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Selšnne vs Francis

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Selšnne 55 54.46%
Francis 39 38.61%
Even 7 6.93%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-16-2010, 02:21 PM
  #126
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Ok, name them. I'm actually curious to see your list.
I agree. Name 30 better scoring wingers than Selanne in the past 30 years. And I mean "better overall." No naming Bondras, who were clearly worse overall players.

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08-16-2010, 02:33 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I agree. Name 30 better scoring wingers than Selanne in the past 30 years. And I mean "better overall." No naming Bondras, who were clearly worse overall players.
That's obviously not possible, he's underselling him there.

Off top of my head:

Better:
Bossy
Makarov
Jagr
Kurri
Hull
Shanahan
Ovechkin

About equals:
Iginla
Neely
Bure
St. Louis
Kariya

Selanne is likely top 10, and at worst top 15.

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08-16-2010, 02:37 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
That's obviously not possible, he's underselling him there.

Off top of my head:
Better:
Bossy - agreed
Makarov - agreed
Jagr - agreed
Kurri - agreed
Hull - agreed, but it's close
Shanahan - disagree, Selanne was more of an impact player. I rate Iginla over Shanahan by this point, among power forwards.
Ovechkin - agreed

About equals:
Iginla - agree, about equal
Neely - disagree, I don't give Neely credit for what he "could have done"
Bure - agree, about equal, though I give a slight edge to Selanne
St. Louis - disagree, lacks Selanne's longevity for now
Kariya - disagree, lacks Selanne's longevity

Quote:
Selanne is likely top 10, and at worst top 15.
I think Selanne is definitely top 10 among scoring wingers for the past 30 years, though also definitely not top 5.

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08-16-2010, 02:44 PM
  #129
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While Selanne's offense beats Shanahan's, I wouldn't say he was more of impact player or clearly better player overall. Perhaps on same level.

Neely, St.Louis and Kariya all had peaks that easily compare to or even beat Selanne's, but yeah longetivity plays in his favor there.

I actually think that Selanne tends to suffer in people's eyes due to his weird career curve - incredible start, huge disappointment afterwards, resurgence to a top player in Anaheim, utter crap in SJ and Colorado and eventually back to a very good player post-lockout.

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08-16-2010, 02:45 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Better:

Shanahan - disagree, Selanne was more of an impact player. I rate Iginla over Shanahan by this point, among power forwards.
Off topic but wow... really? Why?

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08-16-2010, 02:54 PM
  #131
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Off topic but wow... really? Why?
I place a lot of value on peak performance.

Iginla was 1st, 3rd, and 8th in points and a Hart finalist twice. He (along with Kiprusoff) led a deeply flawed Flames team to within one game of the Cup in 2004.

Shanhanan peaked at 8th and 10th in points and was never a Hart finalist. He was the "missing piece" for the Red Wings, but he was never a top 3 player on their depth charts.

Want to look at goal scoring separately? Shanahan was 5th, 6th, 6th, 9th, 10. Iginla was 1st, 1st, and 3rd, despite never playing with a playmaker as good as Fedorov, Yzerman, or even Janney.

Iginla was a 1st Team All-Star 3 Times, 2nd Team once. Shanahan, despite facing weak competition at LW in the 90s was only a 1st Team All Star twice, 2nd Team once.

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08-16-2010, 02:54 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
While Selanne's offense beats Shanahan's, I wouldn't say he was more of impact player or clearly better player overall. Perhaps on same level.

Neely, St.Louis and Kariya all had peaks that easily compare to or even beat Selanne's, but yeah longetivity plays in his favor there.

I actually think that Selanne tends to suffer in people's eyes due to his weird career curve - incredible start, huge disappointment afterwards, resurgence to a top player in Anaheim, utter crap in SJ and Colorado and eventually back to a very good player post-lockout.
Torn achilles tendon for the first bolded part and knees for the second bolded part. It's weird how people never talk about Selanne when they talk about players "what could have been...". Even before coming to the NHL, he broke his tibia and fibula and was out for a year.

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08-16-2010, 03:01 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I place a lot of value on peak performance.

Iginla was 1st, 3rd, and 8th in points and a Hart finalist twice. He (along with Kiprusoff) led a deeply flawed Flames team to within one game of the Cup in 2004.

Shanhanan peaked at 8th and 10th in points and was never a Hart finalist. He was the "missing piece" for the Red Wings, but he was never a top 3 player on their depth charts.

Want to look at goal scoring separately? Shanahan was 5th, 6th, 6th, 9th, 10. Iginla was 1st, 1st, and 3rd, despite never playing with a playmaker as good as Fedorov, Yzerman, or even Janney.

Iginla was a 1st Team All-Star 3 Times, 2nd Team once. Shanahan, despite facing weak competition at LW in the 90s was only a 1st Team All Star twice, 2nd Team once.
Up until Ovechkin's coming out party I don't see how Shanahan's competition was worse... Robitaille and Stevens were 60 goal scorers and Leclair was a 3 straight 50 goal scorer..

That aside.. you think Iginla is better as a power forward though?

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08-16-2010, 03:07 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Up until Ovechkin's coming out party I don't see how Shanahan's competition was worse... Robitaille and Stevens were 60 goal scorers and Leclair was a 3 straight 50 goal scorer..
Iginla's competition was at RW. Competition at RW has always been better than LW, except for a brief period of time in the O6, and now after the last lockout. LW quality in the 80s and 90s was especially poor, especially compared to C and RW.

It's a minor point though.

Quote:
That aside.. you think Iginla is better as a power forward though?
I think they were/are both somewhat disappointments as power forwards. Both are guys that have been criticized for thinking of themselves too much as fancy forwards and not always doing the dirty work that they are capable of. Neither guy was ever as intimidating as a Neely, for instance.

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08-16-2010, 03:10 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Iginla's competition was at RW. Competition at RW has always been better than LW, except for a brief period of time in the O6, and now after the last lockout. LW quality in the 80s and 90s was especially poor, especially compared to C and RW.
Duh it's Monday.. I guess Jagr is a little better than Leclair.. lol




Quote:
I think they were/are both somewhat disappointments as power forwards. Both are guys that have been criticized for thinking of themselves too much as fancy forwards and not always doing the dirty work that they are capable of. Neither guy was ever as intimidating as a Neely, for instance.
I think earlier in his career Shanahan was a nasty guy to play against.. he started out more enforcer than power forward.

I wonder how much of his mellowing out was due to Detroit's system though.. they didn't want to be killing penalties if they didn't have to.

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08-16-2010, 03:13 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
While Selanne's offense beats Shanahan's, I wouldn't say he was more of impact player or clearly better player overall. Perhaps on same level.

Neely, St.Louis and Kariya all had peaks that easily compare to or even beat Selanne's, but yeah longetivity plays in his favor there.

I actually think that Selanne tends to suffer in people's eyes due to his weird career curve - incredible start, huge disappointment afterwards, resurgence to a top player in Anaheim, utter crap in SJ and Colorado and eventually back to a very good player post-lockout.
I agree.

To me Shanahan is more of an impact player. Offensive numbers can't be viewed in a vacuum. Shanny was a leader and true physical presence in addition to being a great scorer. And a much more consistent player.

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08-16-2010, 03:27 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Ok, name them. I'm actually curious to see your list.
Ok in no particaular order here are wingers that in the past 30 years I would put ahead of Selanne.

Bossy, Kurri, Hull, Jagr, Shanahan, Gartner, Neely, Ciccarelli, Graves, Mullen, Anderson, Lecaire, Iginla, Larmer, Goulet, Heatley, Linden, Naslund, Andreycuk, Moginly.

Off the top of my head these are all wingers that I would take over Selanne in the past 30 years. Tiheir might be even more but you just wanted at least 20. Oh and if you say you would pick Selanne over any of these wingers then either you do not know hockey or are just biased.

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08-16-2010, 03:32 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
Ok in no particaular order here are wingers that in the past 30 years I would put ahead of Selanne.

Bossy, Kurri, Hull, Jagr, Shanahan, Gartner, Neely, Ciccarelli, Graves, Mullen, Anderson, Lecaire, Iginla, Larmer, Goulet, Heatley, Linden, Naslund, Andreycuk, Moginly.

Off the top of my head these are all wingers that I would take over Selanne in the past 30 years. Tiheir might be even more but you just wanted at least 20. Oh and if you say you would pick Selanne over any of these wingers then either you do not know hockey or are just biased.
Some of those names are outright laughable. Adam Graves or Trevor Linden over Selanne? I'm seriously biased or ignorant for not taking Trevor Linden over Selanne?

If you are going for one-dimensional offensive players, Selanne clearly trumps Gartner, Heatley, Naslund, and Mogilny.

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08-16-2010, 03:43 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
Ok in no particaular order here are wingers that in the past 30 years I would put ahead of Selanne.

Bossy, Kurri, Hull, Jagr, Shanahan, Gartner, Neely, Ciccarelli, Graves, Mullen, Anderson, Lecaire, Iginla, Larmer, Goulet, Heatley, Linden, Naslund, Andreycuk, Moginly.

Off the top of my head these are all wingers that I would take over Selanne in the past 30 years. Tiheir might be even more but you just wanted at least 20. Oh and if you say you would pick Selanne over any of these wingers then either you do not know hockey or are just biased.
That's a troll esque list right there.

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08-16-2010, 03:47 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
Ok in no particaular order here are wingers that in the past 30 years I would put ahead of Selanne.

Bossy, Kurri, Hull, Jagr, Shanahan, Gartner, Neely, Ciccarelli, Graves, Mullen, Anderson, Lecaire, Iginla, Larmer, Goulet, Heatley, Linden, Naslund, Andreycuk, Moginly.

Off the top of my head these are all wingers that I would take over Selanne in the past 30 years. Tiheir might be even more but you just wanted at least 20. Oh and if you say you would pick Selanne over any of these wingers then either you do not know hockey or are just biased.
I may be arguing against Selanne in this thread but c'mon...

Graves? Linden?! Heatley?!?

Heatley, Graves and Linden are worlds below Selanne.

Gartner, Ciccarelli, Mullen, Leclair, Larmer, Naslund and Andreychuk are way below Selanne.

And Anderson, Goulet and Mogilny are to me clearly below Selanne, though I can imagine a (very weak) case being made in their favor without being retarded (like it would be for everyone I mentioned above).

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08-16-2010, 04:17 PM
  #141
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Bossy, Makarov, Kurri, Jagr and Ovechkin are all better than Selanne. Kovalchuk is only 27, within 5 years you can probably add him to the list too. However, the rest of the guys mentioned were laughable.

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08-16-2010, 04:23 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Yeah, because absolute numbers with no era context tell us so much...

And yes, no consistent top-10s - 11th and 13th aren't top 10, and one more isolated case in his rookie year (in 92-93 where everyone and their pet frog had career years) doesn't make any difference in that.




Jagr > Kariya, obviously, but the third member was usually a scrub and not bloody Lemieux like many seem intent on to be mistaken...
I forgot to add 97-98... Selanne was 8th in scoring without Kariya, and first in goals with 52! ( and missed 9 games... had he played a full season, this would have been his best chance for the art ross)

you're incredible... you really think Selanne doesn't show consistent offence without Kariya???? (there's a ton of ducks fan that will argue against that)

I've listed 3 seasons where he was in the top 10 without Kariya, and 2 more seasons where he just misses the top 10, but with incredible numbers for a 35+ player... much more impressive than the numbers Francis posted at that age. 90 and 94 points are nothing to scoff at, nor are 11th and 13th place in scoring, especially when you are scoring more goals than a lot of the players in the top 10 with mountains of assists. a 48 goal season, with 46 points at age 35 that lands u 11th in scoring, but third in the race for the rocket... is definitely worthy of discussion, since you think Fracnis' 77 point season in 02' shows such dominance

let a lone the 5 top 10 seasons Selanne did play with Kariya, it's obvious you are just unwilling to backdown from your original Selanne needs kariya to play good comments. or that Selanne and Francis are just completely different type hockey players, and comparing them really requires some creative thinking.

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08-16-2010, 04:55 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Seanconn View Post
I forgot to add 97-98... Selanne was 8th in scoring without Kariya, and first in goals with 52! ( and missed 9 games... had he played a full season, this would have been his best chance for the art ross)

you're incredible... you really think Selanne doesn't show consistent offence without Kariya???? (there's a ton of ducks fan that will argue against that)

I've listed 3 seasons where he was in the top 10 without Kariya, and 2 more seasons where he just misses the top 10, but with incredible numbers for a 35+ player... much more impressive than the numbers Francis posted at that age. 90 and 94 points are nothing to scoff at, nor are 11th and 13th place in scoring, especially when you are scoring more goals than a lot of the players in the top 10 with mountains of assists. a 48 goal season, with 46 points at age 35 that lands u 11th in scoring, but third in the race for the rocket... is definitely worthy of discussion, since you think Fracnis' 77 point season in 02' shows such dominance

let a lone the 5 top 10 seasons Selanne did play with Kariya, it's obvious you are just unwilling to backdown from your original Selanne needs kariya to play good comments. or that Selanne and Francis are just completely different type hockey players, and comparing them really requires some creative thinking.
1. 3 seasons are *not* consistent top 10 offense, no matter how you try to twist it.
2. top 10 offense != good offense
3. Francis' 77 pts in peak of dead puck era adjust to 94, easily comparable to Selanne's post-lockout season.

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08-16-2010, 05:50 PM
  #144
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Quick look at the Hockey Reference show that Selanne in his prime (92-99) was

- second in points overall (behind Jagr)
- first in goals
- second in goals per game (behind only Lemieux)
- fourth in points per game (behind Lemieux, Jagr and Lindros)
- 18th in assists per game (ahead of Larionov, Fedorov, Weight and Sundin, whom are all considered very good playmakers. Fedorov, Sundin and Weight were all about the same age as Selanne for the period, 22-30)

I think that is quite impressive prime and qualifies at least as "good offense".

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

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08-16-2010, 06:05 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
1. 3 seasons are *not* consistent top 10 offense, no matter how you try to twist it.
2. top 10 offense != good offense
3. Francis' 77 pts in peak of dead puck era adjust to 94, easily comparable to Selanne's post-lockout season.
lolol your so focussed on top 10 dude. goals matter more than assists, and selanne has a lot of goals.

so 10 seasons in the top 15 in scoring is not consistent offense? no matter how hard you try and twist it, Selanne is very solid in the offensive department without Paul Kariya, you're kidding yourself if you don't think he would have put up similar numbers if he had never played with Paul once!

hell, he might have posted insane numbers had he played for one of the many teams that were WAY better than the 1990's ducks. Selanne rules, stop hating on him.

Imagine if Selanne had the chance to play with Francis! would have been magical if kariya was on the same line!

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08-16-2010, 06:08 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Bossy, Makarov, Kurri, Jagr and Ovechkin are all better than Selanne. Kovalchuk is only 27, within 5 years you can probably add him to the list too. However, the rest of the guys mentioned were laughable.
Pump the brakes, ushvinder. How does Kovalchuk catch him within 5 years when Kovalchuk has barely been outpacing him in the last 5 years with Selanne consistently on the brink of retirement?

Barring a career renaissance, Kovalchuk is likely a sub-point-per-game player when it's all said and done, and he only briefly touched the Dead Puck Era. As I said yesterday, I don't get this fascination with Kovalchuk relative to Selanne.

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08-16-2010, 06:48 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
Ok in no particaular order here are wingers that in the past 30 years I would put ahead of Selanne.

Bossy, Kurri, Hull, Jagr, Shanahan, Gartner, Neely, Ciccarelli, Graves, Mullen, Anderson, Lecaire, Iginla, Larmer, Goulet, Heatley, Linden, Naslund, Andreycuk, Moginly.

Off the top of my head these are all wingers that I would take over Selanne in the past 30 years. Tiheir might be even more but you just wanted at least 20. Oh and if you say you would pick Selanne over any of these wingers then either you do not know hockey or are just biased.
Oh I put more thought into it now and here are the top 10 wingers who are purely better scorers then Selanne

1. Mike Bossy
2. Brett Hull
3. Jari Kurri
4. Jaromir Jagr
5. Luc Robitaille
6. Mike Gartner
7. Dave Andreycuk
8. Dino Ciccarelli
9. Michel Goulet
10. Alexander Mogilny

Here are 7 more wingers who are either equal or less of a goal scorer but brought more to the table especially in the playoffs


1. Brendan Shanahan
2. Mark Recchi
3. Glenn Anderson
4. Cam Neely
5. Joe Mullen
6. Trevor Linden
7. Steve Larmer

Here are 2 wingers who have definately less offensive skill but are better then Selanne when you take into what they brought to the game and their teams

1. Adam Graves
2. Clark Gillies

If you want to count international and non NHL players then you can add Sergei Makarov who's best years were outsied the NHL

Selanne is not better then any on these players in my mind as I have seen all these players play and I would take before Selanne. Naslund and Heatley compared to Selanne depends on the day. I just feel that Markus Naslund made two average players into stars in. Morisson and Bertuzzi. Heatley as of right now it would be a tie but would still pick Heatley over Selanne.

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08-16-2010, 06:53 PM
  #148
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Now that I continued to play with that player season finder I noticed Selanne's "second prime" post lockout is quite impressive as well. This doesn't relate too much to Francis anymore but I hope you'll forgive me, I got a bit carried away with that site.

Ahead of Selanne in goals per game are only Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Gaborik, Heatley and Semin, all of whom are at least ten years his younger. This is quite impressive as goalscorers generally tend to decline after 30.

Last season gpg for Selanne was exactly the same, 0.5, as it has been averaging from 2005. Furthermore, Selanne also had least icetime per game than any of the above "young gun".

Other than that I was curious to see how effective these players are and calculated the time required per goal (average from 2005-2010).

Ovechkin = 32.66 minutes per goal
Gaborik = 33.96 "
Selanne = 34.75
Semin = 36.75
Kovalchuk = 37.42
Heatley = 37.94

If I had these correctly, Selanne ranks quite high, even if he is currently used mostly as a powerplay weapon (which definitely helps him against "regular" first line players).

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points


Last edited by vulture77: 08-16-2010 at 07:16 PM.
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08-16-2010, 07:04 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Pump the brakes, ushvinder. How does Kovalchuk catch him within 5 years when Kovalchuk has barely been outpacing him in the last 5 years with Selanne consistently on the brink of retirement?

Barring a career renaissance, Kovalchuk is likely a sub-point-per-game player when it's all said and done, and he only briefly touched the Dead Puck Era. As I said yesterday, I don't get this fascination with Kovalchuk relative to Selanne.
Kovalchuk is only 27 and his scoring finishes are this:
2nd, 6th, 8th, 10th, and 11th.

I highly doubt he is now going to regress to a 60 point player for the rest of his career. Kovalchuk will end up as good if not better.

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08-16-2010, 07:06 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
8. Dino Ciccarelli
I cannot understand any reason on Earth for you to think that Dino Ciccarelli was a better scorer than Teemu Selanne. I mean, yeah, he went all Fernando Pisani in the playoffs once, but man... there's a gap there.

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