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Forsberg vs. Clarke

View Poll Results: Peter Forsberg or Bobby Clarke
Clarke 69 78.41%
Forsberg 19 21.59%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-24-2010, 01:21 PM
  #126
begbeee
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I also remember back in 99 or 98 there was a debate in the hockey news magazine if Forsberg was better than Jagr.
No. It was debate about best player in the world and title on front page was saying:
Selanne or Jagr?
Somewhere in the forum there is a pic posted...

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08-24-2010, 01:56 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
If forsberg had a healthy career, he would have won the art ross in 2004, crack the top 10 in 2006 and probably have had more top 10 finishes. I would comfortably say Forsberg was better than Yzerman on a 'per game basis'. He also missed out the 2004-05 season due to the lockout.

Like another poster said, Forsberg was ranked 1st by the hockey news two sraight years. I also remember back in 99 or 98 there was a debate in the hockey news magazine if Forsberg was better than Jagr.
I also have a book which came out in early 97-98 where they rank the top 300 players. The debate between who the best player was now that Lemieux was gone, was between Jagr, Forsberg, and Lindros. It went Forsberg, Lindros, then Jagr in that order. People love to act like your crazy though if you say anyone thought Forsberg was the best player for more than one year.

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08-24-2010, 03:12 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
If forsberg had a healthy career, he would have won the art ross in 2004, crack the top 10 in 2006 and probably have had more top 10 finishes. I would comfortably say Forsberg was better than Yzerman on a 'per game basis'. He also missed out the 2004-05 season due to the lockout.

Like another poster said, Forsberg was ranked 1st by the hockey news two sraight years. I also remember back in 99 or 98 there was a debate in the hockey news magazine if Forsberg was better than Jagr.
I think you might be thinking of Lindros vs. Forsberg in the Hockey News back in 1997. I think for some odd reason, Forsberg won. It was weird then, and weird now. Lindros had Mario and Jagr as the better forwards, that was it back then.

As for Forsberg vs. Jagr. I've never seen a compelling case for Forsberg peak vs. peak. I thought that then, I think it even more now.

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08-24-2010, 04:46 PM
  #129
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No. It was debate about best player in the world and title on front page was saying:
Selanne or Jagr?
Somewhere in the forum there is a pic posted...
What?? I don't believe that. Selanne was never as good as Jagr; there should never have been a discussion about it at all.

The poster boys of the post-Lemieux era were Kariya, Jagr, Forsberg, and Lindros - I remember the article well. I'd be really, really surprised to see a 1998 or 1999 article that intends to seriously compare Jagr and Selanne.

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08-24-2010, 08:35 PM
  #130
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What?? I don't believe that. Selanne was never as good as Jagr; there should never have been a discussion about it at all.

The poster boys of the post-Lemieux era were Kariya, Jagr, Forsberg, and Lindros - I remember the article well. I'd be really, really surprised to see a 1998 or 1999 article that intends to seriously compare Jagr and Selanne.
Yeah there was though in The Hockey News in early 1998. I want to say January 1998. I have it in a pile at home here I should look it up. This is when THN was still a reputable magazine.

Now I've stated this before that even at that time it should have been a clear win for Jagr and the idea to compare these two should never have existed. But I try to get into people's heads. Jagr had lost Lemieux and there was always a stigma against him being able to dominate alone (we all know he did, but maybe at the time there were doubts). Remember, Francis was still a Penguin. Selanne on the other hand was rapidly becoming the better of the two between him and Kariya. He was 2nd in points in 1997, he lost Kariya to a holdout/concussion all year and was putting up a season where he scored 52 goals and led the league, and believe me the less you look at that Ducks team the better. So I guess I can see the idea even if I disagree with it

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08-25-2010, 02:08 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
What?? I don't believe that. Selanne was never as good as Jagr; there should never have been a discussion about it at all.

The poster boys of the post-Lemieux era were Kariya, Jagr, Forsberg, and Lindros - I remember the article well. I'd be really, really surprised to see a 1998 or 1999 article that intends to seriously compare Jagr and Selanne.
On this forum there is posted a pic somewhere in the one of many topics about Forsberg. In the photo on the first page of Hockey News there are Selanne and Jagre with big title: "Who is the best hockey player in the world" or something similar.
I am not blind, I know what I saw.
//: Oh, there is an answer for you, sorry.

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08-25-2010, 07:32 AM
  #132
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Never as Good?

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
What?? I don't believe that. Selanne was never as good as Jagr; there should never have been a discussion about it at all.

The poster boys of the post-Lemieux era were Kariya, Jagr, Forsberg, and Lindros - I remember the article well. I'd be really, really surprised to see a 1998 or 1999 article that intends to seriously compare Jagr and Selanne.
First four seasons, 1994, Jaromir Jagr did not even reach 35 goals while Selanne and Mogilny each had a 76 goal season.These numbers would have generated the typical cries about Selanne and Mogilny being robbed of Hart Trophies,projecting 5 phantom Hart's for each before 2000 with threads about them being in the HOH top 100.

Jagr would have been considered a draft bust with comparables to Jason Arnott's first season being thrown around.

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08-25-2010, 12:26 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
What?? I don't believe that. Selanne was never as good as Jagr; there should never have been a discussion about it at all.
Selanne nearly won the 1st Team All-Star in at Right Wing in 1997-98 despite missing 9 games. He also won Best Forward at the Olympics (again, despite missing games) and shattered the illusion that he needed Kariya in order to be successful.

1996-97 through 1998-99
1. Jagr - 221 GP, 126 G, 324 PTS
2. Selanne - 226 GP, 150 G, 302 PTS
3. Forsberg - 215 GP, 83 G, 274 PTS

So... yeah, there was deservedly discussion about it, especially with Selanne being unquestionably the best goal scorer in the league. I know Selanne is a dirty word on HOH, but he was Jagr's contemporary until his leg started killing his speed in 1999-2000.

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08-25-2010, 02:34 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Selanne nearly won the 1st Team All-Star in at Right Wing in 1997-98 despite missing 9 games. He also won Best Forward at the Olympics (again, despite missing games) and shattered the illusion that he needed Kariya in order to be successful.

1996-97 through 1998-99
1. Jagr - 221 GP, 126 G, 324 PTS
2. Selanne - 226 GP, 150 G, 302 PTS
3. Forsberg - 215 GP, 83 G, 274 PTS

So... yeah, there was deservedly discussion about it, especially with Selanne being unquestionably the best goal scorer in the league. I know Selanne is a dirty word on HOH, but he was Jagr's contemporary until his leg started killing his speed in 1999-2000.
Maybe my memory's faulty, but I don't remember Jagr really separating himself from the rest of the pack until 1999.

1997—Lemieux was still the best forward in the league while Jagr, Forsberg, and Lindros were all injured for a good chunk of the season. Either Selanne or Kariya had a good claim to being the second-best forward around. And then Lindros had that huge playoff run (at least until running into Lidstrom).

1998—Jagr wins the scoring title but Forsberg was right up there with him in points per game and was arguably the best forward in the NHL that season. And Selanne's leading the league in goals and was close in voting for the first-team all-star slot. Not totally clear that Jagr was the best forward.

1999—This was the truly jaw-dropping season for Jagr. Putting up 127 points alongside, who was it, Martin Straka and Jan Hrdina? No one else even came close.

2000—Jagr doesn't quite dominate the way he did the year before (his points-per-game average was great, but he still just barely squeaked by Bure for the Art Ross).

In retrospect, those three scoring titles in a row without Lemieux were amazing, and Jagr just brought it year after year while Forsberg/Lindros/Selanne/Kariya all waxed and waned. But at the time, as it was all unfolding, it wasn't surprising that there was a fair bit of debate about who the best forward was.

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08-25-2010, 03:14 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
First four seasons, 1994, Jaromir Jagr did not even reach 35 goals while Selanne and Mogilny each had a 76 goal season.These numbers would have generated the typical cries about Selanne and Mogilny being robbed of Hart Trophies,projecting 5 phantom Hart's for each before 2000 with threads about them being in the HOH top 100.

Jagr would have been considered a draft bust with comparables to Jason Arnott's first season being thrown around.
Well that was 1993. Those were great seasons by Selanne and Mogilny but even at that time Selanne was 5th and Mogilny 7th in scoring. There was never a time when I figured either was the best player in the game at any time in their careers. Jagr was younger than both of them then as well and on a steep incline.

Jagr was far from a bust in his first 4 years. He was a pivotal part of two Cup championships all while being a teenager. He had 57, 69, 94 and 99 point seasons in his first 4 years before his coming out party in 1995. I see a lot of progression, not a bust. I know I certainly wouldn't be writing on here declaring that back then.

I'll give Selanne 1993. That was his rookie year and I guess if you were to make a choice you'd want him on your team over Jagr that particular season, but that's where it ends for me. Selanne came down to earth the next two seasons and Jagr did the opposite, he soared. Once the two of them were in their primes and until the end of their careers I don't think there was ever a time where you can make a case that Selanne was better than Jagr. I sure thought Jagr had a clear separation from the rest of the NHL

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08-25-2010, 06:25 PM
  #136
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OMGZ Jagr couldn't score 35 goals when he was 18-21 he could only score 32 three times!!!! he sux!!!! what a bust!

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08-25-2010, 07:23 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
OMGZ Jagr couldn't score 35 goals when he was 18-21 he could only score 32 three times!!!! he sux!!!! what a bust!
And yet 32 actually is a fair bit less than 76.


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08-25-2010, 08:45 PM
  #138
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And yet 32 actually is a fair bit less than 76.

Well if you take a gander on the all-time goals list you'll see Jagr with 646 and Selanne with 606. Both players played exactly the same era and it looks as if Jagr is going to finish with more goals than Selanne and that wasn't even the best thing about Jagr either. Most observers would point to his playmaking as his best attribute. Rather telling and might shed more light on how questionable comparing Selanne to Jagr is.

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08-25-2010, 11:05 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Considering Forsberg is equal at best offensively, and miles behind defensively (like 99% of all players are when compared to Clarke), I have to say I am shocked that he has 19% of the votes.
For the offense part are you only looking at his NHL stuff or his overall impact at all stages?

I'll agree that Calrke was better defensively, although we might argue to what degree but have ino idea on how Clark and Forsberg can be considered eqaul offensively.

Forsberg beats hime except in the counting stats department when you look at it adjsuted for seasons. Add in playoffs and international play and Forsberg in Sweden then he leaps ahead even more.

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08-25-2010, 11:10 PM
  #140
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For the offense part are you only looking at his NHL stuff or his overall impact at all stages?

I'll agree that Calrke was better defensively, although we might argue to what degree but have ino idea on how Clark and Forsberg can be considered eqaul offensively.

Forsberg beats hime except in the counting stats department when you look at it adjsuted for seasons. Add in playoffs and international play and Forsberg in Sweden then he leaps ahead even more.
And defensively Clarke beats Forsberg by miles more than the slight offensive advantage he holds on a per game basis.

Defensively, Forsberg was merely "good". Clarke was among the best ever.

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08-26-2010, 01:12 AM
  #141
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And yet 32 actually is a fair bit less than 76.

...by a 22 and 23-year old, in a season where all top players inexplicably scored about 20% more than they otherwise would.

As a 22-year old, Jagr led the NHL in points and as a 23-year old he was 2nd to Lemieux with a goal total that adjusted goals indicate was roughly as impressive as 76 in the 1993 season... except he also had a ton of assists, too... there is no comparing him to Selanne and especially Mogilny.

If THN did indeed consider Selanne a worthy comparable in about 1999, they were dead wrong, plain and simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
For the offense part are you only looking at his NHL stuff or his overall impact at all stages?

I'll agree that Calrke was better defensively, although we might argue to what degree but have ino idea on how Clark and Forsberg can be considered eqaul offensively.

Forsberg beats hime except in the counting stats department when you look at it adjsuted for seasons. Add in playoffs and international play and Forsberg in Sweden then he leaps ahead even more.
I answered this already, I explained that both players ranked 2nd-4th in points and PPG over their best 7-year periods; there is no edge to speak of. Since Clarke is arguably the best defensive forward of all-time and Forsberg just another "good defensively" star forward, overall this is no contest.

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08-26-2010, 04:16 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I answered this already, I explained that both players ranked 2nd-4th in points and PPG over their best 7-year periods; there is no edge to speak of. Since Clarke is arguably the best defensive forward of all-time and Forsberg just another "good defensively" star forward, overall this is no contest.
Sorry for bringing semantics into the discussion, but IMO someone like Bob Gainey was a defensive forward; Clarke - if anyone - was a 2-way forward. At least for me it would be very hard to put someone who managed to score 119, 116, 104 pts (and 89 assists twice!) in a season in the same category with the Gaineys and Ramsays of this world.

Edit:
Maybe post '78 or so he was a genuine defensive forward, I don't know...


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08-26-2010, 10:12 AM
  #143
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Sorry for bringing semantics into the discussion, but IMO someone like Bob Gainey was a defensive forward; Clarke - if anyone - was a 2-way forward. At least for me it would be very hard to put someone who managed to score 119, 116, 104 pts (and 89 assists twice!) in a season in the same category with the Gaineys and Ramsays of this world.

Edit:
Maybe post '78 or so he was a genuine defensive forward, I don't know...
Yeah, I realize that from a semantics standpoint maybe that doesn't sound right. But he was matched against the opposition's best, yet allowed a staggeringly low number of even strength goals against - for at least two seasons it was much lower than Gainey or Ramsay ever allowed.

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08-26-2010, 10:48 AM
  #144
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Well if you take a gander on the all-time goals list you'll see Jagr with 646 and Selanne with 606. Both players played exactly the same era and it looks as if Jagr is going to finish with more goals than Selanne and that wasn't even the best thing about Jagr either. Most observers would point to his playmaking as his best attribute. Rather telling and might shed more light on how questionable comparing Selanne to Jagr is.
Oh I completely agree Jagr was in a different class than Selanne.

I was just pointing out why someone may have actually thought otherwise after Jagr's first 4 years and before he really rolling.

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08-26-2010, 11:56 AM
  #145
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I answered this already, I explained that both players ranked 2nd-4th in points and PPG over their best 7-year periods; there is no edge to speak of. Since Clarke is arguably the best defensive forward of all-time and Forsberg just another "good defensively" star forward, overall this is no contest.
Clarke was fantastic defensively and also much more durable than Forsberg which gives this poll to him. I do think Forsberg was better offensively though. The reason is that Forsberg faced better competition due to the european influx. If we exclude all non-Canadian players this is their top-10 finishes in points:

Clarke: 2,2,4,6,8,9,10
Forsberg: 1,1,2,3,4,6,10

Eliminating same finishes:

Clarke: 2,8,9
Forsberg: 1,1,3

Clear edge to Forsberg. Furthermore, Forsberg actually missed a lot of games in his top-10 finishes. If we instead, as you did, rank them on a per-game-basis (min. 30 games) we get the following:

Clarke: 3,4,5,6,6,10
Forsberg: 1,1,2,3,3,4,4,5,7,10

Eliminating same finishes:

Clarke: 6,6
Forsberg: 1,1,2,3,4,7

Huge edge to Forsberg.

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08-26-2010, 11:56 AM
  #146
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Oh I completely agree Jagr was in a different class than Selanne.

I was just pointing out why someone may have actually thought otherwise after Jagr's first 4 years and before he really rolling.
I dunno. People forget that Jagr started off on the 3rd line in his teenage seasons due to the presences of Lemieux, Stevens, Recchi, Mullen, Francis, Tocchet, and even Trottier. Even back then it looked pretty impressive that he would finish '91/92 at a PPG playing mostly on the 3rd line behind most/all of those guys. And after stepping up in the playoffs when he had to that year ('91/92) he could be denied top 6 minutes no longer, and took off from there (not 4 years into his career). Then he almost busted 100 points as a 20 year old in his 3rd season.

So yeah, if it took anyone 4 years to realize what Jagr would be up to, I submit that they either didn't watch or didn't understand what was going on at the time. Could someone still have been fooled into thinking Selanne would be "better" than Jagr after the '92/93 season? Sure. But that season only.

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08-26-2010, 11:57 AM
  #147
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Oh I completely agree Jagr was in a different class than Selanne.

I was just pointing out why someone may have actually thought otherwise after Jagr's first 4 years and before he really rolling.
you guys should try to stay on topic, this thread about Clarke versus Forsberg, not Jagr and Selanne. Thanks showing how smart you guys are by now comparing two completing different players.

Still Clarke is better than all these players mentioned.

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08-26-2010, 09:01 PM
  #148
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Still Clarke is better than all these players mentioned.
Jaromir Jagr?????

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08-26-2010, 09:26 PM
  #149
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No way is Clarke better than Jagr all-time, peak and intangibles would be over valued if that happens. Jagr blows him offensively and his playoff performances are more impressive. Clarke played first line minutes on a stacked team and he couldnt even lead his team in playoff scorings.

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08-26-2010, 09:53 PM
  #150
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Jagr blows him offensively and his playoff performances are more impressive.
And Clarke blows him defensively.

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