HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

So after 09-10, are Crosby and Ovie in the HoH top 100 yet?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-17-2010, 02:11 PM
  #76
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,949
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yeah I really don't see how it is possible to not agree Crosby would do a bit better production wise with better wingers.

I think both he and Malkin suffered recently to Gonchar being injured a fair bit too... and now Gonchar is gone.

Obviously both Crosby and Ovechkin can produce quite a bit on their own but almost anyone can produce better with better players around them.
I definitely agree that Crosby would have a few more points if he competent scoring line wingers.

I'm just not so sure that a 69 point Backstrom who sometimes played with Ovechkin had much of an effect on his numbers. If anything, the fact that Backstrom has matured into a 100 point player and Ovechkin's numbers have remained pretty much the same, shows that Backstrom probably isn't helping Ovechkin's personal numbers.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2010, 02:34 PM
  #77
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,390
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I definitely agree that Crosby would have a few more points if he competent scoring line wingers.

I'm just not so sure that a 69 point Backstrom who sometimes played with Ovechkin had much of an effect on his numbers. If anything, the fact that Backstrom has matured into a 100 point player and Ovechkin's numbers have remained pretty much the same, shows that Backstrom probably isn't helping Ovechkin's personal numbers.
Ovechkin was on track for 124 points this year.

As always how much of the improvement is Ovechkin himself and how much is his help is up for debate but he was on track for his best production this year.

It probably helps the Capitals a lot that he isn't the only real option any longer too though.. his 07-08 season was monstrous.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2010, 07:28 PM
  #78
SidGenoMario
Registered User
 
SidGenoMario's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Ovechkin's numbers have remained pretty much the same, shows that Backstrom probably isn't helping Ovechkin's personal numbers.
Really not true though. The important stat, PPG, keeps going up. The season Backstrom really grew as a player is the season Ovechkin's PPG average jumped to a 1.5 (And was even higher halfway through the season). That's not coincidence. As Backstrom gets better and Better, Ovechkin's points per game gets better and better.

SidGenoMario is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-17-2010, 07:40 PM
  #79
eXile59
Shirts on.
 
eXile59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 16,343
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yeah I really don't see how it is possible to not agree Crosby would do a bit better production wise with better wingers.

I think both he and Malkin suffered recently to Gonchar being injured a fair bit too... and now Gonchar is gone.Obviously both Crosby and Ovechkin can produce quite a bit on their own but almost anyone can produce better with better players around them.
I'm sure it hurt them a little but I think they can fair pretty well given the fact Gonchar has played 82 games in two season, yet both have put up great numbers in those two seasons.

eXile59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-21-2010, 12:56 AM
  #80
peter sullivan
Winnipeg
 
peter sullivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Somebody better tell that to Jean Beliveau.
It was basically a pick 'em between he and Malkin. He was as deserving as anyone.

He finished 2nd on Team Canada in goals and points and had two game-winners. It wasn't his best tourney, but he was anything but invisible.

Only one other player has more than that in the time frame.

“He’s a complete player, much like Michael Jordan in basketball. Every year they’d try to find something wrong with his game but he just got better and better. Not that anyone has ever criticized Sidney’s game but you’ve watched every part of his game improve.

“And we’ve seen it first hand in the playoffs, he’s really winning faceoffs and now he just scored his 40th goal. He’s a complete player, he does everything well. And he’s really, really driven, he’s really, really motivated. The coach can use him in any situation, he can play any kind of hockey." - Steve Yzerman

Actually, he kills about a minute of penalties every game.

+/-? Care to retract that before it gets torn apart as an indicator of defensive ability?

well, whatever you think +/- shows, crosby isnt very good at it.

jb won 10 stanley cups

he clearly wasnt as deserving as anyone for playoff mvp, because he didnt win it.

only one player has more scoring titles in the past 5 years?...you realize that mathematiclly it is only possible to have two.

he had 2 points on the last 21 goals canada scored over the final 4 games of the olympics.

no argument that he is a very good player, one of the best in the league today, but he is still overrated in a historical context by the media and most current hockey fans. (not necessarily those here.)....he is routinely compared to the best of all time.


Last edited by peter sullivan: 08-21-2010 at 01:46 AM.
peter sullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-21-2010, 01:04 AM
  #81
peter sullivan
Winnipeg
 
peter sullivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Heh seriously. "Crosby doesn't kill a second of penalties." It's hard to take anything you say seriously when you make such a ridiculously false statement of fact. Crosby has absolutely become one of the better two-way forwards in the game. He spent far more time on the PK than either Ovechkin or Sedin last season.
crosby was 12th on his team in penalty killing minutes....perhaps i overstated to make a point.

peter sullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-21-2010, 01:14 AM
  #82
SidGenoMario
Registered User
 
SidGenoMario's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
no argument that he is a very good player, but he is still overrated by the media and most current hockey fans. (not necessarily those here.)

I never understood this, he's rated as a top 2 player in the league, and IMO, he quite clearly is.

SidGenoMario is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-21-2010, 01:49 AM
  #83
RabbinsDuck
Registered User
 
RabbinsDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Brighton, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,736
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by matnor View Post
I agree that Crosby got the worse matchup of the two but it's hard for me to say that he should have won the Conn Smythe because he had bad matchups, that's not really how it works. Fair or not, only production matters for that trophy.
Agreed... Great players still find a way to produce - it is not exactly a new thing to target a first line with the best defense.

I still find both Crosby and Ovechkin a bit lacking in terms of all-time value, but I believe they are both Hall-of-Famers if they retired tomorrow.

RabbinsDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-21-2010, 11:47 AM
  #84
Badger36
Registered User
 
Badger36's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Columbus, OH
Country: United States
Posts: 2,313
vCash: 500
Both easily make the hall, IMO. You could make the arguement that Ovi isnt as worthy because he doesnt have a Stanley Cup or olympic gold, but thats much more a product of the supporting cast than individual effort.

Badger36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-21-2010, 11:51 AM
  #85
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,349
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBucky View Post
Crosby is a lock, not sure about Ovechkin. As much as I like Ovi, I just dont think that he has yet proven that he is good enough to be worthy.
There is probably only 1 or 2 players ever to have as good a first 5 seasons in the NHL as Ovechin (and Crosby isn't one of them).

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-22-2010, 02:50 PM
  #86
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,051
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
There is probably only 1 or 2 players ever to have as good a first 5 seasons in the NHL as Ovechin (and Crosby isn't one of them).
You are joking right?

Crosby did captain his team to a Stanley Cup, it's not like he was a passenger on that ride.

Granted he has missed a couple of games due to injury but his PPG is up there with AO.actually crosby is ahead in that count to 1.36 to 1.34

counting stats here is how they stack up

396-269-260-529
371-183-323-506

through in the fact that Sid will have 7 seasons under his belt at the same age that AO had 5 and that puts him quite a bit ahead of him on their races to the top 10 and maybe top 5 of all time.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-22-2010, 09:31 PM
  #87
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,349
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
You are joking right?

Crosby did captain his team to a Stanley Cup, it's not like he was a passenger on that ride.

Granted he has missed a couple of games due to injury but his PPG is up there with AO.actually crosby is ahead in that count to 1.36 to 1.34

counting stats here is how they stack up

396-269-260-529
371-183-323-506

through in the fact that Sid will have 7 seasons under his belt at the same age that AO had 5 and that puts him quite a bit ahead of him on their races to the top 10 and maybe top 5 of all time.
The tale of the hardware:

Crosby - 1 Hart, 1 Ross, 1 Richard, 1 Lindsay, 1 FTA, 1 STA
Ovechhin - 2 Hart, 1 Ross, 2 Richard, 3 Lindsay, 5 FTA, 1 Calder

No joke. Best first 5 years, Ovie, as I said. Perhaps only Gretzky's were better.

What happens after that no one knows.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-22-2010, 09:53 PM
  #88
SidGenoMario
Registered User
 
SidGenoMario's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
The tale of the hardware:

Crosby - 1 Hart, 1 Ross, 1 Richard, 1 Lindsay, 1 FTA, 1 STA
Ovechhin - 2 Hart, 1 Ross, 2 Richard, 3 Lindsay, 5 FTA, 1 Calder

No joke. Best first 5 years, Ovie, as I said. Perhaps only Gretzky's were better.

What happens after that no one knows.

Ha, good one. And Sedin was the best player in the world this year in your mind?

SidGenoMario is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-22-2010, 10:01 PM
  #89
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,349
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
Ha, good one. And Sedin was the best player in the world this year in your mind?
Interesting response.

Just not sure to what.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-22-2010, 10:45 PM
  #90
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
Spreadin Cheer;Mumps
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 44,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
well, whatever you think +/- shows, crosby isnt very good at it.
Come again?

Quote:
jb won 10 stanley cups
This is not news.

Quote:
he clearly wasnt as deserving as anyone for playoff mvp, because he didnt win it.
If two players have an equal claim, only one can win it. Crosby was as good as any player in the playoffs, he simply got the indescribably more difficult assignment in the last series because the best coach in the world identified him as the primary threat on the Pens.

Quote:
he had 2 points on the last 21 goals canada scored over the final 4 games of the olympics.
He didn't have his best sequence of games. The funny thing is, a less-than-stellar tournament for Crosby still has him 2nd in team scoring with 2 game-winning goals, 1 of which won the Olympic gold in OT.

Quote:
no argument that he is a very good player, one of the best in the league today, but he is still overrated in a historical context by the media and most current hockey fans. (not necessarily those here.)....he is routinely compared to the best of all time.
Where is this overrating? You're the one that threw a vague "media top 10" ranking out there.

You won't find many all-time legends who had a resume as impressive as Crosby's at 23. That's why he's projected to rate so highly in an all-time context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
The tale of the hardware:

Crosby - 1 Hart, 1 Ross, 1 Richard, 1 Lindsay, 1 FTA, 1 STA
Ovechhin - 2 Hart, 1 Ross, 2 Richard, 3 Lindsay, 5 FTA, 1 Calder

No joke. Best first 5 years, Ovie, as I said. Perhaps only Gretzky's were better.

What happens after that no one knows.
What's the tale of the playoffs? Or does that not matter when evaluating players?


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 08-22-2010 at 10:54 PM.
Rowdy Roddy Peeper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-22-2010, 11:05 PM
  #91
SidGenoMario
Registered User
 
SidGenoMario's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Interesting response.

Just not sure to what.

My point being that you can't just count trophies. Henrik Sedin won the Hart this year and was not the best player in the league.

While we're just counting trophies and throwing all semblance of logic and understanding out the window, do you think Jose Theodore is equal to Jaromir Jagr? Ray Bourque and Nick Lidstrom don't have any Hart Trophies, they must be complete crap..

SidGenoMario is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-22-2010, 11:28 PM
  #92
ushvinder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
The tale of the hardware:

Crosby - 1 Hart, 1 Ross, 1 Richard, 1 Lindsay, 1 FTA, 1 STA
Ovechhin - 2 Hart, 1 Ross, 2 Richard, 3 Lindsay, 5 FTA, 1 Calder

No joke. Best first 5 years, Ovie, as I said. Perhaps only Gretzky's were better.

What happens after that no one knows.
Bobby Orr and Mario both had better 5 years than Ovechkin, there's more to greatness than trophies. Lemeiux's 1988 and 1989 season are better than anything Ovechkin will ever do his whole career. Bobby Orr's 1970 and 1971 seasons are an entire galaxy above Ovechkin and he won a conn smythe.

If Gretzky didnt exist in 1986 and 1987, Lemieux would win scoring titles both years. Gretzky is much better competition than henrik sedin and evgeni malkin.

ushvinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-23-2010, 07:52 PM
  #93
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,349
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=Champagne Wishes;27485428]Come again?



This is not news.



If two players have an equal claim, only one can win it. Crosby was as good as any player in the playoffs, he simply got the indescribably more difficult assignment in the last series because the best coach in the world identified him as the primary threat on the Pens.



He didn't have his best sequence of games. The funny thing is, a less-than-stellar tournament for Crosby still has him 2nd in team scoring with 2 game-winning goals, 1 of which won the Olympic gold in OT.



Where is this overrating? You're the one that threw a vague "media top 10" ranking out there.

You won't find many all-time legends who had a resume as impressive as Crosby's at 23. That's why he's projected to rate so highly in an all-time context.



What's the tale of the playoffs? Or does that not matter when evaluating players?[/QUOTE]

Ovechkin has a .714 goals per game average in the playoffs. That ranks numero uno all-time. Guess he's done OK in the playoffs.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-23-2010, 07:59 PM
  #94
SidGenoMario
Registered User
 
SidGenoMario's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
That ranks numero uno all-time. Guess he's done OK in the playoffs.

That's really impressive, I didn't know that. It'll fall when he reaches the 3rd and 4th rounds, but still, very impressive.

SidGenoMario is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-23-2010, 08:11 PM
  #95
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,349
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
My point being that you can't just count trophies. Henrik Sedin won the Hart this year and was not the best player in the league.

While we're just counting trophies and throwing all semblance of logic and understanding out the window, do you think Jose Theodore is equal to Jaromir Jagr? Ray Bourque and Nick Lidstrom don't have any Hart Trophies, they must be complete crap..
No semblence of logic and understanding does seem appropriate to this exchange, that's for sure.

Your first point is correct, Sedin was not the best player in the league this year. He was voted the most valuable. The most outstanding player in the league is the definition of the Lindsay Award, which was won by Ovechkin. For the 3rd straight year.

I'm comparing 2 players over the exact same time frame at the exact same point in their careers. OK, lets throw out the Awards these 2 great players have already garnered. What are we comparing them on now? Who's faster? Who's smarter? Who's better looking?

I take it you want to compare the success of their teams, correct? Well, that is exactly as stated, the success of their teams, not the success of the individuals.

Please make your argument for how Ovechkin hasn't had a better first 5 seasons than Crosby.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-23-2010, 08:14 PM
  #96
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,949
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
No semblence of logic and understanding does seem appropriate to this exchange, that's for sure.

Your first point is correct, Sedin was not the best player in the league this year. He was voted the most valuable. The most outstanding player in the league is the definition of the Lindsay Award, which was won by Ovechkin. For the 3rd straight year.

I'm comparing 2 players over the exact same time frame at the exact same point in their careers. OK, lets throw out the Awards these 2 great players have already garnered. What are we comparing them on now? Who's faster? Who's smarter? Who's better looking?

I take it you want to compare the success of their teams, correct? Well, that is exactly as stated, the success of their teams, not the success of the individuals.

Please make your argument for how Ovechkin hasn't had a better first 5 seasons than Crosby.
I agree that Oveckin has had a better first 5 years than Crosby, but the one thing I find concerning about Ovechkin's career is his tendency to disappear in elimination games, whether it be in Game 7 of the playoffs or the Olympics.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-23-2010, 08:25 PM
  #97
Passchendaele
Registered User
 
Passchendaele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Laval, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,554
vCash: 500
I don't care if he only played five seasons, Ovechkin is in the top 100 all-time.

He's got more individual awards in five years than Sakic or Yzerman in 20+ seasons.

Passchendaele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-23-2010, 08:33 PM
  #98
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,349
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Bobby Orr and Mario both had better 5 years than Ovechkin, there's more to greatness than trophies. Lemeiux's 1988 and 1989 season are better than anything Ovechkin will ever do his whole career. Bobby Orr's 1970 and 1971 seasons are an entire galaxy above Ovechkin and he won a conn smythe.

If Gretzky didnt exist in 1986 and 1987, Lemieux would win scoring titles both years. Gretzky is much better competition than henrik sedin and evgeni malkin.
As well as offensive numbers.

If you think Mario's first five seasons were as good as Ovechkin's, I take it you didn't see him play much in those years.

When Mario came into the league his first great accomplishment was to play less defense than Gretzky. His effort was negligible defensively for most of his first 3 seasons. And unlike Gretzky's situation, this was a huge detriment to the success of his team. It took until his 5th season to get into a playoff game, but it was really in his 4th season that Mario started to carry the Penguins as a player & leader.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-23-2010, 08:44 PM
  #99
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,349
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I agree that Oveckin has had a better first 5 years than Crosby, but the one thing I find concerning about Ovechkin's career is his tendency to disappear in elimination games, whether it be in Game 7 of the playoffs or the Olympics.
Could be a maturity thing. Could be a Russian thing. Has there ever been a Russian player that has been the true leader of an NHL team?

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-23-2010, 08:50 PM
  #100
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,949
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Could be a maturity thing. Could be a Russian thing. Has there ever been a Russian player that has been the true leader of an NHL team?
While Fedorov was certainly never the leader of the Red Wings, he was always good in the playoffs, even when they lost, even when Yzerman and/or Lidstrom had bad games or series.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:46 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.