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Old
08-13-2010, 08:46 PM
  #26
MadmanSJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPavs8Cluthcy View Post
Well, my reasoning behind that is that Thornton is 30 and regressing, meanwhile Vlasic and Setoguchi are both 23 and getting better. And Thornton has proven, time and time again, that he can't lead a team in the playoffs.

Also, why does everybody say that Thornton can lead a team to a playoff spot by himself? He scored 89 PTS this year, good for 8th in the NHL. Not bad by any means, I'm not complaining, but I don't consider him a top-10 player.
Well it's a good thing your opinion changes every day as you learn more about hockey

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08-13-2010, 08:51 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by MadmanSJ View Post
Well it's a good thing your opinion changes every day as you learn more about hockey
?How has my opinion changed?

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08-13-2010, 08:54 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by JPavs8Cluthcy View Post
?How has my opinion changed?
If your opinions HAVEN'T changed as you learn more about hockey, then you are in a big problem.

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08-13-2010, 09:06 PM
  #29
WTFetus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPavs8Cluthcy View Post
Well, my reasoning behind that is that Thornton is 30 and regressing, meanwhile Vlasic and Setoguchi are both 23 and getting better. And Thornton has proven, time and time again, that he can't lead a team in the playoffs.

Also, why does everybody say that Thornton can lead a team to a playoff spot by himself? He scored 89 PTS this year, good for 8th in the NHL. Not bad by any means, I'm not complaining, but I don't consider him a top-10 player.
1. You say he is regressing. You are basing this off of...what exactly? I feel he had one of his years as a Shark last season when talking about his all-around play.
2. You say Thornton can't lead a team in the playoffs. Well, that's not his play style, he makes the players around him better. Not to mention he draws away attention from other forwards due to his presence on the ice. You also seriously think that Vlasic or Setoguchi can lead a team farther than Thornton can? Hell, even Pronger didn't do it by himself. Timonen and Coburn were a huge part of their success, not to mention the team's insane depth.
3. You don't consider him a Top-10 player. Name 10 other players who have shown the consistency he has shown throughout his career.

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08-13-2010, 10:35 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
1. You say he is regressing. You are basing this off of...what exactly? I feel he had one of his years as a Shark last season when talking about his all-around play.
2. You say Thornton can't lead a team in the playoffs. Well, that's not his play style, he makes the players around him better. Not to mention he draws away attention from other forwards due to his presence on the ice. You also seriously think that Vlasic or Setoguchi can lead a team farther than Thornton can? Hell, even Pronger didn't do it by himself. Timonen and Coburn were a huge part of their success, not to mention the team's insane depth.
3. You don't consider him a Top-10 player. Name 10 other players who have shown the consistency he has shown throughout his career.
Just to get an idea of where you're coming from, Pavs could you answer question 3?

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08-13-2010, 11:04 PM
  #31
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Gladly,

At the moment my top-10 is like this:

Crosby
Ovechkin
Malkin
Stamkos
Keith
Backstrom
Doughty
Green
Pronger
Marleau

Are my top-10. I don't think he's a top-10 forward either, although that is much closer.

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Old
08-13-2010, 11:11 PM
  #32
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Marleau is top-10 player in the league. Mind=blown.

Can I see your top-10 forwards?

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08-13-2010, 11:21 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
Marleau is top-10 player in the league. Mind=blown.

Can I see your top-10 forwards?
I'll admit, I'm a homer, but you think Thornton>Marleau? OK, say I put Lidstrom as No.10, is that better?

Ask and you shall recieve

Ovechkin
Crosby
Stamkos
Backstrom
Marleau
St. Louis
B. Richards
Sedin
Sedin
Alfredsson

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Old
08-13-2010, 11:29 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPavs8Cluthcy View Post
you think Thornton>Marleau?
They are not even on the same level.

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Old
08-14-2010, 01:00 AM
  #35
MadmanSJ
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When did malkin start playing defense?

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08-14-2010, 01:01 AM
  #36
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There is no way Alfie's better than Thornton - get off the crack dude..same with Brad Richards

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08-14-2010, 01:12 AM
  #37
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Stamkos, after just one season, has to be the most overrated player on these boards. You've also been saying that Heatley without Thornton wouldn't put up nearly as good numbers as he is putting up now. How do you think Stamkos would do without St. Louis?
The Sedins haven't put up consistent enough numbers to be considered that high. And I do not think Alfredsson is better than Thornton either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPavs8Cluthcy View Post
I'll admit, I'm a homer, but you think Thornton>Marleau?
A little hint, Thornton is on the same team.

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Old
08-14-2010, 03:58 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPavs8Cluthcy View Post
I'll admit, I'm a homer, but you think Thornton>Marleau? OK, say I put Lidstrom as No.10, is that better?

Ask and you shall recieve

Ovechkin
Crosby
Stamkos
Backstrom
Marleau
St. Louis
B. Richards
Sedin
Sedin
Alfredsson
You say Thornton is regressing, but you have a nearly 38 year old Alfredsson on your top-10.

Also I fail to see any evidence to show that Thornton is regressing. I guess someone is just spending too much time on the main boards.

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Old
08-14-2010, 04:08 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPavs8Cluthcy View Post
Well, my reasoning behind that is that Thornton is 30 and regressing, meanwhile Vlasic and Setoguchi are both 23 and getting better. And Thornton has proven, time and time again, that he can't lead a team in the playoffs.

Also, why does everybody say that Thornton can lead a team to a playoff spot by himself? He scored 89 PTS this year, good for 8th in the NHL. Not bad by any means, I'm not complaining, but I don't consider him a top-10 player.
Maybe because when he was traded here the Sharks have been in the playoffs every year since? Just a thought.

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Old
08-14-2010, 04:10 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPavs8Cluthcy View Post
I'll admit, I'm a homer, but you think Thornton>Marleau? OK, say I put Lidstrom as No.10, is that better?

Ask and you shall recieve

Ovechkin
Crosby
Stamkos
Backstrom
Marleau
St. Louis
B. Richards
Sedin
Sedin
Alfredsson

You need to take a break from HF.

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Old
08-14-2010, 05:00 PM
  #41
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People still think Thornton is a better hockey player? Marleau is the better all-around player. Thornton's peak will always be much higher than Marleau but the last two seasons, Marleau has been better.

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08-14-2010, 05:04 PM
  #42
Kitten Mittons
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Marleau is a better all-around player than Ovechkin too, doesn't mean he is a better hockey player.

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08-14-2010, 05:08 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
Marleau is a better all-around player than Ovechkin too, doesn't mean he is a better hockey player.
Except...Marleau isn't a better all-around player than Ovechkin. Being able to see the ice well and pass well is not being a better hockey player than Marleau with what he brings. It's time people get over the MVP season and the one that followed it and realize that Thornton has come back down to earth and he's not the better hockey player anymore.

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Old
08-14-2010, 05:11 PM
  #44
CommanderShepard15
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The actual list

Crosby
Ovechkin
Malkin
Stamkos
Getzlaf as much as i hate to admit it
Thornton
Datsyuk
Toews
Kane
Zetterburg

The Sedins + Alfredson probably arent even top 20

as it would continue

Nash
Marleau
Kolvachuk
M. Richards
B. Richards
Parise
Heatley
Gaborik
Carter
Hossa

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Old
08-14-2010, 05:13 PM
  #45
Kitten Mittons
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Except...Marleau isn't a better all-around player than Ovechkin.
Well then... let's take Kovalchuk (and we all had this debate already). Marleau is the better all-around player but there's a reason Kovalchuk's caphit will be way higher, assuming there's no cap circumvention again - he's one step above Marleau, like Thornton.

Although you were making an argument for only last two years, while I am pretty sure we're talking overall.

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Old
08-14-2010, 05:22 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
Well then... let's take Kovalchuk (and we all had this debate already). Marleau is the better all-around player but there's a reason Kovalchuk's caphit will be way higher, assuming there's no cap circumvention again - he's one step above Marleau, like Thornton.

Although you were making an argument for only last two years, while I am pretty sure we're talking overall.
Kovalchuk's cap hit will be way higher because he made it to UFA. There is a premium on those players that make it and a discount given by the players that decide to stay. It's not because he's a better player and it's a laughable notion that you believe that cap hit now determine who is the best players in this league. Heatley's better than Marleau. Campbell is better than Boyle. Huet is better than Niemi.

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Old
08-14-2010, 05:25 PM
  #47
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No, those are overpayments and signings made at different times. Marleau would get 7.5 on the open market (as you believe), Kovalchuk would've gotten 8+, if we're talking a short deal like with Marleau, not a cap circumvention type of deal.

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08-14-2010, 05:29 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
No, those are overpayments and signings made at different times. Marleau would get 7.5 on the open market (as you believe), Kovalchuk would've gotten 8+, if we're talking a short deal like with Marleau, not a cap circumvention type of deal.
You throw out the cap circumventing part of the contract, Ilya would've landed an 8.2 mil cap hit with the Devils. Do you think they'd actually keep him at that kind of cap hit? That's kind of the reason why they threw it in. He's not worth sucking up 8.2 mil on their cap space. Do you think that if someone did, it wouldn't be an overpayment? The likelihood is that Kovalchuk will likely land around 7.5 mil on the open market w/o any shenanigans.

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08-14-2010, 05:36 PM
  #49
Kitten Mittons
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You throw out the cap circumventing part of the contract, Ilya would've landed an 8.2 mil cap hit with the Devils. Do you think they'd actually keep him at that kind of cap hit? That's kind of the reason why they threw it in. He's not worth sucking up 8.2 mil on their cap space. Do you think that if someone did, it wouldn't be an overpayment? The likelihood is that Kovalchuk will likely land around 7.5 mil on the open market w/o any shenanigans.
I think Marleau at 7.5 is an overpayment too.
Kovalchuk was offered to sign with the Thrashers at a near 10mil caphit. The fact that he is even offered that much says something (and yes, it also says something about the management).

Besides, I think we need to look at salaries, rather than cap hits. Kovalchuk would've been making 11.5 million, while Marleau 6.9 and Hossa, for instance, 7.9.

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Old
08-14-2010, 06:02 PM
  #50
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I think it's kind of pointless to argue over who is "better" than the other. They contribute in different ways, and any argument is going to boil down to the subjective views of each side. Citing cap hits isn't a very good argument, but neither is comparing points.

Besides, wasn't this discussion about whether or not Thornton is a top-10 forward, not about his comparison with Marleau?

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