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So after 09-10, are Crosby and Ovie in the HoH top 100 yet?

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Old
08-13-2010, 09:02 PM
  #26
seventieslord
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I am going to say yes to both. Not an ovechkin fan, but he has two harts and five first team all-star seasons. Dickie moore's career resume was built off of 5 seasons (inj which he was never even top-5 in hart voting) and ovechkin's 5 years trump those so heavily that moore's playoffs and mediocre pre- and post-prime seasons can't outweigh it.

Crosby is even higher at the moment. If only slightly. He has the hart, has led the league in goals and poiints, and almost assists. A cup and a final. Twice top-2 in playoff scoring. Three playoffs with more points than ovechkin has ever had. A higher ppg average in the playoffs than the regular season, as if that seems possible.

Yes, I'd have them both in a revised top-100 - crosby about 85th, ovechkin about 90th.

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08-15-2010, 01:34 AM
  #27
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They're either there, or just outside of it.

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08-15-2010, 01:43 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Ovechkin is definately ahead of Crosby at this point.

I think Ovechkin would be somewhere between 100 and 120. Crosby would be between 150 and 200.
Are you kidding me?

Crosby has the Cup and playoff success and is younger.

It's hard to say where a current player in his prime and has done so much and is only 22 and where he should sit but he is on a career path to be a top 10 player barring serious injury IMO.

He will end up being a top 100 guy and probably would be one if for some reason he died in an accident or something but let's all watch his great career unfold.

Ovechkin is a great young player but will always remain behind Crosby IMO.

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08-15-2010, 01:47 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by matnor View Post
I have no problem ranking Crosby over Ovechkin but he was mediocre (by his standards) in the Olympics so I don't really see that as an argument in his favor. He scored one huge goal but I'm not comfortable evaluating a player based on one single play. Additionally, Ovechkin has the game winner against Canada in the 06 Olympics.
Actually, if Crosby's wingers had any finish his mediocre Olympics would be viewed differently.

But like you say we should not evaluate one one game or tourney, his playoff success is the difference IMO.

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08-15-2010, 02:27 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Are you kidding me?

Crosby has the Cup and playoff success and is younger.
The Cup is definitely a point in favor of Crosby. Playoff success? Swap chokers Greene and Semin with Gonchar and Malkin and maybe Ovechkin has more "playoff success." Hell, at least the Penguins have a goalie who is NHL-calibre year to year. Ovechkin has been great in the playoffs for the most part, though his record in elimination games isn't the best.

The "Crosby is younger" argument is obviously worthless in judging what they have already done.

Quote:
It's hard to say where a current player in his prime and has done so much and is only 22 and where he should sit but he is on a career path to be a top 10 player barring serious injury IMO.
Both Crosby and Ovechkin are on career paths to be top 10 IMO. Hopefully, they both make it.

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Ovechkin is a great young player but will always remain behind Crosby IMO.
We'll see. Ovechkin is the better individual talent, by a small but clear margin IMO. We'll see how that translates into what he actually accomplishes, however.

Right now, I have the two of them practically even.

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08-15-2010, 02:29 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Actually, if Crosby's wingers had any finish his mediocre Olympics would be viewed differently.

But like you say we should not evaluate one one game or tourney, his playoff success is the difference IMO.
I thought one of Crosby's wingers (Iginla) did 90% of the work on Crosby's OT goal. I honestly don't give Crosby too much credit for the 2010 Olympics, when he invisible for pretty much the entire tournament, until Iginla fed him a pass that left him basically alone in front.

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08-15-2010, 02:33 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I thought one of Crosby's wingers (Iginla) did 90% of the work on Crosby's OT goal. I honestly don't give Crosby too much credit for the 2010 Olympics, when he invisible for pretty much the entire tournament, until Iginla fed him a pass that left him basically alone in front.
Amazing, though. Try to quiz someone years from now on Crosby's stats in that tournament, they'll hesitate. But they'll say, "He scored the winner!"

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08-15-2010, 02:38 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The Cup is definitely a point in favor of Crosby. Playoff success? Swap chokers Greene and Semin with Gonchar and Malkin and maybe Ovechkin has more "playoff success." Hell, at least the Penguins have a goalie who is NHL-calibre year to year. Ovechkin has been great in the playoffs for the most part, though his record in elimination games isn't the best.

The "Crosby is younger" argument is obviously worthless in judging what they have already done.



Both Crosby and Ovechkin are on career paths to be top 10 IMO. Hopefully, they both make it.



We'll see. Ovechkin is the better individual talent, by a small but clear margin IMO. We'll see how that translates into what he actually accomplishes, however.

Right now, I have the two of them practically even.
The fact that Crosby is two years younger gives him a better chance, all other things considered equal, to come out on top since most guys have Crosby ahead or even even at this point. To put it another way lets compare Crosby after his age 24 season to where AO is now after his age 24 season and it won't be as close as it is now.

Sure Crosby has had the better supporting cast and that is part of the reason for the playoff success, as teams win Cups, but Crosby has been the better overall playoff performer and player IMO.

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08-15-2010, 03:40 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The fact that Crosby is two years younger gives him a better chance, all other things considered equal, to come out on top since most guys have Crosby ahead or even even at this point. To put it another way lets compare Crosby after his age 24 season to where AO is now after his age 24 season and it won't be as close as it is now.

Sure Crosby has had the better supporting cast and that is part of the reason for the playoff success, as teams win Cups, but Crosby has been the better overall playoff performer and player IMO.
Crosby has enjoyed more success, but I wouldn't say he's been the better performer.
Ovechkin has a higher playoff points/game than Crosby; and (if I'm not mistaken) also has the highest playoff goals/game in modern NHL history.

The major difference: when Crosby had a mediocre series or game, he routinely had the luxury of others picking up the slack for him. Ovechkin never once had that luxury and hence all failure fell on his shoulders.

Don't forget, the biggest game of Crosby's career (SCF game 7) was basically won without him even in the lineup.

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08-15-2010, 12:17 PM
  #35
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In my list, both are just outside the top 100 but in a few years will likely be inside it. I can't put them in the top 100 simply because their accomplishments outnumber certain legends already. I need more of a body of work than 5 seasons to do it with but both are between 125-150 on my top 200 of all-time, but climbing by the year. But in what order? Well it's tough to weigh because OV has the individual merits with his multiple Hart, Pearson awards and his scoring title from the left wing. Not to mention five all-star nods at LW. But that position is traditionally easier to get on a year-end all-star team with. Then again, centres pick up more points and in terms of PPG the two are in a dead heat.

But Crosby has moulded more of a complete game and whether or not you can say he's lucky or OV is not to blame for lack of team success, Crosby has the team achievements so far. 1 cup ring (as captain at age 21, which has got to make it even more significant), an Olympic gold (on a goal he scored- Yes, I know Sid had no better a tourney than Ovechkin production-wise but stepped up when it mattered. I have no doubt Ovechkin could've done the same in his situation but he wasn't there so we won't know for sure) and a finals appearance. Sidney is a shade higher. If OV has another banner year with awards then gets his team to the cup, he will leap several spots ahead of Crosby and vice versa.

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08-15-2010, 01:21 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Crosby is even higher at the moment. If only slightly.
Ovechkin was ahead of Crosby the last three regular seasons according to writers, players and stats (tie this year).

09/10 playoffs
Crosby 1 G 4 A in 7 games vs Montreal
Ovechkin manages to net in 5 G 5 A against the same team still he's labeled a chocker by some

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Old
08-15-2010, 04:50 PM
  #37
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I didn't intend for this topic to be a debate between the 2 players, but this is the way I see it:

Year 1: Ovechkin getting 106 points, as well as 50+ goals as a rookie, is phenomenal. A once in a lifetime season. But even though he outscored Crosby by 4 points, I would give Crosby the edge in this season. Think about their situations. Crosby was 18. 18. Getting 100 points as an 18 year old in the 21st century is a slightly better accomplishment then a 20 year old doing it. Think about what you were like as an 18 year old, especially your body structure. Then imagine yourself scoring 100 points, something the majority of NHLers never do in their entire careers.

Year 2: Crosby by a mile, goes without saying. He somehow one-upped his previous accomplishment by doing something that had never been done in the history of the 4 major North American sports. Again, imagine yourself as a teenager, specifically your body structure. Could you be the best hockey player on the planet? That's freakishly incredible.

Year 3: Obviously this is where Ovie starts making up ground, but one HAS to look at Crosby's playoff. He was phenomenal. He went up against a powerhouse Detroit team in the finals, and still came out with an unreal PPG average. Advantage: Ovie, because 65 goals is tremendous.

Year 4: Another great season by Ovie, but another great playoff from Crosby. 31 points is impressive, but what's even more impressive is how he had 28 points in the first 3 rounds. You can give Ovie the advantage for this season, but not by much.

Year 5: Tied. I can't give a player credit for getting injured. I just can't. Especially since the injuries AND the suspensions were completely his fault. This season wasn't a heroic Mario Lemieux tale of someone missing time because of cancer. He missed games because he's a careless borderline-dirty player.


And for whatever it's worth, Crosby plays a much more complete game, and most importantly:

If Crosby had linemates comparable to the beast that Ovechkin plays with, this would not be a debate.

In my honest opinion, all things considered, it's closer than what a lot of people think. Some people unfortunately just count Hart trophies, when in reality, these 2 players are incredible even.

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08-15-2010, 04:58 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
If Crosby had linemates comparable to the beast that Ovechkin plays with, this would not be a debate.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/WSH/2006.html

Sick teammates indeed.
6 points less then in his best season.

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08-15-2010, 05:11 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/WSH/2006.html

Sick teammates indeed.
6 points less then in his best season.

...linemates comparable to the beast that Ovechkin plays with...

Present tense. Besides, Crosby's 1st 2 seasons were more impressive, regardless of linemates.

EDIT: Let's compare their linemates for the 2 seasons we're looking at. Lemieux didn't spend that much time with Sid, and was falling apart anyways. He simply didn't have it that season, and retired after 3 months. Palffy was solid, but was going down the tubes to injuries. And he retired halfway through. Crosby carried him to a PPG season, not the other way around. Recchi was solid. He was the best linemate Crosby has ever had for an extended period of time. But still, Crosby carried Recchi, not vice-versa.

If 05-07 Ovechkin had a linemate comparable to Recchi, how much better would he have been? Maybe slightly better, but old man Recchi was not that good. His first 2 seasons still wouldn't match Crosby's first 2 seasons. Let's say Ovechkin plays with a winger equal in talent to a 37 year old Mark Recchi. Let's say he gets bumped up a handful of points in 05-06. He gets a slight improvement on the stat-sheet, but nothing concrete. An 18 year old finishing 6th in league scoring still trumps his season, in an all-time sense. And let's say an 06-07 Ovie doesn't go into his "slump" and comes out with... let's be ridiculously generous... 115 points. He STILL falls behind Crosby, the 19 year old who finished tops in league scoring.

Years 3-5, if Crosby played with a winger comparable to Backstrom, there would be no debate. It wouldn't be close. Let's not forget that Crosby has the higher career PPG, despite having far inferior linemates for the majority of his career. Recchi doesn't compare to Backstrom, even a rookie Backstrom, and Crosby played a lot less time with Recchi than Ovechkin did with Backstrom.

No debate.


If Crosby played with a winger of Backstrom's talent, his offensive statistics would trump Ovechkin's. It's just logical. Linemates do make a difference.


Last edited by SidGenoMario: 08-15-2010 at 05:31 PM.
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08-15-2010, 05:28 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Crosby has enjoyed more success, but I wouldn't say he's been the better performer.
Ovechkin has a higher playoff points/game than Crosby; and (if I'm not mistaken) also has the highest playoff goals/game in modern NHL history.

The major difference: when Crosby had a mediocre series or game, he routinely had the luxury of others picking up the slack for him. Ovechkin never once had that luxury and hence all failure fell on his shoulders.

Don't forget, the biggest game of Crosby's career (SCF game 7) was basically won without him even in the lineup.
2 of the 3 seasons that AO has been in the playoffs it was 1st round only and the further you go inn rounds the harder it gets, at least in theory, to score points.

To me the totality of what Crosby has done in the playoffs makes his performance better and I do account and realize that teams win Cups not just one player but he is the captain and that counts for something..

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08-15-2010, 06:20 PM
  #41
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I think the post lockout era will go down as superior to the deadpuck era. The deadpuck era only produced jagr, sakic, forsberg and fedorov as top 100 players that are forwards. This new era has ovechkin and crosby, both of whom are going to be locks for the top 50. On top of that I think Malkin, Thornton and Kovalchuk will find thier way on to this top 100 list. People can say what they want about kovalchuk, but he will definetly end up with a better career than datsyuk or iginla when all is said and done.

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08-15-2010, 07:02 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I think the post lockout era will go down as superior to the deadpuck era. The deadpuck era only produced jagr, sakic, forsberg and fedorov as top 100 players that are forwards. This new era has ovechkin and crosby, both of whom are going to be locks for the top 50. On top of that I think Malkin, Thornton and Kovalchuk will find thier way on to this top 100 list. People can say what they want about kovalchuk, but he will definetly end up with a better career than datsyuk or iginla when all is said and done.
That's still not a bad group of forwards for the era, though. I think injuries really hurt the era as well, though. Lindros would definitely be on the list if not for injuries, and Forsberg would be higher. Bure and Kariya may have made it without injuries as well, and possibly Selanne if his didn't develop his degenerative problems.

I'm actually interested to see how the rest of Kovalchuk's career plays out. If he keeps churning out very good seasons, it will probably be hard to ignore, especially since he's only going into his age 27 season. However, despite how good and consistent he's been, I'm not sure how often he'd be considered a top 10 player based on each individual season (instead of reputation and consistency), and he only has one 2nd team All Star (granted Ovechkin has 1st team locked up, but LW is usually a weak position after that). I still think he's going to need to have some team and playoff success in order to be seen as a winner to actually make it.

I actually think Datsyuk's first 4 years after the lockout are better than anything Kovalchuk's done, and if he bounces back to a PPG the next couple years (which is a question due to his age), and has a couple more good playoffs, I'm not sure if he'd be much different than Fedorov. Really, those 4 years are pretty on par with Fedorov's 3 year regular season peak from 93-94 to 95-96, as is his playoffs during 08 (though Fedorov has several great playoff runs)

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08-15-2010, 07:04 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
...linemates comparable to the beast that Ovechkin plays with...
I won't even care to read further as Ovechkin proofed in his rookie season that offensive production is hardly affected by teammates.

This is a great post regarding your theory.

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08-15-2010, 07:07 PM
  #44
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Someone in a thread a little while ago said that Crosby is pretty close to Sid Abel in career accomplishments by now. He might have passed Abel by now. So that would indicate that Crosby (and probably Ovechkin) are both fringe Top 100 players by now.

Personally, when we restart the list (are we still doing that?), I'd like to only include players who played before the lockout because I think it's just too hard to rate guys like Crosby and Ovechkin who are still in the upswing of their careers. Then include the two of them in the update in a few years (by which time they should be at least Top 50).
I'd be hard pressed to vote for these guys now. Putting them somewhere around 90-100 when I know they are better than most players on the list seems silly.

Ovechkin's a 5 time first team all-star in his first 5 five seasons. He's won 2 Hart trophies and has been first, second twice and third in scoring. How many guys can compare to that?

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08-15-2010, 08:15 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
I didn't intend for this topic to be a debate between the 2 players, but this is the way I see it:

Year 1: Ovechkin getting 106 points, as well as 50+ goals as a rookie, is phenomenal. A once in a lifetime season. But even though he outscored Crosby by 4 points, I would give Crosby the edge in this season. Think about their situations. Crosby was 18. 18. Getting 100 points as an 18 year old in the 21st century is a slightly better accomplishment then a 20 year old doing it. Think about what you were like as an 18 year old, especially your body structure. Then imagine yourself scoring 100 points, something the majority of NHLers never do in their entire careers.
Sorry, but only a Crosby homer would give him the edge for their first seasons. Ovechkin had more points, far more goals, and was a more complete player at that point. He won the Calder in convincing fashion. Who cares how old they were? You don't win games by how old you are, you win by how well you performed on the ice. Crosby's younger age gives him a chance to tack on 2 more elite seasons to his totals, which may help make him greater in an all-time sense, but it's far from a guarantee.


Quote:
Year 2: Crosby by a mile, goes without saying. He somehow one-upped his previous accomplishment by doing something that had never been done in the history of the 4 major North American sports. Again, imagine yourself as a teenager, specifically your body structure. Could you be the best hockey player on the planet? That's freakishly incredible.
Agree. Crosby was amazing and Ovechkin had the worst season of his career. Big edge to Crosby. I honestly think Crosby's ankle has permanently affected his speed, and he will never be as dangerous offensively as he was in 2006-07.

Quote:
Year 3: Obviously this is where Ovie starts making up ground, but one HAS to look at Crosby's playoff. He was phenomenal. He went up against a powerhouse Detroit team in the finals, and still came out with an unreal PPG average. Advantage: Ovie, because 65 goals is tremendous.
Ovechkin had the best regular season either of them has had. The Penguins were basically carried by Malkin, while Crosby was injured. AO was okay in the playoffs, despite the losing cause, but Crosby was better.

Quote:
Year 4: Another great season by Ovie, but another great playoff from Crosby. 31 points is impressive, but what's even more impressive is how he had 28 points in the first 3 rounds. You can give Ovie the advantage for this season, but not by much.
Another great year by Ovechkin and Crosby was overshadowed by Malkin again on his own team, in both the regular season or the playoffs. Crosby was better in the playoffs than Ovechkin surely, but it sure would have helped AO if he had the help Crosby had.

Quote:

Year 5: Tied. I can't give a player credit for getting injured. I just can't. Especially since the injuries AND the suspensions were completely his fault. This season wasn't a heroic Mario Lemieux tale of someone missing time because of cancer. He missed games because he's a careless borderline-dirty player.
I think it's pretty tied. AO was a bit better when they both played, but his dumb suspensions were his own damn fault.

Quote:
And for whatever it's worth, Crosby plays a much more complete game, and most importantly:
AO played the more complete game when they were rookies, but he didn't progress like Crosby did. Crosby has had a more complete game for years 4 and 5, and arguably before then.

Quote:
If Crosby had linemates comparable to the beast that Ovechkin plays with, this would not be a debate.
Well, Crosby does play with Malkin on the PP. And Backstrom really wasn't anything special until 2008-09. 2009-10 was really the first season where Ovechkin's regular linemates were clearly better. And Crosby did get to play with Hossa for part of that season (and Malkin at times).

Quote:
In my honest opinion, all things considered, it's closer than what a lot of people think. Some people unfortunately just count Hart trophies, when in reality, these 2 players are incredible even.
After disagreeing with almost every point you made, I still agree with your overall conclusions. The two players have very similar career value right now.

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08-15-2010, 11:03 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Ovechkin was ahead of Crosby the last three regular seasons according to writers, players and stats (tie this year).

09/10 playoffs
Crosby 1 G 4 A in 7 games vs Montreal
Ovechkin manages to net in 5 G 5 A against the same team still he's labeled a chocker by some
Ask any GM who they'd choose to win them more hockey games.

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08-15-2010, 11:27 PM
  #47
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im glad to read so many people not rating crosby too highly at this point in his career.....the media will eventually consider him top 10..they probably already do, but in my opinion he had better pick it up...finishing third in scoring year after year (sometimes second on your team) isnt enough to make you an all time great as an offensive centreman.

in my opinion, crosby will go down as the most overrated player of all time....

yeah, he won a cup, but he didnt get MVP.

yeah, he won gold but didnt get tournament all star, had only a couple of points in the last 4 games and except for blindly flinging a puck at the net in the end was invisible during the olympics.

he only has one scoring title in 5 years.

he didnt win rookie of the year.

i dont buy the whole 'complete player' argument with crosby....he never kills a second of any penalty, he is top 3 in scoring but his +/- is 30 points lower than the other players in that tier....he isnt a physical force like ovechkin or even malkin.....what makes him so 'complete'?

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08-15-2010, 11:49 PM
  #48
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Ask any GM who they'd choose to win them more hockey games.
Most GM's would take Crosby, AO is the sexier pick but Crosby is the complete package.

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08-15-2010, 11:49 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Crosby has enjoyed more success, but I wouldn't say he's been the better performer.
Ovechkin has a higher playoff points/game than Crosby;
and (if I'm not mistaken) also has the highest playoff goals/game in modern NHL history.

The major difference: when Crosby had a mediocre series or game, he routinely had the luxury of others picking up the slack for him. Ovechkin never once had that luxury and hence all failure fell on his shoulders.

Don't forget, the biggest game of Crosby's career (SCF game 7) was basically won without him even in the lineup.
When you don't ever play past the 2nd round, it's a little easier to rack up points. Ovie never had to face the likes of Lidstrom/Datsyuk/Zetterberg under Babcock for two whole series.

In the 1st and 2nd rounds since Ovie's been making the playoffs, Crosby's had 54 points in 35 games compared to Ovechkin's 40 in 28. Or 1.54 PPG compared to 1.43.

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08-15-2010, 11:50 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
im glad to read so many people not rating crosby too highly at this point in his career.....the media will eventually consider him top 10..they probably already do, but in my opinion he had better pick it up...finishing third in scoring year after year (sometimes second on your team) isnt enough to make you an all time great as an offensive centreman.

in my opinion, crosby will go down as the most overrated player of all time....

yeah, he won a cup, but he didnt get MVP.

yeah, he won gold but didnt get tournament all star, had only a couple of points in the last 4 games and except for blindly flinging a puck at the net in the end was invisible during the olympics.

he only has one scoring title in 5 years.

he didnt win rookie of the year.
OMG NO ROOKIE OF THE YEAR!!!!?!?!?!!! ZOMG ONLY ONE SCORING TITLE IN 5 YEARS!!!!

Crosby should have won the MVP in 2009. They gave it to a guy who had 5 more points, but piled up some of them in blowouts, sucked on faceoffs, and led the playoffs in minor penalties.

Beliveau made a career out of finishing 3rd in scoring year after year (7 times, actually) and he is a consensus top-10 player.

Quote:
i dont buy the whole 'complete player' argument with crosby....he never kills a second of any penalty, he is top 3 in scoring but his +/- is 30 points lower than the other players in that tier....he isnt a physical force like ovechkin or even malkin.....what makes him so 'complete'?
Do you watch much hockey?

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