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Elias to Edmonton

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Old
08-23-2010, 09:01 AM
  #76
Petro Points
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Pass x 3

NJ passes on the return
EDM passes on the contract
Elias passes on the team

OT but Penner should not be our 1st line center unless he is playing from blueline - blueline. Centers are suppose to be the first forward back which will stop Penner from doing what he does best (strong play along the boards and in front of the net). He could take the faceoffs though.

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08-23-2010, 09:05 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
... and every rebuild needs quality vets... rebuild does not mean filling a team with youngsters.
Sort of.

You're correct in saying that veterans are an important part of any rebuilding process. The Red Wings certainly did this in the 80's when they signed players like Brad Park to hold the fort while their draft choices developed. The fans need somebody to watch and cheer for while the young players grow into their roles. A team is walking a fine line when it does this, however. When do they stop signing free agents and allow young players to take over? That's never an easy question to answer.

Depending on the organization and the philosophy of ownership and management, rebuilds may actually "mean filling a team with youngsters." The qualifier here is that rebuilds only work if the youngsters are ready to take their places on the big league roster. They can only do this once they have had a chance to learn, grow and develop in the minor leagues. This is why the Adirondack Red Wings were so important to the Detroit Red Wings in the 80's and 90's. It's a rare player who can move into the big leagues in their first year of professional hockey.

Trading for a player like Elias during a rebuild is not necessarily a bad thing. It all depends on what the team pays for him and whether or not there's a younger player ready to play in the spot he would be taking in the lineup.

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Old
08-23-2010, 09:38 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by JimEIV View Post
That would be a tough pill to swallow...

1st in 2010
1st in 2011
Bergfors
Oduya
Cormier
- 2/3 roster players
7+M cap hit/100M salary


All for Kovalchuk? Seriously???


The options are becoming uglier and uglier by the day for this very incomplete player.
We still got a 1st round value in this previous draft with Jon Merrill. Losing another 1st will hurt, but it's worth it. There's very little chance we get a true superstar at our usual draft position. Losing Bergfors hurts, but we have insane depth at wing. Oduya was awful this past season, and ridding ourselves of his 3.5 cap hit actually helped. Cormier was never going to be a Devil after his antics in juniors.

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Old
08-23-2010, 09:40 AM
  #79
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Why would the Devils want to give up Elias?

Better yet, why would the Oilers want to give up Cogliano in order to get Elias?

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08-23-2010, 09:46 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Belak Attack View Post
I understand that, but the Oil (not offense) are not gunning for the playoffs, and will more than likely not be in the playoffs. There would be no reason to trade for Elias. Nor would their be any reason for the Devils to trade Elias, as they're trying for the cup. He's the kind of person you want on a playoff team.
I think the better analogy is that if we are in the playoff race coming mid season, then we make the playoffs. If we fail miserably then we tank. It's pretty much 6th or higher or nothing. Since it's very unlikely we go 6th or higher, then we prefer last in the west. Elias is a good player and I wouldn't mind him, but that doesn't help a rebuilding team.

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08-23-2010, 09:49 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Ovechking View Post
Why would the Devils want to give up Elias?

Better yet, why would the Oilers want to give up Cogliano in order to get Elias?
EDM will give up Cogliano because we will be adding Eberle, Hall and possibly Omark and Pajaarvi on the roster. That is way too many sub 190lbs forwards with Gagner and Brule already there.

As for getting Elias.. I dont know.. Maybe we need more competition for a top 6 LW spot on team. Hall, Penner, Pajaarvi and Omark arent enough

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08-23-2010, 09:51 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Evil Oilers View Post
I think the better analogy is that if we are in the playoff race coming mid season, then we make the playoffs. If we fail miserably then we tank. It's pretty much 6th or higher or nothing. Since it's very unlikely we go 6th or higher, then we prefer last in the west. Elias is a good player and I wouldn't mind him, but that doesn't help a rebuilding team.
we can always send him to Chad Moreau's conditioning camp mid season.. Thats a ticket to LTIR for him!

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08-23-2010, 09:51 AM
  #83
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Elias to Edmonton
Eklund to Hell

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08-23-2010, 09:56 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by PenzOil View Post
EDM will give up Cogliano because we will be adding Eberle, Hall and possibly Omark and Pajaarvi on the roster. That is way too many sub 190lbs forwards with Gagner and Brule already there.

As for getting Elias.. I dont know.. Maybe we need more competition for a top 6 LW spot on team. Hall, Penner, Pajaarvi and Omark arent enough
Cogliano loves playing here, though. He could be great for our locker room.


Elias can play RW too, though.

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08-23-2010, 10:02 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Iceman78 View Post
We still got a 1st round value in this previous draft with Jon Merrill. Losing another 1st will hurt, but it's worth it. There's very little chance we get a true superstar at our usual draft position. Losing Bergfors hurts, but we have insane depth at wing. Oduya was awful this past season, and ridding ourselves of his 3.5 cap hit actually helped. Cormier was never going to be a Devil after his antics in juniors.
I don't see it as we gave up this guy or that guy, it is just the shear number of assets given up.

3 first rounders, a second round pick, a top 4 defensemen and two or three other unknown roster players from our existing lineup -- That is a tremendous amount to give up.

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08-23-2010, 10:20 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEIV View Post
I don't see it as we gave up this guy or that guy, it is just the shear number of assets given up.

3 first rounders, a second round pick, a top 4 defensemen and two or three other unknown roster players from our existing lineup -- That is a tremendous amount to give up.
Bergfors - This is the worst asset we lost, you got to give to get.

Cormier - Let's see how he recovers from the current process, he may never be the same player he was. He certainly doesn't have the hockey sense to be a 2nd line center without his edge.

Oduya - A free agent signing who was clearly overpaid based on his years under Sutter. He was expendable with Greene coming out of nowhere to replace him.

1st round pick - One in which we still got a 1st round talent.

Rolston - He is hurting our team more then helping, Kovalchuk or no Kovalchuk he should go.

Salvador - He is useless with Tallinder and Volchenkov coming in.

1st - A late first no doubt.

7 million cap space - To sign one of the most explosive dynamic players of this generation.

There are only so many assets you can possibly have. That is where asset management comes in. You can't continue to stockpile prospects to create a super team. It only works in video games.


Last edited by Jason MacIsaac: 08-23-2010 at 10:28 AM.
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08-23-2010, 10:48 AM
  #87
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I always saw Elias as the top choice to be trade bait for making room. He wasn't my first though. Although this would be the wisest move for Lou - only after getting rejected by Rolston. Move one big cap hit and not have to scramble to plug holes possibly laying us below contention. We are looking at the future right now and it is exciting because before Ilya we really didn't know how good this team really could be with our prospects. Lou has masterminded the team building concept, as he strategically timed his contracts. MOst likely with Parise and Kovy leading the wave as Marty, Langs and White head off into the sunset. With the onset of some prospects and cap space, Lou may be setting some kind of record of success.

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08-23-2010, 10:48 AM
  #88
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Elias NTC.

Nobody waives them to go to Edm.

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08-23-2010, 10:51 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by TOMapleLaughs View Post
Elias NTC.

Nobody waives them to go to Edm.
NMC*

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Old
08-23-2010, 11:00 AM
  #90
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Other NMC: Arnott. Wouldn't it have been easier to sign Kovy if they hadn't traded for him?

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08-23-2010, 11:04 AM
  #91
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yes, but NJD NEEDED a 2nd line C

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08-23-2010, 11:06 AM
  #92
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They may have to move Elias. Rolston will be very, very hard to move (and doesn't he have a NMC too?). Nobody wants Salvador. The only easily tradeable pieces are ones that NJ would be dumb to trade, like Zajac, Elias, and Brodeur. Elias is tradeable from a NJ perspective, if they are upgrading to Kovalchuk, because it is just that, an upgrade.

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08-23-2010, 11:08 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
They may have to move Elias. Rolston will be very, very hard to move (and doesn't he have a NMC too?). Nobody wants Salvador. The only easily tradeable pieces are ones that NJ would be dumb to trade, like Zajac, Elias, and Brodeur. Elias is tradeable from a NJ perspective, if they are upgrading to Kovalchuk, because it is just that, an upgrade.
A lot of teams would love to have Salvador, he would go for a 4th round pick in a second.

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08-23-2010, 11:11 AM
  #94
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Eklund is reporting that the oil are interested in Elias. Also Richard Cloutier made a post on it to . he said he could see cogs and a 2nd round pick for Elias. they say they are trying to trade him to make room for kovy.. does anyone see this happening
This is typical innuendo from him - it's non-committal and easily defended to claim any team is "interested" in another player. That does not mean that: 1) the player is available; or 2) the team owning that player wants anything from the interested team; or 3) that the two teams have had any trade discussions beyond perhaps an inquiry from the "interested" team. There are 29 teams "interested" in Crosby, Ovechkin, the Sedins, etc. - that doesn't translate that any of them can be had.

It's also a typical example of him fabricating theories in a narrow-minded way, rather than recognizing or understanding each team's complete situation. It's common knowledge by everyone that the Devils will have cap issues when they sign Kovalchuk - but it's also commonly understood by people familiar with NJ (except by Eklund, apparently) that the reason the Devils added Kovalchuk in the first place was to add offense beyond Parise and Elias. Why would they trade one of their 3 best goal scorers in Elias (not to mention someone who is as entrenched in the community as he is)? Answer: they won't.

It's far more likely that Lamoriello will solve his cap issues by shedding a more expendable player (i.e. Zubrus, Salvador, etc.) that won't weaken the offense.

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Old
08-23-2010, 11:17 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Sort of.

You're correct in saying that veterans are an important part of any rebuilding process. The Red Wings certainly did this in the 80's when they signed players like Brad Park to hold the fort while their draft choices developed. The fans need somebody to watch and cheer for while the young players grow into their roles. A team is walking a fine line when it does this, however. When do they stop signing free agents and allow young players to take over? That's never an easy question to answer.

Depending on the organization and the philosophy of ownership and management, rebuilds may actually "mean filling a team with youngsters." The qualifier here is that rebuilds only work if the youngsters are ready to take their places on the big league roster. They can only do this once they have had a chance to learn, grow and develop in the minor leagues. This is why the Adirondack Red Wings were so important to the Detroit Red Wings in the 80's and 90's. It's a rare player who can move into the big leagues in their first year of professional hockey.

Trading for a player like Elias during a rebuild is not necessarily a bad thing. It all depends on what the team pays for him and whether or not there's a younger player ready to play in the spot he would be taking in the lineup.
I agree with a lot of this....

Elias is a great player, proven winner and, if acquired, would provide a source of much needed veteran leadership to a team over-run with youngsters, which shouldn't be discounted.

That said, Tamby has expressed a desire to go with a "youth movement" and I'm dubious as to whether bringing in an Elias, with 3 years and 18 million left on his contract helps or hurts that philosophy. Veteran leaders who could be had a lot cheaper, and who would command a less significant spot on the roster are more readily available, and maybe better suited to Edmonton's agenda. We need to leave room for the kids up there.

If we were expecting to win this year it would be a different story, but as we're in year 1 of what will probably be a 3 to 5 year process, while the Devil's have more expendable bodies to part with to shed salary, I'm pretty convinced that this would be the wrong move for both squads.


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08-23-2010, 11:27 AM
  #96
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Bergfors - This is the worst asset we lost, you got to give to get.

Cormier - Let's see how he recovers from the current process, he may never be the same player he was. He certainly doesn't have the hockey sense to be a 2nd line center without his edge.

Oduya - A free agent signing who was clearly overpaid based on his years under Sutter. He was expendable with Greene coming out of nowhere to replace him.

1st round pick - One in which we still got a 1st round talent.

Rolston - He is hurting our team more then helping, Kovalchuk or no Kovalchuk he should go.

Salvador - He is useless with Tallinder and Volchenkov coming in.

1st - A late first no doubt.

7 million cap space - To sign one of the most explosive dynamic players of this generation.

There are only so many assets you can possibly have. That is where asset management comes in. You can't continue to stockpile prospects to create a super team. It only works in video games.
Ray Shero must play a lot of Xbox...

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08-23-2010, 11:46 AM
  #97
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I can see Rolston + 1st round pick to Edmonton versus a average prospect. The Oilers would gain a "ok" veteran to solidify their bottom 6 and add another 1st round pick to a team who's rebuilding. Even if the pick won't be in the top 20 (IMO), you can still manage to draft a solid player or use it as trade bait to either trade down or use it for another deal during the year.

If my team was in a rebuilding mode, I'd try to get as many 1st round picks as possible and if a team is willing to "give" you a 1st just to free up cap space... I'd do it A.S.A.P. Someone like Brian Burke should be all over this as well since he was looking for picks in this years draft cause of the Kessel deal and it gives him a solid forward to help out his mediocre offense. Rolston's contract is overpriced, yes, but he can still score 20 goals per year and if you can land a 20 goal scorer AND a 1st round pick for peanuts... you have to do it, no ?

The saga continues
In actually looking at that contract a late 1st might not be enough to convince the Oilers to bite on that deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
Speaking a tad more rationally and as an Oilers fan (I do not understand why people think Hall - a winger - can jump into a 1st line center position), there has been talk of trying Penner out as a center. He was over 50% on the draw last year, he would solve the Oilers size issues down the middle, and he certainly is defensively responsible. Trading Cogliano (another center - sort of) fits with the idea of moving Penner to center as it opens a space on wing and down the middle.

Elias Penner Hemsky

This would give the Oilers something they have not had in a very long time, a real first line. Rebuild or not, having a line like this would take pressure off the kids, and every rebuild needs quality vets... rebuild does not mean filling a team with youngsters.

Elias - Penner - Hemsky
Hall - Horcoff - Brule
Jones - Gagner - Eberle/Omark/Paarjarvi
JFJ - Fraser - Stortini

MacIntyre and one of Eberle/Omark/Paajarvi - the odd 'kid' out is on the farm and likely the first call up.

A real first line; a good second line with the Wunder-prospect on it; Penner and Horcoff as #1 and #2 down the middle is a good sized one-two punch (with actual face off experience and ability) - people seemingly forget that Horcoff is in the 210 lbs range; a new kid line as the third with sheltered minutes; and a fourth line to do what a fourth line does.

All in all, I think Elias makes some sense.
Elias doesn't make sense unless we are thinking that we can make a cup run in the next 3 seasons without adding another top flight prospect at next June's draft.

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08-23-2010, 12:17 PM
  #98
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I understand that, but the Oil (not offense) are not gunning for the playoffs, and will more than likely not be in the playoffs. There would be no reason to trade for Elias. Nor would their be any reason for the Devils to trade Elias, as they're trying for the cup. He's the kind of person you want on a playoff team.
wouldn't trading for Elias help fight for a playoff spot? and I don't care with a healthy team we can fight for a spot without Elias. You do realize we set the record for man games lost....use your head! it's there for a reason...or is it?

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08-23-2010, 12:24 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Ementy View Post
wouldn't trading for Elias help fight for a playoff spot? and I don't care with a healthy team we can fight for a spot without Elias. You do realize we set the record for man games lost....use your head! it's there for a reason...or is it?
So would it be better for us to barely miss or make the playoffs or land another elite talent at next years draft? Are we going to do this rebuild right or just keep toiling in mediocrity? As far as I'm concerned the last thing that we need right now is a LW unless he is an elite player and we decide that we're going to try and make a go of it now. If we're doing that we may as well go after Kovalchuk too.

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08-23-2010, 12:30 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by spicolaphats View Post
I agree with a lot of this....

Elias is a great player, proven winner and, if acquired, would provide a source of much needed veteran leadership to a team over-run with youngsters, which shouldn't be discounted.

That said, Tamby has expressed a desire to go with a "youth movement" and I'm dubious as to whether bringing in an Elias, with 3 years and 18 million left on his contract helps or hurts that philosophy. Veteran leaders who could be had a lot cheaper, and who would command a less significant spot on the roster are more readily available, and maybe better suited to Edmonton's agenda. We need to leave room for the kids up there.

If we were expecting to win this year it would be a different story, but as we're in year 1 of what will probably be a 3 to 5 year process, while the Devil's have more expendable bodies to part with to shed salary, I'm pretty convinced that this would be the wrong move for both squads.
I agree with the bolded part. Elias would be a great mentor to the young oilers. He's only 34 and his salary is only $5M for the next 3 years (cap hit is higher but who cares)

There are much worse ways to spend $5MM in the NHL.

I'm not convinced Elias will be moved though. He's a very valuable player to the Devils and, as you said, a proven performer in both the regular season and especially the playoffs.

He's a player who you don't have to coach, don't need to motivate, won't whine, will work hard in all zones, is responsible on the ice no matter the game situation and a proven winner. I fail to see how that player doesn't FIT ANY TEAM, REGARDLESS OF THE STATE OF THE REBUILD.

Again. I don't think NJ trades him and if they do, I really think there's no fit with the Oilers.

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