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Putting Carter into Perspective

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08-23-2010, 08:58 AM
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FlyersCup08
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Putting Carter into Perspective

I was thinking a lot about how hard it would/will be to trade Carter for (probably) a goalie at some point, because we all know (for the most part) that Leights/Boosh just aren't going to cut it.

The biggest argument against trading Carter is that he's been a 40 goal scorer and our offense needs him. Even though, right now, we have an overflow of centers (Richie, Briere, Giroux, Carter), we still want to keep 4 centers for the top 9, forcing us to put one of them on the wing.

Well I was thinking about another team that would be in our exact situation if we made a Carter trade with them: Pitt.

Carter for Fleury.

They would then have Crosby, Malkin, Staal, and Carter for their top 9, the same thing as we have now, and they would have no goalie, just like the current Flyers team does. The Flyers, on the other hand, would have a solid goalie (don't start an argument if you think Fleury sucks, this is just to make a case for trading Carter) and now 3 centers for the top 9. Does Pitt do this deal? NO WAY.

Why? Because who in their right mind would want an overflow of centers at the expense of a goalie? So since Pitt wouldn't do this, why should the Flyers be satisfied with their situation? We need to be proactive and shop Carter sooner rather than later for a legit No.1 goalie.

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08-23-2010, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyersCup08 View Post
I was thinking a lot about how hard it would/will be to trade Carter for (probably) a goalie at some point, because we all know (for the most part) that Leights/Boosh just aren't going to cut it.

The biggest argument against trading Carter is that he's been a 40 goal scorer and our offense needs him. Even though, right now, we have an overflow of centers (Richie, Briere, Giroux, Carter), we still want to keep 4 centers for the top 9, forcing us to put one of them on the wing.

Well I was thinking about another team that would be in our exact situation if we made a Carter trade with them: Pitt.

Carter for Fleury.

They would then have Crosby, Malkin, Staal, and Carter for their top 9, the same thing as we have now, and they would have no goalie, just like the current Flyers team does. The Flyers, on the other hand, would have a solid goalie (don't start an argument if you think Fleury sucks, this is just to make a case for trading Carter) and now 3 centers for the top 9. Does Pitt do this deal? NO WAY.

Why? Because who in their right mind would want an overflow of centers at the expense of a goalie? So since Pitt wouldn't do this, why should the Flyers be satisfied with their situation? We need to be proactive and shop Carter sooner rather than later for a legit No.1 goalie.


Briere is not a center IMHO. He can't play that role efficiently and I wouldn't pencil him there at all if I can help it. Briere is a winger who can play Center.

Giroux is a winger who can play center also, but he is at least better at it then Briere is.

This "overflow" of centers is the biggest joke ever. So many Flyers fans are concerned with our "center depth" when they should be concerned with our prospect pool. We have no centers coming up. We have nothing coming up in fact. Why trade youth when we have nothing coming up? If we had an NHL ready Center ready, then yeah, I'd consider moving Carter, but as it stands, I see our centers as Richards, Carter, Giroux and Betts.

Oh, and Homer would never trade Carter for a goalie. That's straight stupid. There is no goalie available who is WORTH it.

I can tell you all right now who is next if we need cap space: Hartnell, Carle, Coburn or Meszaros.

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08-23-2010, 09:06 AM
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We all think Briere is better suited for the wing, but he proved in the playoffs that he needs to play center.


Carter also needs to play center as well.

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08-23-2010, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
We all think Briere is better suited for the wing, but he proved in the playoffs that he needs to play center.


Carter also needs to play center as well.
I disagree. If anything, Briere proved he is a monster in the playoffs. Not that he is an awesome center.

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08-23-2010, 09:11 AM
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If things don't go well with Leighton and Boosh in net it would not surprise me to see Carter dealt for a goalie, but I am not sure what we would get in return for him but I'm pretty sure he would not be traded to Pittsburgh for MAF.

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08-23-2010, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
If things don't go well with Leighton and Boosh in net it would not surprise me to see Carter dealt for a goalie, but I am not sure what we would get in return for him but I'm pretty sure he would not be traded to Pittsburgh for MAF.
If Leighton/Boosh can't cut it, the Flyers will absolutely NOT trade Carter to patch things up. As bas a GM as Homer is, at least he can see how dumb that is.

He will do what he has done more then once already, waiver wire some vet backup or trade for a vet backup and throw slop in there until something fits.

It wouldnt take Carter to get Schnieder or some vet guy elsewhere.

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08-23-2010, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I disagree. If anything, Briere proved he is a monster in the playoffs. Not that he is an awesome center.
We already knew he was a monster in the playoffs, as long as one wasn't too busy tearing the guy apart because of his salary.

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08-23-2010, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post

Briere is not a center IMHO. He can't play that role efficiently and I wouldn't pencil him there at all if I can help it. Briere is a winger who can play Center.
Giroux and the Flyers played their best hockey during the playoffs with Briere at center, he is a center who does not play as well on the wing.

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Giroux is a winger who can play center also, but he is at least better at it then Briere is.
Giroux was drafted as a RW but even during his time with the Ramparts he spent time at center. Last year I thought the same thing, he should be wing on a scoring line and it would benefit the team. After seeing his total work at center versus RW he is better at center.

Why are both these players better at center over Carter you may ask? Both can carry the puck and make other players around them better. They create space by handling the puck and under pressure can dish the puck to the open man, they also can gain the blueline with possession.

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This "overflow" of centers is the biggest joke ever. So many Flyers fans are concerned with our "center depth" when they should be concerned with our prospect pool. We have no centers coming up. We have nothing coming up in fact. Why trade youth when we have nothing coming up? If we had an NHL ready Center ready, then yeah, I'd consider moving Carter, but as it stands, I see our centers as Richards, Carter, Giroux and Betts.
Bottom line....you have depth at center but lack of depth in net and no starting #1 goalie. Bottom line is they had a chance to move Carter during the summer but deemed him unmoveable, mistake IMO but Homer will either reap the rewards or pay for it later, the gambling man at work.

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Oh, and Homer would never trade Carter for a goalie. That's straight stupid. There is no goalie available who is WORTH it.
Yes, because trading a legit center for a legit goalie when you have an overabundance of centers would be a huge mistake when the backup plan to Leighton is Boucher.

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I can tell you all right now who is next if we need cap space: Hartnell, Carle, Coburn or Meszaros.

So you trade a guy who showed a wakeup in the playoffs and is one of the only guys who is willing to commit to playing the crease or one of three d-men who represent the Flyers new move to be the deepest and most overpaid defensive corps in the league to help an unproven Leighton in net?

The move was Carter during the summer and Homer balked, now we have to look and see if Carter and Zherdev are going to follow their careers and be streaky players who lack defense when they have no offense or whether Laviolette can somehow put together lines that utilize each players assets and hope Leighton can actually play more than 30 games in a season at a high level of play and not as a backup.

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08-23-2010, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Giroux and the Flyers played their best hockey during the playoffs with Briere at center, he is a center who does not play as well on the wing.



Giroux was drafted as a RW but even during his time with the Ramparts he spent time at center. Last year I thought the same thing, he should be wing on a scoring line and it would benefit the team. After seeing his total work at center versus RW he is better at center.

Why are both these players better at center over Carter you may ask? Both can carry the puck and make other players around them better. They create space by handling the puck and under pressure can dish the puck to the open man, they also can gain the blueline with possession.



Bottom line....you have depth at center but lack of depth in net and no starting #1 goalie. Bottom line is they had a chance to move Carter during the summer but deemed him unmoveable, mistake IMO but Homer will either reap the rewards or pay for it later, the gambling man at work.



Yes, because trading a legit center for a legit goalie when you have an overabundance of centers would be a huge mistake when the backup plan to Leighton is Boucher.




So you trade a guy who showed a wakeup in the playoffs and is one of the only guys who is willing to commit to playing the crease or one of three d-men who represent the Flyers new move to be the deepest and most overpaid defensive corps in the league to help an unproven Leighton in net?

The move was Carter during the summer and Homer balked, now we have to look and see if Carter and Zherdev are going to follow their careers and be streaky players who lack defense when they have no offense or whether Laviolette can somehow put together lines that utilize each players assets and hope Leighton can actually play more than 30 games in a season at a high level of play and not as a backup.
Homer doesn't seem to think we have a problem in net at all, and I can't be the only guy here who thinks Briere at Center for 82 games is not reasonable.

Am I against putting him at Center in the playoffs? Not at all. I'm taking about the daily in and out of the regular season, where I am perfectly happy putting Briere on the wing given his non-existent defense. Carter and Briere play well together. Someone in that set-up needs to play wing, I just don't care who takes draws.

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08-23-2010, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
If things don't go well with Leighton and Boosh in net it would not surprise me to see Carter dealt for a goalie, but I am not sure what we would get in return for him but I'm pretty sure he would not be traded to Pittsburgh for MAF.
I was using Pitt as an example of a team that would be in our situation, and that's why they wouldn't accept the deal, because who wants that many centers and no goalie?

Paul Holmgren, that's who.

I'm basically saying it would be a horrible move for the Pens to do this deal, so that shows that the Flyers need to deal him for a goalie, our situation just sucks right now.

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08-23-2010, 09:55 AM
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I never understood why people think that just because a team would turn down an offer means that the offer is unfair and the players value is lower. Sometimes teams just aren't good trading partners. Btw, having a bunch of good centers is NOT a bad thing. Injuries happen and if we moved Carter and Briere got hurt which is likely to happen for some stretch of the season, who is our 3rd line Center? Kalinski? No thank you. The 2 most important positions in hockey are defense and center followed by goalie and then wingers. Stop complaining about depth.

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08-23-2010, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
I never understood why people think that just because a team would turn down an offer means that the offer is unfair and the players value is lower. Sometimes teams just aren't good trading partners. Btw, having a bunch of good centers is NOT a bad thing. Injuries happen and if we moved Carter and Briere got hurt which is likely to happen for some stretch of the season, who is our 3rd line Center? Kalinski? No thank you. The 2 most important positions in hockey are defense and center followed by goalie and then wingers. Stop complaining about depth.
I completely agree with this.

Having 4 guys who could play center in the NHL and moving one to wing is a good thing.


Last edited by IrishSniper87: 08-23-2010 at 10:04 AM.
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08-23-2010, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I completely agree with this.

Having 4 guys who could play center in the NHL and moving one 2 wing is a good thing.
People are acting like moving a Center to wing is like moving a goalie to forward. Some centers cannot play wing and be effective but giroux and briere can. Briere is a liability at center, he's always stepped up in the playoffs, but the regular season is not the same case. People need to expand thee memory beyond 6 months.

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08-23-2010, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyersCup08 View Post
I was thinking a lot about how hard it would/will be to trade Carter for (probably) a goalie at some point, because we all know (for the most part) that Leights/Boosh just aren't going to cut it.

The biggest argument against trading Carter is that he's been a 40 goal scorer and our offense needs him. Even though, right now, we have an overflow of centers (Richie, Briere, Giroux, Carter), we still want to keep 4 centers for the top 9, forcing us to put one of them on the wing.

Well I was thinking about another team that would be in our exact situation if we made a Carter trade with them: Pitt.

Carter for Fleury.

They would then have Crosby, Malkin, Staal, and Carter for their top 9, the same thing as we have now, and they would have no goalie, just like the current Flyers team does. The Flyers, on the other hand, would have a solid goalie (don't start an argument if you think Fleury sucks, this is just to make a case for trading Carter) and now 3 centers for the top 9. Does Pitt do this deal? NO WAY.

Why? Because who in their right mind would want an overflow of centers at the expense of a goalie? So since Pitt wouldn't do this, why should the Flyers be satisfied with their situation? We need to be proactive and shop Carter sooner rather than later for a legit No.1 goalie.
Well, Holmgren clearly sees the need to keep Carter long term, so the whole idea of trading him is kind of moot.

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08-23-2010, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Homer doesn't seem to think we have a problem in net at all, and I can't be the only guy here who thinks Briere at Center for 82 games is not reasonable.

Am I against putting him at Center in the playoffs? Not at all. I'm taking about the daily in and out of the regular season, where I am perfectly happy putting Briere on the wing given his non-existent defense. Carter and Briere play well together. Someone in that set-up needs to play wing, I just don't care who takes draws.
I do not buy what you are selling. Carter should be a very good wing given his size and skillset, but for "some reason" they cannot move him there, my only guess is Jeffies preference to stay at center because he is "comfortable".

And then the response will be...."Jeff Carter played horrible in the playoffs at wing, why move him back".......so I will use the same excuse as the Carter steppies....."but Carter came back on one healed foot and another recently injured foot"......in which case I will say in conclusion......Gagne came back with a broken toe and contributed with two game winners in one series.

Cartsie fan = WIN

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08-23-2010, 10:39 AM
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Carter wont be dealt for a goalie unless it is a real nice package coming back. I do think Carter will be traded though next summer.

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08-23-2010, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I do not buy what you are selling. Carter should be a very good wing given his size and skillset, but for "some reason" they cannot move him there, my only guess is Jeffies preference to stay at center because he is "comfortable".

And then the response will be...."Jeff Carter played horrible in the playoffs at wing, why move him back".......so I will use the same excuse as the Carter steppies....."but Carter came back on one healed foot and another recently injured foot"......in which case I will say in conclusion......Gagne came back with a broken toe and contributed with two game winners in one series.

Cartsie fan = WIN
Yeah, I do not see any win in this post. I never said Carter should be a wing. You did.

Then you gave all the reasons Carter shouldnt be a wing.

So basically, I see two times the fail.

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08-23-2010, 10:49 AM
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I never understood why people think that just because a team would turn down an offer means that the offer is unfair and the players value is lower. Sometimes teams just aren't good trading partners. Btw, having a bunch of good centers is NOT a bad thing. Injuries happen and if we moved Carter and Briere got hurt which is likely to happen for some stretch of the season, who is our 3rd line Center? Kalinski? No thank you. The 2 most important positions in hockey are defense and center followed by goalie and then wingers. Stop complaining about depth.
I'm not really complaining about depth, I'm complaining that we have depth at the expense of goaltending. At that point, yes, it is a problem. There's no reason to have that many centers and not have a No.1 (or even NHL-caliber) goalie.

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08-23-2010, 10:54 AM
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I'm not really complaining about depth, I'm complaining that we have depth at the expense of goaltending. At that point, yes, it is a problem. There's no reason to have that many centers and not have a No.1 (or even NHL-caliber) goalie.
Like I said, Homer disagrees with you and sees Leighton as a good young NHL starter.

If I was Homer, I would have traded for someone or signed Niemi. Niemi and Leighton can platoon, which works ok for me.

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08-23-2010, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyersCup08 View Post
I'm not really complaining about depth, I'm complaining that we have depth at the expense of goaltending. At that point, yes, it is a problem. There's no reason to have that many centers and not have a No.1 (or even NHL-caliber) goalie.
I can see what you're saying, but I don't totally agree.

I actually think the overspending on D is more egregious than the depth at center. But in any case, the center situation is totally unrelated. Holmgren easily could have gotten us a legit goalie this summer without moving Carter...he just didn't.

I'd rather see guys like Shelley or Walker off the team and see their money going to a guy like Ellis, Turco, or hell, even Biron (he's better than Leighton, IMO, and if not he's better than Boucher which would make me at least a little more comfortable with all of this).

Since that obviously didn't happen and is therefore moot, though, any trade involving Carter for a goalie has to have more coming back. I think having the right goalie is paramount and the single most important spot to fill, but that doesn't mean it comes at the expense of Carter. Carter for a goalie is a bad swap. Carter for a goalie + whatever might make more sense, but a one-for-one trade is dumb.

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08-23-2010, 11:29 AM
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People are acting like moving a Center to wing is like moving a goalie to forward. Some centers cannot play wing and be effective but giroux and briere can. Briere is a liability at center, he's always stepped up in the playoffs, but the regular season is not the same case. People need to expand thee memory beyond 6 months.
But moving Briere and Giroux to the wing does not improve the team, it weakens their ability to play their game. For some reason Carter does not have the ability to play along the boards even though he has the size and skills to be better suited at the wing. Briere and Giroux have shown and proven that they are better suited at center and make the players around them better.

Basically by keeping Carter Laviolette has guys who would be better suited playing at center but moved to wing due to Carters inability or unwillingness to move outside where he would be best suited for the team.

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08-23-2010, 11:34 AM
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[QUOTE]
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Yeah, I do not see any win in this post. I never said Carter should be a wing. You did.

Let's get back to 101 for you. It has been said Carter cannot play wing but Giroux or Briere can....lame, totally lame, period. See excuses above.

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Then you gave all the reasons Carter shouldnt be a wing.
Reading comprehension 101....all the reason for the excuses being given as to why Carter cannot move to wing, but yet Giroux or Briere can, plus excuses for why Carter was not good in the playoffs.

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So basically, I see two times the fail.
Fail is keeping Carter at center and moving Briere or Giroux.

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08-23-2010, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
But moving Briere and Giroux to the wing does not improve the team, it weakens their ability to play their game. For some reason Carter does not have the ability to play along the boards even though he has the size and skills to be better suited at the wing. Briere and Giroux have shown and proven that they are better suited at center and make the players around them better.

Basically by keeping Carter Laviolette has guys who would be better suited playing at center but moved to wing due to Carters inability or unwillingness to move outside where he would be best suited for the team.
So when Carter doesnt work out well on the wing its his fault because he should be able to or he just doesnt feel like it but when Briere and Giroux dont work on the wing it's Carter's fault for not moving to the wing? If its so easy for Carter to move to the wing why Cant briere or Giroux do it.

And for the record Briere is NOT better suited for Center. Centers needs to be defensively responsible and preferably a decent size. Briere is a horrible defensive center and as small as they come. Just take a look at his regular season production as a center. He's a liability. Let stop acting like Briere will be the playoff Briere all season long if he is left there because that has been proven to be false for years.

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08-23-2010, 11:37 AM
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Sorry but what player has giroux made better by playing at center. Giroux is better suited at wing currently because he can compliment Richards or Carter rather then have to carry a line by himself. He is not consistent enough in either end to play center in a top 6 role whereas carter and Richards are proven top 6 centers.

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08-23-2010, 11:37 AM
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[QUOTE]
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Like I said, Homer disagrees with you and sees Leighton as a good young NHL starter.
Ahem, Leighton is 30 and has been in the NHL for @9 years with just over 100 NHL starts. PLEASE STOP. This is Homers shortcoming, and the Flyers in general, never addressing the goalie situation by just getting it done, always going to the bargain rack.

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If I was Homer, I would have traded for someone or signed Niemi. Niemi and Leighton can platoon, which works ok for me.

Niemi no thanks. Trade Carter(and Carle or Coburn if necessary) for Bernier and xxxxx, or Quick for xxxx, and draft picks, or Schneider and xxxxx, and draft picks.

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