
  #51
vulture77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
despite the recent resurgences of "Francis was never really that special" and "Selanne is underrated and a possible top-120 player", I am surprised to see Francis losing this one. Like MadArcand, with intangibles and defense and integrating into a team taken into consideration, I don't see how Selanne contributed more to his team's successes than Francis.
I gotta say I am a bit surprised as well. I am finn and probably one of the biggest Selanne supporters around, but I just can't vote against Francis on this one.

Selanne peaked higher, but Francis was one of the best players as well for a very, very long time. Selanne gets a lot of credit from me for being a great guy (it's not just his reputation in NHL, he was around and helped his brother, who didn't really get the best hand in life, a lot), but Francis has flawless reputation as well.

And I appreciate players who get results without neccessarily being flashy. Selanne was better at his best, and Francis certainly isn't as high in all time ranking as his points indicate, but overall Francis takes this. It's not a walk but for me the difference is clear.

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08-12-2010, 04:04 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Meh this poll could go either way. However, someone should make a poll comparing selanne to either forsberg or adam oates. I wanna see if jepjepjoo still picks selanne, lol he must be his son or something.
Ushvinder lol roflmao omg.1!11!

edit: lmao

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08-12-2010, 04:08 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Ushvinder lol roflmao omg.1!11!

edit: lmao
You thought he's better than Peter Stastny, when he clearly isn't. So I dont have to convince others that you are biased homer, its so obvious.

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08-12-2010, 05:02 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Funny bonus playoff fact: Francis has never really produced in the playoffs before or after getting Jagr as a regular linemate

Before Jagr as a linemate 56gp 39pts 0.7ppg (Despite most of the season were in the 80s)
With Jagr 73gp 83pts 1.13ppg
After Jagr 41gp 21 pts 0.51ppg

Nice touch with Selanne never outscoring Kariya in the playoffs:

96-97
Selanne 7g 3a
Kariya 7g 6a

98-99
Selanne 2g 2a
Kariya 1g 3a
I agree that Francis was nothing special in the playoffs before going to the powerhouse Pittsburgh team. But his post-Jagr numbers aren't entirely fair to him since they include 12 games with the Maple Leafs when Francis was finally and obviously over the hill as a hockey player. Francis's 2002 run was also at least as impressive as Selanne's Cup year IMO.

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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
The reality also is that Francis never was anything special in the playoffs without Jagr. He was a regular letdown in Hartford.
As the one who started the "nothing special as a scorer without Jagr," I really need to say this isn't true. Francis played great as the perfect second line center in 1991 and 1992 before Jagr really established himself as an elite player. Francis was also amazing in 2002 (granted, his only good playoff run outside of Pittsburgh).

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08-13-2010, 09:03 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
You thought he's better than Peter Stastny, when he clearly isn't. So I dont have to convince others that you are biased homer, its so obvious.
Do you contribute anything to this thread? And yes I still think Selanne is better than Stastny and I think the poll was close to 50/50 too.

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08-13-2010, 01:34 PM
  #56
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Kariya was the captain of Ducks only on paper, he was never the real leader of the team. He was shy, quiet player in the lockerroom and sulked in the public.

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08-13-2010, 02:20 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Meh this poll could go either way. However, someone should make a poll comparing selanne to either forsberg or adam oates. I wanna see if jepjepjoo still picks selanne, lol he must be his son or something.
One of those bolded is considered a first ballot HOFer and the other one still isn't in after 3 tries.

EDIT: Francis is obviously better than Oates, your statement makes no sense at all.

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08-13-2010, 02:27 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Do you contribute anything to this thread? And yes I still think Selanne is better than Stastny and I think the poll was close to 50/50 too.
Why based, on adjusted stats? Something that clearly favous deadpuck era guys. Stastny has better top 10 scoring finishes and a way better playoff resume. LOL, you think selanne is better than everyone, he's probably in your top 10 all times.

Teemu Selanne is a stats guy, he's good based on what his stats say. The guy brought no intangibles to the table at all. Stastny will always get mentioned in the hoh top 100 and the hockey news top 60 since 67, that's two lists that exclude selanne.


Last edited by ushvinder: 08-13-2010 at 02:33 PM.
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08-13-2010, 02:34 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
One of those bolded is considered a first ballot HOFer and the other one still isn't in after 3 tries.

EDIT: Francis is obviously better than Oates, your statement makes no sense at all.
Not peak wise, if you do a poll, alot of people would pick oates over franics easily. Francis didn't have any great seasons without jagr. Oates has better playoff numbers and better top 10 finishes.

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08-13-2010, 02:41 PM
  #60
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Not peak wise, if you do a poll, alot of people would pick oates over franics easily. Francis didn't have any great seasons without jagr. Oates has better playoff numbers and better top 10 finishes.
Oates easily over Francis? This thread suggests otherwise.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...Francis&page=2

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08-13-2010, 02:44 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Oates easily over Francis? This thread suggests otherwise.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...Francis&page=2
Yeah they pretty much said what i was saying, Oates had a better peak and he did. By the way, franics didn't have to spend the 80's behind steve yzerman, he got toplay first line minutes on a crappy team.

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08-13-2010, 04:01 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Why based, on adjusted stats? Something that clearly favous deadpuck era guys. Stastny has better top 10 scoring finishes and a way better playoff resume. LOL, you think selanne is better than everyone, he's probably in your top 10 all times.

Teemu Selanne is a stats guy, he's good based on what his stats say. The guy brought no intangibles to the table at all. Stastny will always get mentioned in the hoh top 100 and the hockey news top 60 since 67, that's two lists that exclude selanne.
Roflmao, Tse, Lol, tung, tweet, OMG!!11! wazzup? lmao

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08-13-2010, 04:03 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Roflmao, Tse, Lol, tung, tweet, OMG!!11! wazzup? lmao
okay kid, the polls section is in the other section of this site.

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08-13-2010, 04:10 PM
  #64
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okay kid, the polls section is in the other section of this site.
What? lol basically yeah lol.

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Old
08-15-2010, 07:42 AM
  #65
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Regarding Francis' placements in team playoff scoring...

(regular season finish in parentheses)

Francis: 1st (2nd), 1st (1st), 2nd (1st), 2nd (1st), 2nd (4th), 3rd (1st), 3rd (8th), 3rd (3rd), 3rd (2nd), 6th (4th**), 6th (2nd), 7th (2nd), 7th (3rd***), 9th (6th****), 11th (3rd), 11th (4th***), 12th (2nd***)
Selanne: 1st (1st), 1st (1st), 2nd (1st), 3rd (1st), 3rd (1st), 3rd (8th*), 4th (3rd), 6th (5th), 8th (17th*), 10th (9th)

* - played <30 games
** - spent most of season in HFD, his scoring and role dropped in PIT
*** - injured in PO
**** - the TOR season

How on Earth is Francis playoff disappointment? He rose above his regular season play more than Selanne, who never did it.

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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Oh really? Selanne has 6 top10 goal scoring finishes and 2 (two) of them came with Kariya. 98-99 and 96-97(Kariya 69gp)
Woot, Bondra has 6 top 10 goalscoring finishes (1st, 1st, 4th, 4th, 6th, 8th), three of those with Oates. That's basically the level of Selanne's goalscoring.

Besides...

Francis
G:
A: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 9th, 10th, 10th, 10th, 15th, 16th, 17th
PTS: 4th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 9th, 11th, 12th, 15th, 17th, 17th, 20th, 20th

Selanne
G: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 10th, 16th, 17th, 18th,
A: 4th, 7th, 9th, 9th,
P: 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 11th, 13th, 19th,

6 times in top 10 goals (and 4 times in assists) vs. 12 times top 10 assists? 9 top 20s in points vs. 12? Selanne wasn't really a better offensive player.

EDIT:

Bonus top 10s in playoffs...

Francis
G: 5th,
A: 1st, 3rd, 7th, 8th
PTS: 3rd, 3rd, 8th

Selanne
G:
A: 6th
PTS: 7th

Selanne is once again close to Bondra and his sole 3rd in PO goals...


Last edited by MadArcand: 08-15-2010 at 08:02 AM.
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08-15-2010, 08:01 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Regarding Francis' placements in team playoff scoring...

(regular season finish in parentheses)

Francis: 1st (2nd), 1st (1st), 2nd (1st), 2nd (1st), 2nd (4th), 3rd (1st), 3rd (8th), 3rd (3rd), 3rd (2nd), 6th (4th**), 6th (2nd), 7th (2nd), 7th (3rd***), 9th (6th****), 11th (3rd), 11th (4th***), 12th (2nd***)
Selanne: 1st (1st), 1st (1st), 2nd (1st), 3rd (1st), 3rd (1st), 3rd (8th*), 4th (3rd), 6th (5th), 8th (17th*), 10th (9th)

* - played <30 games
** - spent most of season in HFD, his scoring and role dropped in PIT
*** - injured in PO
**** - the TOR season

How on Earth is Francis playoff disappointment? He rose above his regular season play more than Selanne, who never did it.
Did anyone call Francis a playoff disappointment? If they did, I missed it.

Quote:
Woot, Bondra has 6 top 10 goalscoring finishes (1st, 1st, 4th, 4th, 6th, 8th), three of those with Oates. That's basically the level of Selanne's goalscoring.

Besides...

Francis
G:
A: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 9th, 10th, 10th, 10th, 15th, 16th, 17th
PTS: 4th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 9th, 11th, 12th, 15th, 17th, 17th, 20th, 20th

Selanne
G: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 10th, 16th, 17th, 18th,
A: 4th, 7th, 9th, 9th,
P: 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 11th, 13th, 19th,

6 times in top 10 goals (and 4 times in assists) vs. 12 times top 10 assists? 9 top 20s in points vs. 12? Selanne wasn't really a better offensive player.
Honestly, I don't see how anyone who watched the careers of these two players could possibly dispute the fact that Selanne was a better offensive player.

But even looking at those stats, the only advantage Francis has is longevity.

Even forgetting the fact that Francis's "best" 4 points finishes can at least be partly attributed to playing with Jagr, these are their points finishes if you remove duplicates:

Selanne: 2nd, 2nd, 7th, 13th, 19th
Francis: 4th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 17th, 17th, 20th, 20th

Then consider that goals are statistically more valuable than assists and Selanne looks even better in peak offense. Francis has more top 20 finishes because he played at a high level for longer, but I can't see the argument that Francis is better offensively than Selanne.

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08-15-2010, 08:04 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post

Francis
G:
A: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 9th, 10th, 10th, 10th, 15th, 16th, 17th
PTS: 4th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 9th, 11th, 12th, 15th, 17th, 17th, 20th, 20th

Selanne
G: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 10th, 16th, 17th, 18th,
A: 4th, 7th, 9th, 9th,
P: 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 11th, 13th, 19th,

6 times in top 10 goals (and 4 times in assists) vs. 12 times top 10 assists? 9 top 20s in points vs. 12? Selanne wasn't really a better offensive player.
It's easier to finish higher in point scoring as a primary playmaker because there are roughly ~1.6 assists per goal scored.

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08-15-2010, 08:08 AM
  #68
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I do see it. Selanne's peak is higher, but Francis was just a bit below in peak and maintained much better career production. Peak isn't the holy grail of hockey, and I'll take a player who plays at elite level for 15 years over one who plays on superstar for 3 years, elite for 5 and average for 5 more.

Of course if you prefer peak you can say Selanne was better offensively, a bit. But that edge is ridiculously small compared to the chasm that exists between them in defensive play and intangibles.

Francis was easily the better player overall.

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08-15-2010, 08:13 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I do see it. Selanne's peak is higher, but Francis was just a bit below in peak and maintained much better career production. Peak isn't the holy grail of hockey, and I'll take a player who plays at elite level for 15 years over one who plays on superstar for 3 years, elite for 5 and average for 5 more.

Of course if you prefer peak you can say Selanne was better offensively, a bit. But that edge is ridiculously small compared to the chasm that exists between them in defensive play and intangibles.

Francis was easily the better player overall.
Francis was not "just a bit below" in peak offense. Francis never really came close to the offensive level Selanne reached. Selanne was a Hart finalist, based on offense alone!

I realize that longevity is important, but when dealing with players who really weren't all that close in their peak, I don't see how it is overriding. Francis was a very good and very productive offensive player, but Selanne's offense was gamebreaking.

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08-15-2010, 08:26 AM
  #70
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Francis was not "just a bit below" in peak offense. Francis never really came close to the offensive level Selanne reached. Selanne was a Hart finalist, based on offense alone!
The raw numbers disagree with that (even though you could blame Jagr for that).

Regardless, the gap is far, far smaller than the defensive/intangibles gap.

Quote:
I realize that longevity is important, but when dealing with players who really weren't all that close in their peak, I don't see how it is overriding. Francis was a very good and very productive offensive player, but Selanne's offense was gamebreaking.
Gamebreaking?! Selanne didn't achieve diddlysquat in playoffs on his own merit. Francis raised his game there and was *truly* gamebreaking. He led a cup winner in assists for Christ's sake. Francis' broken foot in '96 cost Pens a finals and possible Cup. He took a lottery-level team to finals. That's gamebreaking, not riding his defensemen's and goalie's coattails en route to a Cup. Selanne's oh-so-awesome ability to score a lot of points in regular season and lead his teams nowhere is not gamebreaking. A gamebreaking player should lead his team to success.


Last edited by MadArcand: 08-15-2010 at 08:33 AM.
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08-15-2010, 09:07 AM
  #71
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The raw numbers disagree with that (even though you could blame Jagr for that).
So basically statistical smoke 15 years after the fact to try to prove Francis was better than he actually was? I saw Francis play in Pittsburgh and Selanne in Anaheim. There is no doubt in my mind who the better offensive player was, and it wasn't close. And it isn't just me - the writers who vote on the Hart Trophy and Post-season all-stars agree.

Shouldn't Francis have been at least a 2nd team all-star once with his offensive finishes, given the fact that he had better defensive ability and intangibles than the rest of the players who finished around him in the scoring? He didn't get one because everyone who watched hockey knew that, while he was a very productive offensive player in his own right, his point totals were inflated by playing with the guy who was the best offensive player of the era (Jagr), except when an even better offensive player was healthy (Lemieux), who just happened to play on the same team.... a team that was the most run and gun team in the league.

Quote:
Regardless, the gap is far, far smaller than the defensive/intangibles gap.
True, but at some point, a great forward should be able to score. I think the offensive gap between Ovechkin and Zach Parise is smaller than the defensive/intangible gap, but I think Ovechkin is obviously the better player.


Quote:
Gamebreaking?! Selanne didn't achieve diddlysquat in playoffs on his own merit. Francis raised his game there and was *truly* gamebreaking. He led a cup winner in assists for Christ's sake. Francis' broken foot in '96 cost Pens a finals and possible Cup. He took a lottery-level team to finals. That's gamebreaking, not riding his defensemen's and goalie's coattails en route to a Cup. Selanne's oh-so-awesome ability to score a lot of points in regular season and lead his teams nowhere is not gamebreaking. A gamebreaking player should lead his team to success.
Nobody disputes that Francis has the better player record, though he really only has the 2002 run outside of Pittsburgh that is worth talking about.

Francis led the 80s Whalers as far as Selanne led the late 90s Ducks. If anything, the Whalers were a better team than the Ducks. I do agree that Selanne's playoff record is very underwhelming for a player of his calibre, though. With a solid playoff record, Selanne is probably a consensus top 100 player.

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08-15-2010, 09:40 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Shouldn't Francis have been at least a 2nd team all-star once with his offensive finishes,
I agree with you that Selanne, especially in his peak, was a better offensive player than Francis.

However comparing all star selections at wing vs. center isn't super fair.. the depth at center in the nhl at pretty much all times is much stiffer than wing.

I mean in his best season Francis was up against Lemieux and Sakic who beat him in points as well as prime level Lindros and Forsberg. That is tough company.

I still maintain that for career Francis is an easy win over Selanne though..

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08-15-2010, 09:56 AM
  #73
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I agree with you that Selanne, especially in his peak, was a better offensive player than Francis.

However comparing all star selections at wing vs. center isn't super fair.. the depth at center in the nhl at pretty much all times is much stiffer than wing.

I mean in his best season Francis was up against Lemieux and Sakic who beat him in points as well as prime level Lindros and Forsberg. That is tough company.
I am aware that competition at center is much tougher. But still, Francis has zero first or second team all-stars. In 1995-96, Sakic was 1 single ahead of Francis and was not yet regarded as a good two-way player like Francis was. And yet, Sakic got the 2nd team all-star and Francis didn't. It's because everyone knew that Francis was racking up assists playing with the 2 best offensive players in the league.

Quote:
I still maintain that for career Francis is an easy win over Selanne though..
I really don't see how it can be an "easy" win for either player, unless you are just counting the number of productive seasons. It's not like Selanne has had a truncated career or anything. You're looking at 9 top 20 seasons for Selanne (in points) vs. 12 top 20 seasons for Francis - not really that big a difference. Francis has the longevity advantage, of course, but not so much that it makes it an "easy" win for career, I don't think.

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08-15-2010, 10:02 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I really don't see how it can be an "easy" win for either player, unless you are just counting the number of productive seasons. It's not like Selanne has had a truncated career or anything. You're looking at 9 top 20 seasons for Selanne (in points) vs. 12 top 20 seasons for Francis - not really that big a difference. Francis has the longevity advantage, of course, but not so much that it makes it an "easy" win for career, I don't think.
If the point production is even in the same ball park then (just in my opinion obviously) Francis' defense, leadership and playoff performance in comparison to Selanne makes it an easy decision.

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08-15-2010, 10:16 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Gamebreaking?! Selanne didn't achieve diddlysquat in playoffs on his own merit. Francis raised his game there and was *truly* gamebreaking. He led a cup winner in assists for Christ's sake. Francis' broken foot in '96 cost Pens a finals and possible Cup. He took a lottery-level team to finals. That's gamebreaking, not riding his defensemen's and goalie's coattails en route to a Cup. Selanne's oh-so-awesome ability to score a lot of points in regular season and lead his teams nowhere is not gamebreaking. A gamebreaking player should lead his team to success.
Not only does Selanne's international record probably make up for his perceived playoff record, but Selanne simply played on some horrendous teams. It's no coincidence that Selanne has been pretty decent for the Ducks in the playoffs this time around, and that's despite his age. Selanne also didn't ride anything en route to a cup. He played a central role in that victory, but that gets forgotten because Ryan Getzlaf had his coming out party and the shutdown line decided to come within 9 goals of matching their collective regular season totals.

I'm a major Ron Francis fan, he's probably my favorite non-Duck of all-time, and I know you're a huge Francis fan. What I don't understand is why a Ron Francis fan would come in and bash a guy because he didn't have great success on a crappy team when no player seems to get punished for being on a bad team in an all-time context more than Ronnie Franchise.

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