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Old
08-25-2010, 12:59 PM
  #151
EazyB97
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Originally Posted by ElectricTicker View Post
You're probably overstating the move-ability of most of that group. Players making the money Phaneuf, Komisarek and Beauchemin are making may be useful to very useful NHL defensemen but you need a trade partner with both the cap space (and return players freeing cap space) to take on those contracts. Being that the Leafs outbid the rest of the NHL on both Komisarek and Beauchemin and the less than stellar years both had, I'd think neither one would return much in quality assets.
I believe Komi said he had other offers for more money from other teams when he signed here.


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Originally Posted by Alec Brownscombe
Update: Komisarek turned down more money to go to T.O.
http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2009/0...ign-komisarek/

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Old
08-25-2010, 01:29 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
I believe Komi said he had other offers for more money from other teams when he signed here.
It doesn't say "better contracts" after all. Burke gave Komisarek some NMC/NTC contract terms to his deal. Burke in all likelihood outbid in these movement terms of the contract. Are you seriously suggesting that Komisarek came to Toronto for a worse deal than he would have received elsewhere?

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08-25-2010, 01:37 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by ElectricTicker View Post
It doesn't say "better contracts" after all. Burke gave Komisarek some NMC/NTC contract terms to his deal. Burke in all likelihood outbid in these movement terms of the contract. Are you seriously suggesting that Komisarek came to Toronto for a worse deal than he would have received elsewhere?
Are there any players with contracts similar to his that have no conditions on them? I'd bet there aren't, certainly not many.

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08-25-2010, 01:37 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by ElectricTicker View Post
It doesn't say "better contracts" after all. Burke gave Komisarek some NMC/NTC contract terms to his deal. Burke in all likelihood outbid in these movement terms of the contract. Are you seriously suggesting that Komisarek came to Toronto for a worse deal than he would have received elsewhere?
Absoloutely, I believe he has said as much and my quote seems to suggest it. We know it's happened in the past with Kubina as well.

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08-25-2010, 01:48 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Absoloutely, I believe he has said as much and my quote seems to suggest it. We know it's happened in the past with Kubina as well.
Do you have a quote where it's confirmed that Komisarek was offered NTC/NMC's by other teams?

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08-25-2010, 01:51 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by ElectricTicker View Post
Do you have a quote where it's confirmed that Komisarek was offered NTC/NMC's by other teams?
Speculation, just have quotes that he was offered more money and that his NTC is partial each and every year with him picking 12 teams he'll accept a trade to. Usually NTC's come out after signing, we didn't hear about Komi's right away.

"Outbid" usually refers to money though. The Leafs clearly offered him the best mixture of money, security and team, but it doesn't appear they were the highest bidders which was the claim I disputed.

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08-25-2010, 02:28 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Speculation, just have quotes that he was offered more money and that his NTC is partial each and every year with him picking 12 teams he'll accept a trade to. Usually NTC's come out after signing, we didn't hear about Komi's right away.

"Outbid" usually refers to money though. The Leafs clearly offered him the best mixture of money, security and team, but it doesn't appear they were the highest bidders which was the claim I disputed.
Outbid does usually refer to more money but it could also mean more term to get more money.

Leafs offered Komisarek a 5 year front loaded deal paying him $6 mil this season for a total of $22.5 mil and Cap hit average of $4.5 mil.

If another team offered him a 7 year deal at $3.5 mil per = $24.5 mil.

That qualifies as turned down more money..

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08-25-2010, 02:42 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Speculation, just have quotes that he was offered more money and that his NTC is partial each and every year with him picking 12 teams he'll accept a trade to. Usually NTC's come out after signing, we didn't hear about Komi's right away.

"Outbid" usually refers to money though. The Leafs clearly offered him the best mixture of money, security and team, but it doesn't appear they were the highest bidders which was the claim I disputed.
Are you trying to define what I meant? This is just another example of the flimsiest, thinnest wedge being driven into an incidental point of a much greater statement. Long forgotten/ignored is the original point that Komisarek's and Beauchemin's contract would be horribly difficult to move. If you think teams are lining to acquire these players you're sadly mistaken. The Leafs won the competition for Komisarek last summer. There is that better? Now maybe you can address the move-ability of his contract.

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08-25-2010, 02:46 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Outbid does usually refer to more money but it could also mean more term to get more money.

Leafs offered Komisarek a 5 year front loaded deal paying him $6 mil this season for a total of $22.5 mil and Cap hit average of $4.5 mil.

If another team offered him a 7 year deal at $3.5 mil per = $24.5 mil.

That qualifies as turned down more money..
That'd just be poor reporting then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric Ticker
Are you trying to define what I meant? This is just another example of the flimsiest, thinnest wedge being driven into an incidental point of a much greater statement. Long forgotten/ignored is the original point that Komisarek's and Beauchemin's contract would be horribly difficult to move. If you think teams are lining to acquire these players you're sadly mistaken. The Leafs won the competition for Komisarek last summer. There is that better? Now maybe you can address the move-ability of his contract.
No, it's pretty basic. You claimed they outbid everyone it doesn't look like the case. It appears you were trying to use that as a point, basically saying the Leafs paid more than anyone else then, so nobody would want them at these numbers.

As for moveability. I don't see Komisarek fetching much, too many questions with his injuries. I see Beauchemin being in demand, but not returning a top-level player. He's a cheap d-man given his ability to handle big minutes effectively.

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08-25-2010, 02:47 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricTicker View Post
Are you trying to define what I meant? This is just another example of the flimsiest, thinnest wedge being driven into an incidental point of a much greater statement. Long forgotten/ignored is the original point that Komisarek's and Beauchemin's contract would be horribly difficult to move. If you think teams are lining to acquire these players you're sadly mistaken. The Leafs won the competition for Komisarek last summer. There is that better? Now maybe you can address the move-ability of his contract.
Beauchemin's contract would be easy to move if we didn't care about the return. Heck we could probably even get a half decent return without trying. As for Komisarek he might be a bit more difficult to move because of injury concerns, but why would we want to move him anyway?

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08-25-2010, 11:27 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Platapie View Post
Phaneuf, Komi, Beauch, Bozak, Kessel are all legitimate assets. It's fair to take Kessel out of the equation because we would have had a 2nd overall pick instead of him.

Explain to me, aside from Kessel, how the above were poor asset management in any way shape or form. They could EASILY be flipped for useful assets, and are strong additions (except for perhaps Bozak and Beauch who are decent pieces), to any team, no matter the caliber.
Just look at the Versteeg trade (3 for 1) or the Kubina trade (for Exelby?)... perhaps the Antropov trade - horrible asset management.

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08-25-2010, 11:42 PM
  #162
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08-26-2010, 06:58 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
That'd just be poor reporting then.

As for moveability. I don't see Komisarek fetching much, too many questions with his injuries. I see Beauchemin being in demand, but not returning a top-level player. He's a cheap d-man given his ability to handle big minutes effectively.
I think you're both nuts/falling into the what have you done for me lately trap. Komisarek is a very hard to play against D-man, top pairing on pretty much any team in the league when on his game and all around prototypical "this is what I want when I draft a defender".

He's arguably the third most talented player on our squad behind Phaneuf and Kessel, and he had multiple offers. IIRC, Montreal even offered him more than we ended up paying him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie79
Just look at the Versteeg trade (3 for 1) or the Kubina trade (for Exelby?)... perhaps the Antropov trade - horrible asset management.
Quantity != quality. Versteeg will be an interesting player to watch this year. Burke has shown an excellent eye in the past for buying low, and the assets we gave up for Versteeg were unimportant. Kubina was meh for us-- I never really understood the fascination. Antropov was one of the few talented forwards we've had in a long time but I wasn't comfortable with the money he was asking for when he was let go, and while he puts up decent numbers, I still wouldn't be comfortable giving him the coin he's going to command in the future.

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08-26-2010, 07:41 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Platapie View Post
I think you're both nuts/falling into the what have you done for me lately trap. Komisarek is a very hard to play against D-man, top pairing on pretty much any team in the league when on his game and all around prototypical "this is what I want when I draft a defender".

He's arguably the third most talented player on our squad behind Phaneuf and Kessel, and he had multiple offers. IIRC, Montreal even offered him more than we ended up paying him.



Quantity != quality. Versteeg will be an interesting player to watch this year. Burke has shown an excellent eye in the past for buying low, and the assets we gave up for Versteeg were unimportant. Kubina was meh for us-- I never really understood the fascination. Antropov was one of the few talented forwards we've had in a long time but I wasn't comfortable with the money he was asking for when he was let go, and while he puts up decent numbers, I still wouldn't be comfortable giving him the coin he's going to command in the future.
It's not that Kessel or Versteeg are "bad" players ... They're great players. It's what Burke gave up to acquire these players. Yes Kubina & Antro were expensive , potnetially needed to go - but again, it's what Burke aquired for them - Exelby? and picks? It honestly brings his judgement into question... I also think Burke should stop blowing hot air to the press. Sure if you have something factual , say it. But some statements need not apply.

I mean - Burke's most successful trades (Calgary/Anaheim) - came out of nowhere, there was no boasting in the press, nothing. Not even the players were aware (except maybe Stajan who had been rumoured all season).

Burke needs to remember that there are 29 other GMs that are just as smart as he is - hence the types of trades he's had to make, and the types of UFAs he's been unable to sign.

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08-26-2010, 07:46 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
As for moveability. I don't see Komisarek fetching much, too many questions with his injuries. I see Beauchemin being in demand, but not returning a top-level player. He's a cheap d-man given his ability to handle big minutes effectively.
So after all, you agree with what I originally said. What a waste of time.

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08-26-2010, 09:10 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
That'd just be poor reporting then.
How so ?

7 years at $3.5 mil = $24.5 mil and 5 years at $4.5 mil = $22.5 mil.

If a player or agent or reporter claims Komisarek left more money offered on the Table by taking Leafs deal then its a true fact.

By my example he left $2 mil extra out there and could have had that additional money guaranteed by taking the higher amount that was offered.

We don't have any evidence of those other offers only the released statement (if that is even true) that there was more money offered and we know there are two parts to any contract offer $Amount$ and Term.

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08-26-2010, 09:38 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by ElectricTicker View Post
So after all, you agree with what I originally said. What a waste of time.
No, I disagreed that we were the highest bidder on Komisarek and that neither would return much. Beauchemin should get a decent return, he just won't return a top level player (why would anyone expect him to? He should fetch a quality asset, just not some elite talent.
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
How so ?

7 years at $3.5 mil = $24.5 mil and 5 years at $4.5 mil = $22.5 mil.

If a player or agent or reporter claims Komisarek left more money offered on the Table by taking Leafs deal then its a true fact.

By my example he left $2 mil extra out there and could have had that additional money guaranteed by taking the higher amount that was offered.

We don't have any evidence of those other offers only the released statement (if that is even true) that there was more money offered and we know there are two parts to any contract offer $Amount$ and Term.
Because these reporters generally go by cap hit rather than overall cash. "More money" usually means that they're getting more on average than their current deal. Plus every deal I could find on Komisarek was for 5 years.

So it'd be poor reporting top say Komisarek left more money on the table to sign in TO when it was over more term and ate into his future earnings. They'll usually say Komisarek was offered a longer deal at a lower cap hit, if that's the case.


Last edited by EazyB97: 08-26-2010 at 09:57 AM.
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