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So after 09-10, are Crosby and Ovie in the HoH top 100 yet?

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08-15-2010, 11:50 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
im glad to read so many people not rating crosby too highly at this point in his career.....the media will eventually consider him top 10..they probably already do, but in my opinion he had better pick it up...finishing third in scoring year after year (sometimes second on your team) isnt enough to make you an all time great as an offensive centreman.

in my opinion, crosby will go down as the most overrated player of all time....

yeah, he won a cup, but he didnt get MVP.

yeah, he won gold but didnt get tournament all star, had only a couple of points in the last 4 games and except for blindly flinging a puck at the net in the end was invisible during the olympics.

he only has one scoring title in 5 years.

he didnt win rookie of the year.

i dont buy the whole 'complete player' argument with crosby....he never kills a second of any penalty, he is top 3 in scoring but his +/- is 30 points lower than the other players in that tier....he isnt a physical force like ovechkin or even malkin.....what makes him so 'complete'?
Well, Crosby entered the league as more of a playmaker type who was very weak in the faceoff circle and not as good defensively as a first line center needed to be. However, he was 18 years old.

Crosby has 4 top 10 finishes in assists in 5 years including two second place finishes, so he is clearly an excellent passer.

This year, Crosby decided to shoot more, likely in realization of how bad his wingers are, and led the NHL in goals.

That sort of transformation illustrates how complete Crosby is offensively, a guy that is able to be a playmaker and great assist man when needed but also the ability to transform himself into the leading goal scorer in the NHL when he decided to.

Also of note is his improvement in the faceoff circle, finishing right outside of the top 10 in percentage this season. Further, the claim that he "never kills a second of any penalty" is patently false, just look at the column entitled "PGA" in his hockey reference bio, proof that he has been on the pk in some fashion every year he's played.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...crosbsi01.html

Crosby has also received praise for improving his defensive game, is good in the corners, scores goals, sets up his teammates, and wins faceoffs. I'm not sure what else you would need him to do to make him "complete" in your eyes.

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08-16-2010, 12:08 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
im glad to read so many people not rating crosby too highly at this point in his career.....the media will eventually consider him top 10..they probably already do, but in my opinion he had better pick it up...finishing third in scoring year after year (sometimes second on your team) isnt enough to make you an all time great as an offensive centreman.
Somebody better tell that to Jean Beliveau.

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yeah, he won a cup, but he didnt get MVP.
It was basically a pick 'em between he and Malkin. He was as deserving as anyone.

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yeah, he won gold but didnt get tournament all star, had only a couple of points in the last 4 games and except for blindly flinging a puck at the net in the end was invisible during the olympics.
He finished 2nd on Team Canada in goals and points and had two game-winners. It wasn't his best tourney, but he was anything but invisible.

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he only has one scoring title in 5 years.
Only one other player has more than that in the time frame.

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i dont buy the whole 'complete player' argument with crosby
“He’s a complete player, much like Michael Jordan in basketball. Every year they’d try to find something wrong with his game but he just got better and better. Not that anyone has ever criticized Sidney’s game but you’ve watched every part of his game improve.

“And we’ve seen it first hand in the playoffs, he’s really winning faceoffs and now he just scored his 40th goal. He’s a complete player, he does everything well. And he’s really, really driven, he’s really, really motivated. The coach can use him in any situation, he can play any kind of hockey." - Steve Yzerman

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....he never kills a second of any penalty
Actually, he kills about a minute of penalties every game.

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, he is top 3 in scoring but his +/- is 30 points lower than the other players in that tier....
+/-? Care to retract that before it gets torn apart as an indicator of defensive ability?

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08-16-2010, 12:20 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
It was basically a pick 'em between he and Malkin. He was as deserving as anyone.
I agree with everything else you said, but this is just false. Malkin was the clearcut favorite for the Conn Smythe in 2009. Crosby might have been better early on, but Malkin was clearly better in the Conference finals and finals, when things mattered more.

The only way Crosby wins the Smythe in 2009 is if Malkin gets robbed by anti-Russian/pro-Canadian bias (which thankfully doesn't exist anymore, at least among those who actually have votes).

Crosby was very good in the 2009 playoffs, but Malkin was flat-out better, especially as the playoffs went on.

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08-16-2010, 12:29 AM
  #54
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I agree with everything else you said, but this is just false. Malkin was the clearcut favorite for the Conn Smythe in 2009. Crosby might have been better early on, but Malkin was clearly better in the Conference finals and finals, when things mattered more.

The only way Crosby wins the Smythe in 2009 is if Malkin gets robbed by anti-Russian/pro-Canadian bias (which thankfully doesn't exist anymore, at least among those who actually have votes).

Crosby was very good in the 2009 playoffs, but Malkin was flat-out better, especially as the playoffs went on.
Disagree completely. Crosby was clearly the better player through the first two rounds (and Geno had justifiably gotten flak for his performance there), Malkin was a phenomenon in the 3rd round but Crosby was still playing great, and Detroit based their entire gameplan around stopping Crosby, so the last series is tilted in Malkin's favour.

I understand why Malkin would get the award since there's no guesswork involved in him producing in the final series (Crosby did the heavy lifting vs. defensive superstars while Malkin put up points against the Wings' 2nd tier defensive players), but Crosby deserved it as much as anyone. He would have been a fine choice for the Conn Smythe.

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08-16-2010, 12:29 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
OMG NO ROOKIE OF THE YEAR!!!!?!?!?!!! ZOMG ONLY ONE SCORING TITLE IN 5 YEARS!!!!

Crosby should have won the MVP in 2009. They gave it to a guy who had 5 more points, but piled up some of them in blowouts, sucked on faceoffs, and led the playoffs in minor penalties.
It took me awhile to figure out you meant the 2009 playoffs, not any regular season. I really think Malkin was the clear-cut MVP. He absolutely dominated the final 2 rounds. He was unstoppable, in a way that I hadn't seen since Sakic in the 1996 playoffs.

If Crosby was robbed of anything, it was the 2010 Hart, when he finished 3 points behind Sedin, scored 22 more goals, had far more defensive responsibilities, and had less help from his teammates. IMO, the 2010 Hart was all about "find someone other than Crosby and Ovechkin to give an award to."

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Beliveau made a career out of finishing 3rd in scoring year after year (7 times, actually) and he is a consensus top-10 player.
True. I've said before that Crosby/Ovechkin could be our modern day Jean Beliveau/Bobby Hull.

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Do you watch much hockey?
Heh seriously. "Crosby doesn't kill a second of penalties." It's hard to take anything you say seriously when you make such a ridiculously false statement of fact. Crosby has absolutely become one of the better two-way forwards in the game. He spent far more time on the PK than either Ovechkin or Sedin last season.

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08-16-2010, 12:32 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Disagree completely. Crosby was clearly the better player through the first two rounds (and Geno had justifiably gotten flak for his performance there), Malkin was a phenomenon in the 3rd round but Crosby was still playing great, and Detroit based their entire gameplan around stopping Crosby, so the last series is tilted in Malkin's favour.
The only round that Crosby was clearly over Malkin was the 2nd round vs. Washington. Crosby basically cancelled out Ovechkin, but Malkin still played well enough to outperform Washignton's secondary scoring. I thought they were even in round one, Malkin clearly better in the Conference finals. And yes, Crosby and Zetterberg basically cancelled each other out in the finals, but Malkin was the guy who always picked up the slack.

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I understand why Malkin would get the award since there's no guesswork involved in him producing in the final series (Crosby did the heavy lifting vs. defensive superstars while Malkin put up points against the Wings' 2nd tier defensive players), but Crosby deserved it as much as anyone. He would have been a fine choice for the Conn Smythe.
I guess it's a personal thing - I prefer giving the Smythe to the player who was better over the final 2 rounds if there are guys who are close, and that was clearly Malkin. It wasn't just how many points Malkin scored in the final 2 rounds, it was when he scored them, and how he scored them.

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08-16-2010, 12:40 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I guess it's a personal thing - I prefer giving the Smythe to the player who was better over the final 2 rounds if there are guys who are close, and that was clearly Malkin. It wasn't just how many points Malkin scored in the final 2 rounds, it was when he scored them, and how he scored them.
The gap between Crosby and Malkin in the latter part of the Flyer series and most of the Caps series was much greater than the gap between Malkin and Sid vs. the Canes. Malkin was literally useless during his early playoff funk, while Crosby was still playing a stellar all-around game in the 3rd round and ended up with 7 points in 4 games. Keep in mind that when Crosby's not scoring he remains a very useful player because of his tenacity and faceoffs - when Malkin isn't scoring, he's usually a floater who can't win a faceoff to save his life.

Malkin did score against the Wings while Crosby didn't, to be sure. But I think when the best coach of the league identifies an opposition player as the main threat and gets his best defensive players to shadow him, the one who produces against the 2nd tier guys should have his production put into context.

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08-16-2010, 03:26 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Malkin did score against the Wings while Crosby didn't, to be sure. But I think when the best coach of the league identifies an opposition player as the main threat and gets his best defensive players to shadow him, the one who produces against the 2nd tier guys should have his production put into context.
I agree that Crosby got the worse matchup of the two but it's hard for me to say that he should have won the Conn Smythe because he had bad matchups, that's not really how it works. Fair or not, only production matters for that trophy.

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08-16-2010, 03:30 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If Crosby was robbed of anything, it was the 2010 Hart, when he finished 3 points behind Sedin, scored 22 more goals, had far more defensive responsibilities, and had less help from his teammates. IMO, the 2010 Hart was all about "find someone other than Crosby and Ovechkin to give an award to."
It's hard to figure out who was the best choice for the Hart this year. I'm not sure I think Sedin deserved it but it was hard to find a better candidate. My main problem with Crosby was that he was really inconsistent. He had far more pointless games than both OV and Sedin and he really struggled when the Pens had injury-problems. Sedin played in the tougher conference which should be factored in.


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08-16-2010, 03:40 AM
  #60
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As for the "complete game argument" it does have some merit, Crosby is better in his own end. However, with really great player I would generally say it's less important (not saying it's not important) to be a great two-way player. The reason is that when they are out on the ice the opposing team generally only cares about preventing them from scoring. In that way it didn't matter much that Lemieux and Gretzky were bad in the defensive end, they still outscored the opposition badly.

While Ovechkin is not in their ballpark it seems to be working for him as well. Last season he was +45 which would suggest that despite bad defensive play from him (and others, say, Green...) it didn't really cost him a lot of goals in his own end. So far it seems to have worked in the playoffs as well (Caps have lost games when Ovechkin wasn't on the ice) but the sample size is small so time will tell if his game style will translate into playoff success.

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08-16-2010, 06:29 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Sorry, but only a Crosby homer would give him the edge for their first seasons. Ovechkin had more points, far more goals, and was a more complete player at that point. He won the Calder in convincing fashion. Who cares how old they were? You don't win games by how old you are, you win by how well you performed on the ice. Crosby's younger age gives him a chance to tack on 2 more elite seasons to his totals, which may help make him greater in an all-time sense, but it's far from a guarantee.
In terms of Hart and Calder voting, yes, Ovechkin was far better in the 05-06 season, but the HoH considers things on a deeper level. The HoH looks at things in an all-time sense with all things considered. For example, Gordie Howe (rightfully) gets a lot of credit for getting .5 PPG at the age of 51. That's an incredible accomplishment that has never and will never be done again. In terms of all-time accomplishments, it's huge, but in terms of seasons, in terms of comparing to his peers, it was very average.

Same thing with their rookie seasons. Crosby had the best season ever as an 18 year old. Ovechkin had a very, very good season as a 20 year old. One of those accomplishments is far superior in my mind.


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I won't even care to read further as Ovechkin proofed in his rookie season that offensive production is hardly affected by teammates.

This is a great post regarding your theory.

Okay, it's my thinking that if you aren't going to read an argument, then you shouldn't even be involved in an argument, but anyways..

Clearly both Crosby and Ovechkin can get their points regardless of their linemates, as evidenced by Ovechkin early on and Crosby later on. But it's not up for debate that Crosby and Ovechkin are both capable of benefiting from better players.

Neither of them play in a vacuum. Ovechkin is becoming more and more of a passer and is getting more and more assists since he's been playing with someone capable of handling his passes. And he has had a number of goals somewhat-gifted to him by Backstrom. If you just watch the 2 play together, you can tell it's a mutually beneficial relationship. Ovechkin's points would drop if he went back to playing with Zubrus or whatever godawful center he started off playing with.

And I don't see how you can say Crosby WOULDN'T have a rise in points if he played with some wingers who could finish. Crosby, a playmaker, makes (Or at least, made) his paycheck by making beautiful feeds. How many times has he seen a beautiful feed ruined by someone with no hands fanning on the shot or missing the net? Quite often, and it's getting worse it seems. Not to mention how often he has to waste time backchecking after someone like Guerin loses the puck during the cycle. It's painful to watch. Crosby would get an extra 10-20 points a season with a good winger, not even another Hossa, just someone who can capitalize on chances and not lose the puck on every shift.

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08-16-2010, 06:51 PM
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I agree that Crosby got the worse matchup of the two but it's hard for me to say that he should have won the Conn Smythe because he had bad matchups, that's not really how it works. Fair or not, only production matters for that trophy.
I don't think history has shown that. Among other examples, Crosby produced at a better rate than Zetterberg in '08 but lost the trophy on account of the Wings winning and Z's superior defensive game. There are several other factors that come into play besides production.

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Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
And I don't see how you can say Crosby WOULDN'T have a rise in points if he played with some wingers who could finish. Crosby, a playmaker, makes (Or at least, made) his paycheck by making beautiful feeds. How many times has he seen a beautiful feed ruined by someone with no hands fanning on the shot or missing the net? Quite often, and it's getting worse it seems. Not to mention how often he has to waste time backchecking after someone like Guerin loses the puck during the cycle. It's painful to watch. Crosby would get an extra 10-20 points a season with a good winger, not even another Hossa, just someone who can capitalize on chances and not lose the puck on every shift.
I've yet to watch a game with any hockey fan - regardless of their allegiances - who doesn't straight-up laugh at all the chances Crosby creates that Guerin thwarts.

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08-16-2010, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post

Okay, it's my thinking that if you aren't going to read an argument, then you shouldn't even be involved in an argument, but anyways..

Clearly both Crosby and Ovechkin can get their points regardless of their linemates, as evidenced by Ovechkin early on and Crosby later on. But it's not up for debate that Crosby and Ovechkin are both capable of benefiting from better players.

Neither of them play in a vacuum. Ovechkin is becoming more and more of a passer and is getting more and more assists since he's been playing with someone capable of handling his passes. And he has had a number of goals somewhat-gifted to him by Backstrom. If you just watch the 2 play together, you can tell it's a mutually beneficial relationship. Ovechkin's points would drop if he went back to playing with Zubrus or whatever godawful center he started off playing with.
Zubrus played center when he played with Ovechkin. I believe it was Ovechkin-Zubrus-Clark.

And why would Ovechkin's points drop off if he were playing with worse players? When he won the Art Ross in 07-08 with 112 points (the highest of his career), Backstrom was a 69 point rookie. Viktor Kozlov, who often centered Oveckhkin, scored 54 points.

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And I don't see how you can say Crosby WOULDN'T have a rise in points if he played with some wingers who could finish. Crosby, a playmaker, makes (Or at least, made) his paycheck by making beautiful feeds. How many times has he seen a beautiful feed ruined by someone with no hands fanning on the shot or missing the net? Quite often, and it's getting worse it seems. Not to mention how often he has to waste time backchecking after someone like Guerin loses the puck during the cycle. It's painful to watch. Crosby would get an extra 10-20 points a season with a good winger, not even another Hossa, just someone who can capitalize on chances and not lose the puck on every shift.
Crosby would definitely see a slight rise in points with wingers who were at least competent. But he wouldn't have that many more points - he'd certainly have fewer goals if he had wingers who could shoot the puck better. Also, it's historically very rare for a player of Crosby's calibre to play with linemates as bad as he has had.

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08-16-2010, 07:15 PM
  #64
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And why would Ovechkin's points drop off if he were playing with worse players? When he won the Art Ross in 07-08 with 112 points (the highest of his career), Backstrom was a 69 point rookie. Viktor Kozlov, who often centered Oveckhkin, scored 54 points.
Why would Ovechkin's points drop? Because we're talking in the now. His point totals would drop now. He wouldn't have had a 1.5 PPG last season with Zubrus. I'm not saying he'd be out of a job and playing in a beer league, but he would have dropped a couple points.

I'm not discounting what he did with average linemates. Both Crosby and Ovechkin (And Geno Malkin) are the only active players that can with a scoring title single-handedly, but I'm just saying his spectacular season this year was helped by Backstrom. Backstrom was phenomenal. Backstrom is a ~.1 PPG difference.

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08-16-2010, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
Why would Ovechkin's points drop? Because we're talking in the now. His point totals would drop now. He wouldn't have had a 1.5 PPG last season with Zubrus. I'm not saying he'd be out of a job and playing in a beer league, but he would have dropped a couple points.
And yet, he had the best season of his career in 07-08, playing with guys no better than Zubrus.

Edit: I get that it makes sense that guys like Ovechkin and Crosby would score more points with better linemates. But since they entered the league, their production has been pretty steady, no matter their linemates (minus Ovechkin's awful - by his standards - second year).

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08-16-2010, 07:27 PM
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And yet, he had the best season of his career in 07-08, playing with guys no better than Zubrus.

Yes, he was much better than Crosby that season. Absolutely. Full credit to him. But moving forward... I still think that Crosby would be taking last year's and next year's Art Ross with someone who wasn't as counterproductive as Guerin or no-hands-Dupuis.

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08-16-2010, 07:29 PM
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Yes, he was much better than Crosby that season. Absolutely. Full credit to him. But moving forward... I still think that Crosby would be taking last year's and next year's Art Ross with someone who wasn't as counterproductive as Guerin or no-hands-Dupuis.
I definitely agree about last years. He was only 3 points behind Sedin, and even I agree that Sid's crappy linemates likely cost him at least that many points (in addition to being the reason he relied more on scoring goals himself).

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08-16-2010, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
And yet, he had the best season of his career in 07-08, playing with guys no better than Zubrus.

Edit: I get that it makes sense that guys like Ovechkin and Crosby would score more points with better linemates. But since they entered the league, their production has been pretty steady, no matter their linemates (minus Ovechkin's awful - by his standards - second year).
Nah. He frequently played on a line with Backstrom that year:

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpo...ations&sent=go

Not coincidentally, Crosby hadn't played consistent ES minutes with anyone that skilled or productive since he won the Art Ross in '07. He's been saddled with 40-50 point getters.

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08-16-2010, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Nah. He frequently played on a line with Backstrom that year:

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpo...ations&sent=go

Not coincidentally, Crosby hadn't played consistent ES minutes with anyone that skilled or productive since he won the Art Ross in '07. He's been saddled with 40-50 point getters.

Well, Hossa in the 08 playoffs. And not coincidentally, he wasn't shut down by Detroit that season.

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08-16-2010, 08:13 PM
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Well, Hossa in the 08 playoffs. And not coincidentally, he wasn't shut down by Detroit that season.
Yep. Didn't think that fit the criteria though.

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08-17-2010, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Nah. He frequently played on a line with Backstrom that year:

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpo...ations&sent=go

Not coincidentally, Crosby hadn't played consistent ES minutes with anyone that skilled or productive since he won the Art Ross in '07. He's been saddled with 40-50 point getters.
Was 69 point rookie Backstrom better than 57 point vet Dainius Zubrus? If he was, it wasn't by much. Ovechkin scored 106 points to Zubrus's 57 in 2005-06 and 112 points to Backstrom's 69 in 2007-08.

Was 07-08 really so long ago? The reason Ovechkin's season was considered so amazing wasn't just that he became the first 60 goal scorer (nevermind 65) in ages. It was that he did it with basically no help.

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08-17-2010, 10:46 AM
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Was 69 point rookie Backstrom better than 57 point vet Dainius Zubrus? If he was, it wasn't by much. Ovechkin scored 106 points to Zubrus's 57 in 2005-06 and 112 points to Backstrom's 69 in 2007-08.

Was 07-08 really so long ago? The reason Ovechkin's season was considered so amazing wasn't just that he became the first 60 goal scorer (nevermind 65) in ages. It was that he did it with basically no help.
The league averaged 6.17 goals per game in 05-06, compared to 5.57 in 07-08. That's a difference of .6 goals more every game on average. Fairly significant difference. His 05-06 season adjusted to the scoring in 07-08 is 96 points. So yes, while Ovechkin has improved since his rookie season obviously, he has also most certainly benefitted fairly well from his linemates.

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08-17-2010, 10:50 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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The following are facts:

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Originally Posted by Ryan87 View Post
The league averaged 6.17 goals per game in 05-06, compared to 5.57 in 07-08. That's a difference of .6 goals more every game on average. Fairly significant difference. His 05-06 season adjusted to the scoring in 07-08 is 96 points.
But I still don't see how the following statement follows from the facts when his linemates were barely better than they were his rookie year:

Quote:
So yes, while Ovechkin has improved since his rookie season obviously, he has also most certainly benefitted fairly well from his linemates.
Seriously, is 07-08 really so long ago that we don't remember how the story was that Ovechkin did it all with no help?

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08-17-2010, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Was 69 point rookie Backstrom better than 57 point vet Dainius Zubrus? If he was, it wasn't by much. Ovechkin scored 106 points to Zubrus's 57 in 2005-06 and 112 points to Backstrom's 69 in 2007-08.

Was 07-08 really so long ago? The reason Ovechkin's season was considered so amazing wasn't just that he became the first 60 goal scorer (nevermind 65) in ages. It was that he did it with basically no help.
Again, he did it with more help than Crosby's had for a long time. 69 points doesn't seem like a lot...until you compare it with 45. It's all relative.

I'm not saying Ovechkin couldn't produce well without Backstrom - he's obviously a top 3 player regardless, and he's a goal-scoring machine. But the difference between even a rookie Backstrom and modern-day Guerin is a gaping chasm.

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08-17-2010, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Again, he did it with more help than Crosby had on his line since '07, when he scored 120. 69 points doesn't seem like a lot...until you compare it with 45.

I'm not saying Ovechkin couldn't produce well without Backstrom - he's obviously a top 3 player regardless, and he's a goal-scoring machine. But the difference between even a rookie Backstrom and modern-day Guerin is a gaping chasm.
Yeah I really don't see how it is possible to not agree Crosby would do a bit better production wise with better wingers.

I think both he and Malkin suffered recently to Gonchar being injured a fair bit too... and now Gonchar is gone.

Obviously both Crosby and Ovechkin can produce quite a bit on their own but almost anyone can produce better with better players around them.

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