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Players who got too much credit for the success of others

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Old
08-22-2010, 10:31 PM
  #26
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Yeah I'm a big Messier supporter and I think 22nd is too low for him. As much as I love Messier I remember doing a poll a while back with Messier vs. Gretzky 1989-1999. Gretzky won, and should have so I wouldn't go that far in putting Messier ahead of him in that time frame but as crazy as it sounds I too think Mess can get underrated at times.

- Two Harts
- 6 Cups
- 7 trips to the final
- 1984, 1987, 1991 Canada Cup wins
- 2nd all-time in points
- 2nd all-time in playoff points
- captained two teams to the Cup
- 4 first team all-stars, one 2nd team all-stars

The guy brought it and while he was never shafted of a Selke he brought a two-way game and was superb on faceoffs. There aren't a lot of centers I have ahead of him other than the obvious ones. When it comes down to comparing Messier to Trottier or Clarke or Yzerman or even Sakic I rarely hesitate to pick Moose.
Messier's two-way game is vastly underrated around here. He was outright terrible defensively as a 40 year old who got way too many minutes on the Rangers. But in his prime, he was one of the most prolific penalty killers of all time (overpass's numbers show this), and he was always the guy matched against the best lines of opponents, whether he was the Edmonton Oilers, or matched against KLM in international play.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I would've agreed up until the last half of the 2006-07 season when Sakic was matching Thornton point-for-point in an attempt to get the Avalanche in the playoffs. That's all the evidence I need in order to be convinced that he could've done it all the same without Forsberg... though I maintain that Forsberg was the better player of the two when reasonably healthy.


And I find that Messier gets too little credit. 2nd All-Time in Points, didn't eat up Gordie Howe-type minutes, and completely elevated his game when he was the #1 center to the point that even without Art Ross Trophies, he was arguably as valuable as Mario Lemieux and maybe even more valuable than post-Oiler Gretzky. And where is he on HOH 100? Like... 22nd... well behind Lidstrom... who couldn't beat Pronger, Sakic, Forsberg, Thornton, St. Louis, or Theodore for a Hart nomination, let alone two outright wins.
I agree that Messier gets too little credit around here, but Lidstrom was probably the best player in the entire league over a 10 year period. We all know that defensemen on stacked teams are not going to sniff the Hart trophy (see Doug Harvey).

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Old
08-23-2010, 06:36 AM
  #27
ES
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I recall that Mario and Jagr played quite a lot in different lines during 1995-96 and 1996-97. Basically they played PP together, but only that. Jagr was playing with Francis as a center

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Old
08-23-2010, 06:57 AM
  #28
Psycho Papa Joe
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
On that same team, it's worth noting that Mike Bossy kept producing no matter who he played with (and that 'checkers' Sutter and Tonelli turned into 100-point guys on his line) but that Trottier and Gilles fell of the face of the earth when removed from Bossy.
On the other hand, Trots was a 90+ pt rookie without Bossy and was also the higher point producer for a number of years he was with Bossy.

Trots did lose some of his offensive flair as he aged, but IMO that was due more to age and injuries, rather than a being a Bossy leach.


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 08-23-2010 at 12:56 PM.
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Old
08-23-2010, 10:02 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
On the other hand, Trots was a 90+ pt rookie without Bossy and was also the higher point producer for a number of he was with Bossy.

Trots did lose some of his offensive flair as he aged, but IMO that was due more to age and injuries, rather than a being a Bossy leach.
Yeah I don't think anyone would mistake him for leaching off of Bossy. In every game I've seen of them, it's usually Trottier doing all the work, offensively and defensively, and Bossy seemingly just standing around waiting to take shots. Yes he found the back of the net as well as anyone, but I'm not going to lie overall what I've seen from them both I'd say Trottier was quite clearly the better, and also more skilled player IMO.

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Old
08-23-2010, 10:28 AM
  #30
begbeee
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Sedin is product of Sedin

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Old
08-23-2010, 12:50 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Sedin is product of Sedin
No way! If anything it is the other way around.

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Old
08-23-2010, 09:41 PM
  #32
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The few who jump out to me:

Dale Hawerchuk - The Jets were on a whole other level when he was on the ice. A shame he was stuck in the same division as Gretzky and never got the recognition.

Pat Lafontaine - Along with Hawerchuk, he was the main reason Mogilny had the goal scoring season he did in 92-93.

Tomas Holmstrom - The single biggest factor to the Wings PP production for years. He particularly helps out assist numbers on shots from the point. The same could be said to a much lesser degree of Ryan Smith.

Bobby Smith - The passer on the North Stars early in his career boosting the likes of Broten, Ciccarelli and then later comes back in 86 with the Habs and helps out Naslund, Kjell Dahlin and Richer. Underrated IMO.

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