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Selšnne vs Francis

View Poll Results: ?
Selšnne 55 54.46%
Francis 39 38.61%
Even 7 6.93%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-15-2010, 10:22 AM
  #76
Fredrik_71
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This poll is so close that I have to go with what my heart tells me. If I was a GM and had to chose on of these players I would have chosen Selšnne. I really like his play and I would have made shure he fixed he knees the same season he injured them. And voila he would have approx 200 points more at this stage.

/Cheers

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08-15-2010, 10:26 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
If the point production is even in the same ball park then (just in my opinion obviously) Francis' defense, leadership and playoff performance in comparison to Selanne makes it an easy decision.
I've never really liked this train of thought, as it's akin to basically saying that Patrick Sharp is easily better than Dany Heatley. If they're dead even offensively(which Selanne and Francis aren't), absolutely tie goes to the rest, but I really don't like it when guys claim that one guy, who is sort of close offensively, but not really that much, is easily better because of defensive abilities, leadership and playoff performance. Unless the offensive guy's Pavel Bure minus the playoff performances, then that's typically not the case.

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08-15-2010, 10:42 AM
  #78
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This is a lot more difficult. Sniper vs. Playmaker.

Still taking the Franchise

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08-15-2010, 10:50 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So basically statistical smoke 15 years after the fact to try to prove Francis was better than he actually was? I saw Francis play in Pittsburgh and Selanne in Anaheim. There is no doubt in my mind who the better offensive player was, and it wasn't close. And it isn't just me - the writers who vote on the Hart Trophy and Post-season all-stars agree.

Shouldn't Francis have been at least a 2nd team all-star once with his offensive finishes, given the fact that he had better defensive ability and intangibles than the rest of the players who finished around him in the scoring? He didn't get one because everyone who watched hockey knew that, while he was a very productive offensive player in his own right, his point totals were inflated by playing with the guy who was the best offensive player of the era (Jagr), except when an even better offensive player was healthy (Lemieux), who just happened to play on the same team.... a team that was the most run and gun team in the league.
Quote:
Nobody disputes that Francis has the better player record, though he really only has the 2002 run outside of Pittsburgh that is worth talking about.
You're making him look like a leech, while he was basically the Pens' Kurri. Being the third star forward doesn't mean one is automatically a product of the others. He *led* the Pens in assists en route to their second Cup. He was an integral part of dynasty-quality team, a top-3 player. Diminishing him because he happened to have even better, generational players on his team isn't fair.


Quote:
True, but at some point, a great forward should be able to score. I think the offensive gap between Ovechkin and Zach Parise is smaller than the defensive/intangible gap, but I think Ovechkin is obviously the better player.
Yes, but your analogy fails hard. Ovechkin is akin to the Jagrs of Selannes era. Selanne isn't even close to him. You could use that argument to support that Jagr is better than Francis (obviously), but not Selanne. Selanne wasn't ever top-2, which is what Ovechkin has been pretty much all the time. And Parise is poor comparison to Francis as well.

Quote:
Francis led the 80s Whalers as far as Selanne led the late 90s Ducks. If anything, the Whalers were a better team than the Ducks. I do agree that Selanne's playoff record is very underwhelming for a player of his calibre, though. With a solid playoff record, Selanne is probably a consensus top 100 player.
Team win percentages (due to loser points being a pain in the 99-00+ years and hurting Selanne...):

Francis' teams:
Whalers: .263, .238, .350, .375, .500*, .538*, .438*, .463*, .475*, .388* (traded to PIT)
Pens: .513* (came from HFD), .488*, .667*, .524*, .604*, .598*, .463*, .488*
Canes: .415*, .451, .463*, .427*, .268, .341 (traded to TOR)
Leafs: .549* (came from CAR)

Selanne's teams:
Jets: .476*, .286, .333, .439* (traded to ANA)
Ducks: .427 (came from WIN), .439*, .317, .427*, .417, .305 (traded to SJ)
Sharks: .488* (came from ANA), .537*, .341
Avs: .488*
Ducks: .524*, .585*, .573*, .512*, .477

*- playoff years for the teams

(traded years count as .5 year for each team in the table below)
Francis' teams:
sub-.250: 1
.251-.300: 2
.301-.350: 1.5
.351-.400: 1.5
.401-.450: 3
.451-.500: 8
.501-.550: 3.5
.551-.600: 1
.601+: 2

Selanne's teams:
sub-.250: 0
.251-.300: 1
.301-.350: 3.5
.351-.400: 0
.401-.450: 4
.451-.500: 3.5
.501-.550: 3
.551-.600: 2
.601+: 0


Doesn't seem like Francis played for better Whalers teams, hell, their teams seem pretty similar over the course of their careers...

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Old
08-15-2010, 10:52 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Not only does Selanne's international record probably make up for his perceived playoff record, but Selanne simply played on some horrendous teams. It's no coincidence that Selanne has been pretty decent for the Ducks in the playoffs this time around, and that's despite his age. Selanne also didn't ride anything en route to a cup. He played a central role in that victory, but that gets forgotten because Ryan Getzlaf had his coming out party and the shutdown line decided to come within 9 goals of matching their collective regular season totals.

I'm a major Ron Francis fan, he's probably my favorite non-Duck of all-time, and I know you're a huge Francis fan. What I don't understand is why a Ron Francis fan would come in and bash a guy because he didn't have great success on a crappy team when no player seems to get punished for being on a bad team in an all-time context more than Ronnie Franchise.
But see, the point is that while their teams have been largely a wash (see a post above), Francis outplays Selanne badly in the postseason.

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08-15-2010, 11:12 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
but I really don't like it when guys claim that one guy, who is sort of close offensively, but not really that much, is easily better because of defensive abilities, leadership and playoff performance. Unless the offensive guy's Pavel Bure minus the playoff performances, then that's typically not the case.
You're entitled to your opinion but I'm entitled to mine.

I'll take a guy with a 15 year long consistent two way game with leadership who shows up in the playoffs over a guy who burned more brightly for a few regular seasons based on offensive but was worse in overall game in a bunch of seasons.

Unless you were hypothetically going for the cup THIS year and both were in their primes then obviously you'd take the better peak player.

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08-15-2010, 11:20 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
But see, the point is that while their teams have been largely a wash (see a post above), Francis outplays Selanne badly in the postseason.
When you put it that way, of course they seem like a wash. Does that look at the individual talent on those teams, though, and the answer is absolutely not. In Anaheim, there was just two great players, and one of the most embarassing supporting casts the NHL has probably ever seen. Now, Francis didn't have a Kariya, but he did have some talent around him, and it probably wasn't as pathetic as Anaheim of the late 90s.

However, that's not the point. The main point is, Francis really didn't do much away from the Penguins, just as Selanne didn't do much away from the post-lockout Ducks, and we all know the reason why. Not only that, but as I mentioned, Selanne has an incredible international record, so let's not jump to conclusions and imply that he's not a big game player, he very well can be. Now, for starters, I don't know if I'd say Francis badly outperformed Selanne in the playoffs. Obviously he did, but it's not at the point where we can go absolutely crazy about it. Add in that international record, and yeah, let's not get too carried away about it.

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08-15-2010, 11:31 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
However, that's not the point. The main point is, Francis really didn't do much away from the Penguins, just as Selanne didn't do much away from the post-lockout Ducks, and we all know the reason why. Not only that, but as I mentioned, Selanne has an incredible international record, so let's not jump to conclusions and imply that he's not a big game player, he very well can be. Now, for starters, I don't know if I'd say Francis badly outperformed Selanne in the playoffs. Obviously he did, but it's not at the point where we can go absolutely crazy about it. Add in that international record, and yeah, let's not get too carried away about it.
Francis did take Carolina to the finals as a 38 year old and had pretty much as good a playoff at 38 as Selanne has had in his entire career.

It really is a pretty big gap.

And what is it about Selanne's international record that helps him against Francis?

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08-15-2010, 11:32 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
You're entitled to your opinion but I'm entitled to mine.

I'll take a guy with a 15 year long consistent two way game with leadership who shows up in the playoffs over a guy who burned more brightly for a few regular seasons based on offensive but was worse in overall game in a bunch of seasons.

Unless you were hypothetically going for the cup THIS year and both were in their primes then obviously you'd take the better peak player.
Obviously we're entitled to our own opinions. I'm just saying, I hear that said a lot on this board and in the ATD, and it just seems like one of those things that's nice in theory, but really isn't the case. Like I said, it's like saying Sharp is easily better than Heatley, it's just not true.

Now I'm not saying there's no way you take Francis, but you're selling Selanne short here. For starters, "burned more brightly" is the understatement of the thread. I love Ronnie to death, but to say he burned brightly would probably be inaccurate. Meanwhile, Selanne at his peak was probably a top-5 player in the game, if not top-3. You also make it sound like Selanne was a major playoff choke artist who was horrible defensively and a terrible leader. None of those things are true at all. NHL post-season play and his defensive abilities aren't Selanne's strong suits, but they're not these major flaws either, as some like to think. And Selanne's a great leader, and always has been. Obviously not on a Ron Francis level(few NHLers ever were), but still very good. Selanne also has very good career value. On a Francis level, absolutely not, few do. But this is a guy who has a legitimate chance to surpass Jagr as the highest goalscoring European of all-time(as long as Jagr doesn't come back, of course), and has some very nice totals. A lot of people give Francis credit for his amazing longevity, but how about Selanne being 7th in the league in goals per game at age 39? That's absolutely amazing, and he doesn't look like he's slowing down anytime soon.

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Old
08-15-2010, 11:35 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
When you put it that way, of course they seem like a wash. Does that look at the individual talent on those teams, though, and the answer is absolutely not. In Anaheim, there was just two great players, and one of the most embarassing supporting casts the NHL has probably ever seen. Now, Francis didn't have a Kariya, but he did have some talent around him, and it probably wasn't as pathetic as Anaheim of the late 90s.

However, that's not the point. The main point is, Francis really didn't do much away from the Penguins, just as Selanne didn't do much away from the post-lockout Ducks, and we all know the reason why. Not only that, but as I mentioned, Selanne has an incredible international record, so let's not jump to conclusions and imply that he's not a big game player, he very well can be. Now, for starters, I don't know if I'd say Francis badly outperformed Selanne in the playoffs. Obviously he did, but it's not at the point where we can go absolutely crazy about it. Add in that international record, and yeah, let's not get too carried away about it.
I wouldn't call the Ducks' supporting cast that extremely pathetic on his first go around - Hebert, Rucchin, Tverdovsky, Olausson, Mironov, Young, Sandstrom, Kurri, Green, Salei, Donato, McInnis, Titov, Friesen, Giguere. It's lousy, but 'one of the most embarassing suporting casts the NHL has ever seen' is stretching it.

Besides, games aren't played on paper, and the teams' performance itself is more relevant.

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08-15-2010, 11:37 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Francis did take Carolina to the finals as a 38 year old and had pretty much as good a playoff at 38 as Selanne has had in his entire career.

It really is a pretty big gap.

And what is it about Selanne's international record that helps him against Francis?
Well, when we're talking about playoff record, the thing you're obviously trying to prove is big game ability. And Selanne, at any international stage, has typically been quite good. You don't become the all-time Olympic point leader by being a choke artist. Now, Francis doesn't blow anyone away with his playoff record, so for him to badly outplay Selanne in the postseason, you're basically saying Selanne's a choker. I'm saying that's not the case at all.

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08-15-2010, 11:37 AM
  #87
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close one. selanne for me i think

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08-15-2010, 11:52 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
You don't become the all-time Olympic point leader by being a choke artist.
In Selanne's case you get there by being a good player and having the opportunity to play a lot of games.

Quote:
Now, Francis doesn't blow anyone away with his playoff record, so for him to badly outplay Selanne in the postseason, you're basically saying Selanne's a choker. I'm saying that's not the case at all.
Selanne is very underwhelming if you compare his regular season results to his playoffs.. he has never raised his game in the NHL playoffs.

He has never been above a ppg in any playoff year and generally has been well below.

Even in his best playoff year on a cup winner his regular season went from

82 gp, 48g, 46a, 94pts. .59 goals per game and 1.15 ppg.
21 gp, 5g, 10a, 15pts .24 goals per game and .71 ppg.

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08-15-2010, 11:52 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I wouldn't call the Ducks' supporting cast that extremely pathetic on his first go around - Hebert, Rucchin, Tverdovsky, Olausson, Mironov, Young, Sandstrom, Kurri, Green, Salei, Donato, McInnis, Titov, Friesen, Giguere. It's lousy, but 'one of the most embarassing suporting casts the NHL has ever seen' is stretching it.

Besides, games aren't played on paper, and the teams' performance itself is more relevant.
It's kind of funny, because the way you put it, a person would think that all of these guys all played together with the dynamic duo. In reality, other than Hebert, Rucchin, Salei and McInnis, none of those guys played more than 2 seasons with Selanne in Anaheim, and many of them played basically 1. Hell, Friesen never played with Selanne, and Giguere just broke in the year Selanne was traded. Not only that, but most of these guys were quite bad in Anaheim. The defensemen were not the worst, but they had maybe one season together(that doesn't include Mironov). And some guys, a lot of those guys, actually, were downright terrible in Anaheim. It really was an embarassing supporting cast, and it still amazes me how those teams made the playoffs twice.

Also, you're right, they aren't played on paper. The teams' performance was a lot more relevent, and it was more than clear that the only reason those teams did as good as they did is because of the dynamic duo, and not because of the supporting cast. Losing just one of them dropped them from a decent playoff team who gave the champs a tough test to bottom 5 in the league.

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08-15-2010, 11:57 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
It's kind of funny, because the way you put it, a person would think that all of these guys all played together with the dynamic duo. In reality, other than Hebert, Rucchin, Salei and McInnis, none of those guys played more than 2 seasons with Selanne in Anaheim, and many of them played basically 1. Hell, Friesen never played with Selanne, and Giguere just broke in the year Selanne was traded. Not only that, but most of these guys were quite bad in Anaheim. The defensemen were not the worst, but they had maybe one season together(that doesn't include Mironov). And some guys, a lot of those guys, actually, were downright terrible in Anaheim. It really was an embarassing supporting cast, and it still amazes me how those teams made the playoffs twice.

Also, you're right, they aren't played on paper. The teams' performance was a lot more relevent, and it was more than clear that the only reason those teams did as good as they did is because of the dynamic duo, and not because of the supporting cast. Losing just one of them dropped them from a decent playoff team who gave the champs a tough test to bottom 5 in the league.
True enough. Yes, it was just Kariya, Selanne, Hebert and Rucchin who were actually good there. The defense usually was passable. Offensive depth was horrible.

But the 80s Whalers were nothing to write home about either, truly.

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08-15-2010, 03:23 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
In Selanne's case you get there by being a good player and having the opportunity to play a lot of games.
Yep, I'd guess that also.. Every "good" player who plays in a lot of olympics can make the most points twice (1998 and 2006) and twice the most goals (1992 and 2006). Too easy if you just get the chance.. Still not voting for either.

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08-15-2010, 03:23 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
It's kind of funny, because the way you put it, a person would think that all of these guys all played together with the dynamic duo. In reality, other than Hebert, Rucchin, Salei and McInnis, none of those guys played more than 2 seasons with Selanne in Anaheim, and many of them played basically 1. Hell, Friesen never played with Selanne, and Giguere just broke in the year Selanne was traded. Not only that, but most of these guys were quite bad in Anaheim. The defensemen were not the worst, but they had maybe one season together(that doesn't include Mironov). And some guys, a lot of those guys, actually, were downright terrible in Anaheim. It really was an embarassing supporting cast, and it still amazes me how those teams made the playoffs twice.

Also, you're right, they aren't played on paper. The teams' performance was a lot more relevent, and it was more than clear that the only reason those teams did as good as they did is because of the dynamic duo, and not because of the supporting cast. Losing just one of them dropped them from a decent playoff team who gave the champs a tough test to bottom 5 in the league.

Yeah, I find it funny that he lists Friesen as supporting cast, when Jeff was one of the players traded to Anaheim in exchange for Selanne.

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08-15-2010, 03:27 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
You're making him look like a leech, while he was basically the Pens' Kurri. Being the third star forward doesn't mean one is automatically a product of the others. He *led* the Pens in assists en route to their second Cup. He was an integral part of dynasty-quality team, a top-3 player. Diminishing him because he happened to have even better, generational players on his team isn't fair.



Yes, but your analogy fails hard. Ovechkin is akin to the Jagrs of Selannes era. Selanne isn't even close to him. You could use that argument to support that Jagr is better than Francis (obviously), but not Selanne. Selanne wasn't ever top-2, which is what Ovechkin has been pretty much all the time. And Parise is poor comparison to Francis as well.


Team win percentages (due to loser points being a pain in the 99-00+ years and hurting Selanne...):

Francis' teams:
Whalers: .263, .238, .350, .375, .500*, .538*, .438*, .463*, .475*, .388* (traded to PIT)
Pens: .513* (came from HFD), .488*, .667*, .524*, .604*, .598*, .463*, .488*
Canes: .415*, .451, .463*, .427*, .268, .341 (traded to TOR)
Leafs: .549* (came from CAR)

Selanne's teams:
Jets: .476*, .286, .333, .439* (traded to ANA)
Ducks: .427 (came from WIN), .439*, .317, .427*, .417, .305 (traded to SJ)
Sharks: .488* (came from ANA), .537*, .341
Avs: .488*
Ducks: .524*, .585*, .573*, .512*, .477

*- playoff years for the teams

(traded years count as .5 year for each team in the table below)
Francis' teams:
sub-.250: 1
.251-.300: 2
.301-.350: 1.5
.351-.400: 1.5
.401-.450: 3
.451-.500: 8
.501-.550: 3.5
.551-.600: 1
.601+: 2

Selanne's teams:
sub-.250: 0
.251-.300: 1
.301-.350: 3.5
.351-.400: 0
.401-.450: 4
.451-.500: 3.5
.501-.550: 3
.551-.600: 2
.601+: 0


Doesn't seem like Francis played for better Whalers teams, hell, their teams seem pretty similar over the course of their careers...
I'm sure at least part of the reason those Ducks teams had better records was because they had a Hart-finalist-calibre Teemu Selanne helping to carry the load.

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08-15-2010, 03:50 PM
  #94
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Yep, I'd guess that also.. Every "good" player who plays in a lot of olympics can make the most points twice (1998 and 2006) and twice the most goals (1992 and 2006). Too easy if you just get the chance.. Still not voting for either.
My point is that it is being brought up to show how good he is in big games but some of the players he has passed like Kharlamov played what.. half the number of games and has 2 less points?

It doesn't really say a lot and doesn't mean much of anything in a comparison against Francis who didn't get a chance because of Canada's depth.

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08-15-2010, 03:53 PM
  #95
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I would pick francis just based on his whalers and hurricanes career. The gap between them seems big to me. Selanne had a good peak, but francis had the better two way game and playoffs, that more then nullifies whatever selanne did with the ducks.

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08-15-2010, 04:56 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm sure at least part of the reason those Ducks teams had better records was because they had a Hart-finalist-calibre Teemu Selanne helping to carry the load.
Exactly how many Hart-finalist seasons did he have? Wouldn't it be about the same as the mighty Yashin had? And couldn't it be the case that the Ducks had another, superior player playing alongside Selanne most of the time? Stop making Selanne into something he never was.

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08-15-2010, 05:25 PM
  #97
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My point is that it is being brought up to show how good he is in big games but some of the players he has passed like Kharlamov played what.. half the number of games and has 2 less points?
17 vs 25 or so, but it should also be considered that Kharlamov played all his games against amateurs, whereas Selanne was (apart from 92) playing against pros.

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08-15-2010, 06:41 PM
  #98
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I can not believe their i seven a question on who is better. Selanne or Francis.

Selanne: Was a good winger. HE had a rookie season like no other and to me was a guy who should have had more goals and points then he does. Yes he was fast and could score. He had skill and one of the best Finnish players to play in the NHL. I loved watching Selanne play and liked the fact that he was not afraid of the physical contact along the boards. With all due respect to every one her. COME on has anyone ever seen Francis play.

Francis is one of the best all round centers to play this game in the last 30 years. He was awesome with Hartford a team that was carried by him to a degree. If it wasn't for Francis the Whalers would have left years earlier.

What nobody seems to take into account is this. Why when Francis arrived in Pittsbourgh the Penguins started winning Stanley Cups. Maybe it had to do with the fact he was a leader. He also gave the Penguins that second line center to take the pressure off of Lemieux. Yes for those few years he was a second line center but unless your name was Gretzky any center would have been behind Lemieux. The minute Francis arrived in Pittsbourgh he made them champions. I compare Francis to what he did for the Penguins to what Messier did for the Oilers in 1984. They both played well in the playoffs and delivered timely goals but at the same time made it hard for the opposition to zone in on the star center

Selanne is a good winger but does not belong even being compared to Francis. Francis made players around him better. If you asked any GM in the league and if they were building a team or needed just on eplayer to win the cup they would all pick Francis. Not even Selanne's mother would pick him over Francis. When I think of the 20 best forwards in the last 30 years. Francis would either be there or strongly considered. Selanne would even have a chance.

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08-15-2010, 07:12 PM
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When I think of the 20 best forwards in the last 30 years. Francis would either be there or strongly considered. Selanne would even have a chance.
Hm, out of curiostity I'd like to see that HHOF monitor persons list of forwards who started in 80 or later. And I while I voted for Francis in this poll due to his longevity and overall career, I don't think the players are really that far apart.

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08-15-2010, 08:24 PM
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I can not believe their i seven a question on who is better. Selanne or Francis.

Selanne: Was a good winger. HE had a rookie season like no other and to me was a guy who should have had more goals and points then he does. Yes he was fast and could score. He had skill and one of the best Finnish players to play in the NHL. I loved watching Selanne play and liked the fact that he was not afraid of the physical contact along the boards. With all due respect to every one her. COME on has anyone ever seen Francis play.

Francis is one of the best all round centers to play this game in the last 30 years. He was awesome with Hartford a team that was carried by him to a degree. If it wasn't for Francis the Whalers would have left years earlier.

What nobody seems to take into account is this. Why when Francis arrived in Pittsbourgh the Penguins started winning Stanley Cups. Maybe it had to do with the fact he was a leader. He also gave the Penguins that second line center to take the pressure off of Lemieux. Yes for those few years he was a second line center but unless your name was Gretzky any center would have been behind Lemieux. The minute Francis arrived in Pittsbourgh he made them champions. I compare Francis to what he did for the Penguins to what Messier did for the Oilers in 1984. They both played well in the playoffs and delivered timely goals but at the same time made it hard for the opposition to zone in on the star center

Selanne is a good winger but does not belong even being compared to Francis. Francis made players around him better. If you asked any GM in the league and if they were building a team or needed just on eplayer to win the cup they would all pick Francis. Not even Selanne's mother would pick him over Francis. When I think of the 20 best forwards in the last 30 years. Francis would either be there or strongly considered. Selanne would even have a chance.
Francis is indeed one of the best "all-round" centers of the last 30 years. But Selanne is just a "good winger?" Utterly laughable. Selanne himself is one of the best scoring wings of the last 30 years.

If Gms really would pick Francis over Selanne, then clearly they would be willing to pay more money for Francis's services. And the reality is, I'm pretty sure that Selanne was the higher paid player by quite a bit.

Francis was definitely the biggest "missing piece" in Pittsburgh, however.

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