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Forsberg vs. Clarke

View Poll Results: Peter Forsberg or Bobby Clarke
Clarke 69 78.41%
Forsberg 19 21.59%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-20-2010, 02:29 AM
  #26
ushvinder
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
First of all, that was just one Hart out of 3. Second of all, how can you say that? Sure, Orr put up all those numbers and got the corresponding individual awards, but where did that get his team? 4th in the conference. Clarke on the other hand, with MacLeish, Leach, and Barber (as opposed to Esposito, Bucyk, Hodge), got his team to a tie for 1st place in the entire league.

I can totally "excuse" voters for seeing Clarke as "more valuable" (especially in a team success context) than Orr in '75. I certainly see no reasonable grounds for calling it a "sympathy vote", especially with Philly having gone on to win the Cup that year (not that post season impacts Hart voting, but we can certainly use hindsight now to say that Clarke didn't need any "sympathy" that year as he was parading around with the Cup).
So, a forward is still the best player, even though a defensemen outscored him by 20 points and had a better plus minus. The flyers also happened to have bernie parent and an excellent defense on thier team, love it how you give bobby clarke all the credit. Bobby Orr is on the ice longer each game and he's putting up more points on the scoresheet, that would indicate he's the more valuable player. It really doesn't matter to me if Clarke won the hart in either 1973 or 1975, the only year where I would truly say he was the best player is 1976, that's it. He wasn't the best in 73 or 75 and a Hart trophy wont change that. Norris, Lester B Pearson and Art Ross together blows away the importance of a hart, which is based more on the opinion of a writer.


Last edited by ushvinder: 08-20-2010 at 02:43 AM.
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08-20-2010, 03:02 AM
  #27
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I cant stand how much is Forsberg overrated.
Sure one of the best players of his era, but nowhere near the generational talent. He was only one of the top stars of Dead Puck Era with one very very good season.
I really don't get it. Clarke is crushing Forsberg in this is poll (which is reasonable) and basically most of the Forsberg threads that is started on this board complains about the Forsberg hype. How is he overrated?

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08-20-2010, 03:22 AM
  #28
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I really don't get it. Clarke is crushing Forsberg in this is poll (which is reasonable) and basically most of the Forsberg threads that is started on this board complains about the Forsberg hype. How is he overrated?
Many users think he was best player during 1995-2003 and that he was generational talent and he is compared to Crosby/Ovechkin in gap between him/them and rest of the league. But he was nowhere near that gap. He was only one of the best during that era. Jagr is arguably best forward of that era and Forsberg is in one group with players like Karyia, Selanne, Sakic etc.

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08-20-2010, 04:34 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
So, a forward is still the best player, even though a defensemen outscored him by 20 points and had a better plus minus. The flyers also happened to have bernie parent and an excellent defense on thier team, love it how you give bobby clarke all the credit. Bobby Orr is on the ice longer each game and he's putting up more points on the scoresheet, that would indicate he's the more valuable player. It really doesn't matter to me if Clarke won the hart in either 1973 or 1975, the only year where I would truly say he was the best player is 1976, that's it. He wasn't the best in 73 or 75 and a Hart trophy wont change that. Norris, Lester B Pearson and Art Ross together blows away the importance of a hart, which is based more on the opinion of a writer.
No. Like you said, Orr won the award for "best/most outstanding player" (Pearson). Clarke won the award for "most valuable player" (Hart). IMO the voters got both right... or, rather, they didn't necessarily get either wrong. I certainly don't give "all the credit" to Clarke. Parent was great that year. Here's the thing though: goalies mostly keep games close, or keep you from losing them. It takes the team in front of them to actually go out and win games, as you need to move the puck in order to score, and score in order to avoid a 0-0 tie.

And when it comes to the teams in front of them, Clarke arguably pulled much more of a lion's share of his team's load that year than Orr pulled on his team. Or, relating back to the standings, Clarke did better in making his share count enough for the Flyers to end up tied for first in the league. Orr, and the share he pulled for his team, no matter how outstanding he was doing it, only got his team to 4th in the conference. Makes it a bit easier to consider Clarke the "more valuable", even though it's hardly arguable that Orr was "more outstanding".

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08-20-2010, 06:34 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Many users think he was best player during 1995-2003 and that he was generational talent and he is compared to Crosby/Ovechkin in gap between him/them and rest of the league. But he was nowhere near that gap. He was only one of the best during that era. Jagr is arguably best forward of that era and Forsberg is in one group with players like Karyia, Selanne, Sakic etc.
On the main board maybe (I don't read much there) but here I think it's the reversed. He is likely top-5 during 1995-2003 but not better than that.

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08-20-2010, 07:43 AM
  #31
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On the main board maybe (I don't read much there) but here I think it's the reversed. He is likely top-5 during 1995-2003 but not better than that.
I agree with this.

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08-20-2010, 10:36 AM
  #32
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On the main board maybe (I don't read much there) but here I think it's the reversed. He is likely top-5 during 1995-2003 but not better than that.
I agree also.. Forsberg was a great player but he never stood out from his peers to a large degree.

The only time you could say he was the best player fairly definitively was 02-03 and the half of 03-04 he played.. both against historically weak competition.

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08-20-2010, 10:47 AM
  #33
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I agree also.. Forsberg was a great player but he never stood out from his peers to a large degree.

The only time you could say he was the best player fairly definitively was 02-03 and the half of 03-04 he played.. both against historically weak competition.
And even that year you're faced with the fact that, while he won the Hart as most valuable player, it was actually Naslund that walked away with the Pearson as most outstanding player. So even in his most "fairly definitive" year, he wasn't really clearly "better" than everyone else.

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08-20-2010, 12:15 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And even that year you're faced with the fact that, while he won the Hart as most valuable player, it was actually Naslund that walked away with the Pearson as most outstanding player. So even in his most "fairly definitive" year, he wasn't really clearly "better" than everyone else.
Well if you're going to use that argument then apparently Gretzky was only definitively the best player 5 times then?

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08-20-2010, 12:20 PM
  #35
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Forsberg wasn't beating out one of the best players in history for the Hart when he was playing. Clarke on the other hand was, I'll go with him.

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08-20-2010, 02:01 PM
  #36
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Well if you're going to use that argument then apparently Gretzky was only definitively the best player 5 times then?
Guess that's what happens when you play in the same league at the same time as Mario Lemieux. The fact that he still got 5 under those circumstances shows just how good he really was, doesn't it.

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08-20-2010, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Guess that's what happens when you play in the same league at the same time as Mario Lemieux. The fact that he still got 5 under those circumstances shows just how good he really was, doesn't it.
Steve Yzerman won it in a year where he wasn't remotely close to as good as Lemieux, and still clearly behind Gretzky as well. Mike Liut won it in 81 the first year Gretzky seperated himself from the pack. No reasonable hockey fans are going to argue any of those guys were better. That's why I don't put much stock into the award. LOL just noticed actually Lemieux won it in 86! Lemieux had 141 points, Gretzky had 163 assists!


Last edited by Infinite Vision*: 08-20-2010 at 02:48 PM.
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08-20-2010, 02:47 PM
  #38
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Steve Yzerman won it in a year where he wasn't remotely close to as good as Gretzky and Lemieux. Mike Liut won it in 81 the first year Gretzky seperated himself from the pack. No reasonable hockey fans are going to argue any of those guys were better. That's why I don't put much stock into the award. LOL just noticed actually Lemieux won it in 86! Lemieux had 141 points, Gretzky had 163 assists!
Not to mention the fact that Orr only won a single Pearson himself. I realize that the opinions of a player's peers matter, but Pearson/Lindsay voting has been pretty weird on a lot of occasions.

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08-20-2010, 10:31 PM
  #39
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He did miss 7 games as well. Also to Big Phil The lack of 30+ goal seasons by Forsberg compared to Clarke are due to low scoring era and injuries. He was on pace for 30+ 5 times, and would have been about 10 in the 70's/early 80's.
But it was still a very noticeable knock on Forsberg's career. The guy was never in Jagr's territory and one big reason was that he lacked being a sniper threat. In the postseason he did better, you just wonder why he never sustained it. Adjusted stats or not (I've never liked them) nothing more than 30 goals in any season for a superstar like him even in the dead puck era was often cited as a knock against him

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08-20-2010, 10:34 PM
  #40
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Not to mention the fact that Orr only won a single Pearson himself. I realize that the opinions of a player's peers matter, but Pearson/Lindsay voting has been pretty weird on a lot of occasions.
Yeah I mean, nothing against Jean Ratelle, he was spectacular in 1972, but you have to wonder how he beats Orr and Esposito for the award. Maybe the players wanted someone new? Who knows? But it goes to show you that it's harder to take a player's opinion seriously since they are obviously too busy to keep an eye on the rest of the talent on a daily basis in the NHL.

Yeah I have a few issues with the Pearson: Dionne in 1979, Liut in 1981, Lemieux in 1986 which should have been a unanimous decision for Gretzky, Yzerman (God Bless him) in 1989 leaving Mario empty handed

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08-20-2010, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan87 View Post
Steve Yzerman won it in a year where he wasn't remotely close to as good as Lemieux, and still clearly behind Gretzky as well. Mike Liut won it in 81 the first year Gretzky seperated himself from the pack. No reasonable hockey fans are going to argue any of those guys were better. That's why I don't put much stock into the award. LOL just noticed actually Lemieux won it in 86! Lemieux had 141 points, Gretzky had 163 assists!
Granted that Mario should of walked away with both that year but Yzerman was not "clearly behind" Gretzky in any way, shape or form.
What Stevie did that year considering what he had to work with, was just freakin amazing.

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08-20-2010, 10:37 PM
  #42
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Yeah I mean, nothing against Jean Ratelle, he was spectacular in 1972, but you have to wonder how he beats Orr and Esposito for the award. Maybe the players wanted someone new? Who knows? But it goes to show you that it's harder to take a player's opinion seriously since they are obviously too busy to keep an eye on the rest of the talent on a daily basis in the NHL.

Yeah I have a few issues with the Pearson: Dionne in 1979, Liut in 1981, Lemieux in 1986 which should have been a unanimous decision for Gretzky, Yzerman (God Bless him) in 1989 leaving Mario empty handed
Maybe they gave it to Dionne because he improved the scoring of his teammates. Charlie Simmer was no superstar before he came to LA.

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08-20-2010, 10:54 PM
  #43
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Clarke

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08-20-2010, 11:08 PM
  #44
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Maybe they gave it to Dionne because he improved the scoring of his teammates. Charlie Simmer was no superstar before he came to LA.
Maybe, but Trottier with his Art Ross, two way game and leadership en route to taking the Isles to the best record in the NHL is more impressive in my mind

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08-20-2010, 11:10 PM
  #45
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Maybe, but Trottier with his Art Ross, two way game and leadership en route to taking the Isles to the best record in the NHL is more impressive in my mind
Yeah thats true, in all of dionne's mega years he was always 2nd or 3rd best.

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08-21-2010, 12:58 AM
  #46
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Both good two way players does not really fit in this comparison.

Forsberg was a serviceable responsible two way player, while Clarke is one of the best defensive forwards of all time. In fact, he is so far ahead of Forsberg in the two way department that you may as well be comparing Datsyuk to Joe Thornton defensively.

Both were dirty does not really fit either. Clarke was one of the dirtiest players I ever saw lace them up, while Forsberg was.....Wait, why are we calling Forsberg a dirty player? He was physical, but never dirty in the sense of a goon. Maybe you could make a case for him being a diver, but not really dirty.

In any case, Forsberg was excellent on a "Per game basis". Healthy, he could have been ranked up with the Sakic's and Yzerman's. But even the Sakic's and Yzerman's are below Clarke on the totem pole and, well, Forsberg was not healthy.
You nailed it on all accounts, completely agree. Clarke by far.

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08-21-2010, 02:06 PM
  #47
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forsberg in his prime dominated the league and not clark

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08-21-2010, 02:46 PM
  #48
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I'd go with Forsberg close though

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08-21-2010, 03:08 PM
  #49
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Maybe, but Trottier with his Art Ross, two way game and leadership en route to taking the Isles to the best record in the NHL is more impressive in my mind
I'm wondering if a vote split amongst Trots, Bossy and Potvin might have cost Trots the Pearson that year.

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08-21-2010, 03:08 PM
  #50
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Maybe, but Trottier with his Art Ross, two way game and leadership en route to taking the Isles to the best record in the NHL is more impressive in my mind
I'm wondering if a vote split amongst Trots, Bossy and Potvin might have cost Trots the Pearson that year. That might also be the reason Orr didn't win more than once.

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