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#11 - Scott Gomez

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Old
08-13-2010, 02:28 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I think you'll be surprised if you look at Koivu's career points/game and goals/game then compare it with Gomez's. Especially if you consider the injuries and teams they've played on. Gomez definitely skates with the puck better, but overall skill, heart, grit you can make a strong argument Koivu is as good if not better. Now if you asked me who's better now, it's Gomez especially since Koivu's best days are behind him now that he's turning 36 but at their primes you have a debate.
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I have to completely disagree here. Koivu has had some bad breaks that have affected his statistical production in NHL regular seasons, but...

Since his draft year, when pitted against the best in the world in international tournaments, Koivu wasn't even "simply" an all-star. He was a top point getter, and twice voted the best forward in WC competitions. Even post-lockout he has been nominated to an Olympic all-star team.

Now sure, that all has little to do with what he was able to put together in the grind of the NHL (not that he fared so poorly, though). But if we're gonna talk about talent and "calibre", I don't see how anyone can point to anything in Gomez's favour at any time that elevates him (individually) above Koivu's best... or even "second best" (meaning post cancer/injuries), perhaps. Rookie of the year? ECHL MVP during the lockout? One year of PPG offensive production in the NHL? Not NEARLY enough, imo.

Add in a trophy for sportsmanship (Masterton) and another for leadership (Clancy) plus a decade of being the indisputed leader of his teams (both internationally and in the NHL) to cover the "intangible" side, and the gap widens just a bit further, imo, even under hazy definitions of "what they brought to the ice".
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
I don't know this is some kind of sarcasm but if you're not, are you tired of being so wrong?

Man, Gomez is getting highly overrated on this board. Just because he can carry the puck well from end to end, he seems like one the best player in the entire league. He was nothing when Gionta was injured. He didn't even get 60 pts for christ sake.

For you, there's unknown reason why Gomez can't get a ppg season but for Koivu, you don't care about his injuries and disease.

Both player have almost similar ppg rate on their entire career. But of course, we should not take into consideration how sick Koivu was, how many severe injury he had, how good Gomez's winger was compared to Saku's. Gomez is the one that can skate from end to end.. a la Afinogenov you know... He so ****ing great. He lead us to ECF! Something Saku never did! OMFG!


Oh yeah, and please don't talk about his salary!! It's forbidden here. And don't talk about his poor stats either because he brings more than just stats. Do not talk about how he can't score a freaking goal, he ain't a goal scorer. Don't ask why he doesn't have more assists than that since he such a great playmaker, we don't know. Just watch him skate from end to end and it will make you forget his salary, his lack of production etc...


Silly me. Who was I kidding anyway? I shouldn't have expected anything less from people on this board. hehe...

Gomez skates faster, controls the puck better, and is a better defensive player than Koivu. I mean, this guy is a beast defensively and on the PK. He's also a bit bigger than Koivu, he's a better playmaker, and doesn't have to sacrifice his offense to be great defensively, unlike Koivu did.

I'm having reserves on my things, but having Gomez over Koivu is definitely not one of them.

Ask me to take one of these two, I take Gomez today, tomorrow, yesterday and every single day of the week. He's a better hockey player.

Is he overpaid? Yes.
Is he piling up points like a superstar would? No.
Is he still a better player than Koivu? Yes. And in any single facet of the game.

I still am confident we might not have seen the better out of Gomez just yet. I'm confident he'll put up one or two 75 points season in the remaining of his stay with Montreal.

As for those who think I'm biased, no, I'm not. And you should know how I have my reserves on Price, Andrei Kostitsyn, Gauthier and some other players. I'm not the kind of guy who'll just overhype and overrate anything related to the Habs.

But no matter what jersey they wear, I consider Gomez being a better player than Koivu, in pretty much any single aspect of the game, including durability, which was Koivu's biggest shortcoming.

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08-13-2010, 02:29 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Fair enough. You're entitled to a personal opinion, and you can stick to it as stubbornly as you want. In terms of objective analysis, however, the absolute best Gomez can hope for is a "tie", and I think the vast majority who are able to leave opinion and bias completely out of the equation actually score decidedly in Koivu's favour. At least, that's how it seems so far over on the HoH board (which, no offense to you guys, is MUCH more astute at player analysis/comparison on the whole).



Even now, that's at least 7 kinds of wrong. We get it, though, you have a strong opinion. Instead of repeating yourself a million times with expressive punctuation, challenge yourself by actually establishing a stronger case as to how Gomez has proven his calibre to be above that of Koivu.


If by objective analysis you mean YOUR PERSONAL OPINION....then ok.

You can't say that the vast majority of people think Koivu is better because that's not true. I know lots of people that prefer Gomez over Koivu.

I don't see how I am biased either....I am a Habs fan first and foremost....there is no bias involved because both players played for my favorite team. Gomez is a winner....he's proven that throughout his career and I happen to like what he brings to the Habs organization more than what Koivu brought to the team....yes its partially personal opinion...but its also knowing the game of hockey and how its played....and Gomez plays the game better than Koivu.

I'm not going to go any further than that. I see no sense in arguing about a former Hab who has nothing to do with the team anymore. Koivu is gone....and we have Gomez for his replacement....deal with it.....but in 1 season, Gomez has already done more in a Habs jersey than Koivu has done by playing in the Eastern Conference finals.

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08-13-2010, 02:30 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
At this time, no doubt Gomez is a better player than Koivu. One of the reason is that he is younger and healthier.

But please stop overrating Gomez and espescially underrating Koivu. Let me ask you a couple of question.

In their career,

which one played in a better team?
which one played with better wingers/linemates?
which one had cancer?
which one had major injuries?
which one had to deal with the pressure of being the captain of the biggest hockey team in history?

And after all that, Gomez has a PPG ratio of 0.815 and Koivu is at 0.803. Not a big difference.

Edit: and just for the sake of it, here's the playoffs PPG ratio: Gomez: 0.714 - Koivu: 0.889. So yeah, Koivu can elevates his game in important game too.
Gomez is 30, Koivu is a 35 years old playing in the body of a 45 years old. Gomez, right now, is the best option for us, whether people want to admit it or not. And I don't care about the past. Gomez is just the best player right now.

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08-13-2010, 02:33 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post


Silly me. Who was I kidding anyway? I shouldn't have expected anything less from people on this board. hehe...

Gomez skates faster, controls the puck better, and is a better defensive player than Koivu. I mean, this guy is a beast defensively and on the PK. He's also a bit bigger than Koivu, he's a better playmaker, and doesn't have to sacrifice his offense to be great defensively, unlike Koivu did.

I'm having reserves on my things, but having Gomez over Koivu is definitely not one of them.

Ask me to take one of these two, I take Gomez today, tomorrow, yesterday and every single day of the week. He's a better hockey player.

Is he overpaid? Yes.
Is he piling up points like a superstar would? No.
Is he still a better player than Koivu? Yes. And in any single facet of the game.

I still am confident we might not have seen the better out of Gomez just yet. I'm confident he'll put up one or two 75 points season in the remaining of his stay with Montreal.

As for those who think I'm biased, no, I'm not. And you should know how I have my reserves on Price, Andrei Kostitsyn, Gauthier and some other players. I'm not the kind of guy who'll just overhype and overrate anything related to the Habs.

But no matter what jersey they wear, I consider Gomez being a better player than Koivu, in pretty much any single aspect of the game, including durability, which was Koivu's biggest shortcoming.


BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Old
08-13-2010, 02:40 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post
Gomez is 30, Koivu is a 35 years old playing in the body of a 45 years old. Gomez, right now, is the best option for us, whether people want to admit it or not. And I don't care about the past. Gomez is just the best player right now.
Yeah, maybe you should learn to read next time. Read my first sentence.

Let me say it again: "At this time, no doubt Gomez is a better player than Koivu. One of the reason is that he is younger and healthier."

One more thing though. I rather have Koivu at 2.5$ + a 4.8M$ winger than Gomez. Want it or not, if you say you want a player over another one, you have to consider their salary.

Its like saying Cambell is a better defenseman than Gorges. Of course he is, but who would you rather have in your team. A guy that eats 7M$ of your salarial cap that underachieves and plays as a third D or a defenseman that cost 1M$ doing a great job + another 6M$ player?


Last edited by Stradale: 08-13-2010 at 02:48 PM.
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Old
08-13-2010, 02:43 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by HalakRulz View Post
How many times has Koivu cracked the 80 point mark???

Gomez isn't a goal scorer....he's a playmaker...he make the plays and passes the puck to the goal scorers....so him not scoring 20 goals a season means nothing to me when he has 40+ assists.
"he can carry the puck from one end to the other and penatrate the offensive zone like no other player in the league."

If that quote was true he would score more than 20 goals even though he was a playmaker.

He is a really, really good player, but not an amazing player as you make it out to be. It's good to be optimistic about the players of your team, but to overhype them to be a unique kind of player in the league when they're not doesn't do the player any good.

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08-13-2010, 02:50 PM
  #82
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Basically, the two of you (Cam A Larry and HalakRulz) have done nothing except argue the present/future. I think you both obviously detect that a "prime vs prime" comparison obviously clearly favours Koivu, and are trying to avoid it. No one here is claiming that Koivu IS the better player, nor that he would be a better option for the lineup going forward (although if you get into a discussion of "value", it might get closer than you expect). Nor is anyone likely attempting to re-open discussion of whether or not Koivu should have been let go and Gomez brought in when they were. Man, I feel like I've typed that exact sentence a few times before. Come on, we're talking about a guy just entering his 30s and a guy just entering his late 30s.

We (and yes, probably the majority of those who have an opinion on the matter) are saying that at no time has Gomez ever proven himself to be at or above the talent and calibre of Koivu in his best days. Heck, I'll even share the opinion that I think Koivu as recently as 2006/07 was still a decidedly better player than Gomez either was, is, or will be. We can discuss that bit of minutia, but at least be clear on the real point that should be taken away by all:

Gomez, at no time in the future, will ever be looked back on as a more talented, nor higher calibre, player than Koivu. It doesn't have to get any deeper or more involved than that. Or, in easier to read terms:

Koivu's "best" ever >(>?) Gomez's "best" ever (my personal projection of the future included, obviously). And it's really not even that close.

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08-13-2010, 02:54 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
At this time, no doubt Gomez is a better player than Koivu. One of the reason is that he is younger and healthier.

But please stop overrating Gomez and espescially underrating Koivu. Let me ask you a couple of question.

In their career,

which one played in a better team?
which one played with better wingers/linemates?
which one had cancer?
which one had major injuries?
which one had to deal with the pressure of being the captain of the biggest hockey team in history?

And after all that, Gomez has a PPG ratio of 0.815 and Koivu is at 0.803. Not a big difference.

Edit: and just for the sake of it, here's the playoffs PPG ratio: Gomez: 0.714 - Koivu: 0.889. So yeah, Koivu can elevates his game in important game too.


I think what you're driving at here and people are missing your point is that you can't put Gomez over Koivu as a better hockey player overall?

If that's what you're driving at I agree.

I think they're too close to call.

Gomez is more complete while I'd say Koivu was more dynamic. Injuries definitely impacted Koivu more but they happened.

I've watched most of both of their careers. I think they're both awesome. Skilled, skilled hockey players.Two guys with great vision, soft hands and a lot of class. Truckloads of bull headed determination.

Anyone selling Koivu out on not being clutch is crazy. I can't even count how many times Koivu cashed in an OT or shootout goal....or set up one of his cavalcade of so so linemates for an easy cash at a key time.

Too close to call.

Gimmee both?

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Old
08-13-2010, 03:08 PM
  #84
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soccer is my least favorite because of its sissiness!!
you're talking out of your ass. shows you never played the game.

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Old
08-13-2010, 03:31 PM
  #85
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Well, the number change will help sell, what, two, three new Gomez jersey's?...lol

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08-13-2010, 04:12 PM
  #86
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I respect Saku Koivu a lot , and even on a dynasty team I would gladly take it on my team , but the only reason he was so important to the habs was because we had nobody else.If we had elite teams during his era , he would be equally respected but not as important in the history of this team.

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08-13-2010, 04:17 PM
  #87
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Just sayin'

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08-13-2010, 04:25 PM
  #88
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Just sayin'
Two of my favourite players going at it, I love the conversation in the penalty box at the end.

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08-13-2010, 04:53 PM
  #89
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Two of my favourite players going at it, I love the conversation in the penalty box at the end.
I wonder what Lapierre said to make Saku tell him to stop.

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08-13-2010, 05:11 PM
  #90
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I wonder what Lapierre said to make Saku tell him to stop.
My thoughts exactly.

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Old
08-13-2010, 05:33 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post


Silly me. Who was I kidding anyway? I shouldn't have expected anything less from people on this board. hehe...

Gomez skates faster, controls the puck better, and is a better defensive player than Koivu. I mean, this guy is a beast defensively and on the PK. He's also a bit bigger than Koivu, he's a better playmaker, and doesn't have to sacrifice his offense to be great defensively, unlike Koivu did.

I'm having reserves on my things, but having Gomez over Koivu is definitely not one of them.

Ask me to take one of these two, I take Gomez today, tomorrow, yesterday and every single day of the week. He's a better hockey player.

Is he overpaid? Yes.
Is he piling up points like a superstar would? No.
Is he still a better player than Koivu? Yes. And in any single facet of the game.

I still am confident we might not have seen the better out of Gomez just yet. I'm confident he'll put up one or two 75 points season in the remaining of his stay with Montreal.

As for those who think I'm biased, no, I'm not. And you should know how I have my reserves on Price, Andrei Kostitsyn, Gauthier and some other players. I'm not the kind of guy who'll just overhype and overrate anything related to the Habs.

But no matter what jersey they wear, I consider Gomez being a better player than Koivu, in pretty much any single aspect of the game, including durability, which was Koivu's biggest shortcoming.
Gomez and Koivu are the same height. Gomez weighs a little more.

Watching Gomez and watching Koivu, their defensive awareness seem to be the same.

Koivu has more of a firery passion than Gomez, but that's not saying Gomez doesn't have one.

Koivu 8 points shy in 7 games. Koivu had 6 game winning goals to Gomez's 1. Better
+/- too, but that's not really considered an important stat.

Koivu - 59 hits in 71 games.
Gomez - 30 hits in 78 games.

Gomez likes to take the puck and skate it into an area where nothing can happen. Koivu uses his ability to set players up. They're both great playmarkers

So, Gomez is still superior to Koivu ? Let me guess, your rebuttal will be "How did Koivu do in the playoffs "?

Koivu's shortcomings were due to the fact that he had to do everything for the team. He had to be the leader, the scorer, the defensive expert, the offensively skilled guy, passer, energy player, enforcer, captain, coach, ****in' water boy, everything.

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08-13-2010, 06:02 PM
  #92
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I love how things morph around here
Inevitably it always turns into Player x vs player y
Price v Halak
Gomez v Koivu
etc etc
This thread started about a number
So if it's about a number, Gomez did nothing wrong by taking it, as it was available. It's not like he asked for #4
To apply some of the logic in this thread, what was saku thinking when he took the 11 after "captain" Kirk won a cup with it?

Get over it, as I've already stated its a number worn by many notables in this organization

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08-13-2010, 06:21 PM
  #93
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I remember when I was young and got upset over things like numbers on jerseys. I actually remember thinking it was weird seeing Muller wear no. 11 after seeing Walter wear it throughout my childhood.

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08-13-2010, 06:26 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Caballero View Post
I remember when I was young and got upset over things like numbers on jerseys. I actually remember thinking it was weird seeing Muller wear no. 11 after seeing Walter wear it throughout my childhood.
Too young for Lambert?

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08-13-2010, 07:07 PM
  #95
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Too young for Lambert?
Before my time, pops.

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08-13-2010, 07:16 PM
  #96
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Before my time, pops.
ROFL

not by much sonny

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08-13-2010, 07:21 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
I love how things morph around here
Inevitably it always turns into Player x vs player y

Price v Halak
Gomez v Koivu
etc etc
This thread started about a number
So if it's about a number, Gomez did nothing wrong by taking it, as it was available. It's not like he asked for #4
To apply some of the logic in this thread, what was saku thinking when he took the 11 after "captain" Kirk won a cup with it?

Get over it, as I've already stated its a number worn by many notables in this organization
Well, I think you can trace it back to posts #45 and 46 which contained the opinions:
"BTW, Gomez is has good as Koivu. In fact, a little more talented"
and
"The last person who wore #11 that was any good as far as I'm concerned was Kirk Muller."

How was that NOT going to start things going? Almost everyone up to that point was basically repeating "it's just a number, what's the big deal?" Once the can of worms gets cracked open... BOOM. Every time.

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08-13-2010, 09:58 PM
  #98
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Yes, clearly Gomez sucks so bad. He'll probably get sent down to the minors and pass waivers cuz no one wants him. What has he done in his career to earn the right to wear one of the numbers NOT retired by the Habs a year AFTER the last person to wear it left. I love Koivu to death, but the first post....

last season: Won't it be weird to see all these new players on the Habs and lose our real identity (Komi, Saku, Kovy, etc.)?

couple of games into the season: Nope...love this team.

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08-13-2010, 10:46 PM
  #99
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Hum, no he's right. Gomez is arguably the most talented player on this team. His talent is something special. For some reasons, he can't get nearby 84 points like he did a couple of years ago, but he brings more to the table than Koivu, on the ice that is.

I don't care how good Koivu would have been without injuries/disease, he got where he got, and that's an inferior player to Gomez.
For some reason he can't score more than 16 goals either, but life goes on. Koivu was easily the more talented player in their primes imo and those who stated Gomez is better defensively haven't been paying attention. So far on the HoH boards, Gomez hasn't got a single vote.


Last edited by habsjunkie2*: 08-13-2010 at 10:59 PM.
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08-14-2010, 07:58 AM
  #100
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11 is not retired, i dont see a problem here. Koivu was a good little player on a very average team.That it, nothing more, nothing less.
exactly. some ppl are making it drama for no reason. Koivu was loved here in Montreal but in the end he was a good player who did good things for the city and for an avg team.

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