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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Rank them: Mikita, Trottier, Clarke, Messier, Sakic, Yzerman, Schmidt

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Old
08-24-2010, 06:26 PM
  #51
NOTENOUGHBREWER
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Frankly, I rate Messier as closer to Mikita than to the rest. If you needed to win a game in the playoffs, is there a better choice than prime Messier? (other than the obvious Gretzky, Orr, etc guys)
I dont consider myself educated enough to form an opinion on a guy like Mikita but he seems to be at the top of the heap on most lists on this forum. Same with Schmidt.

In this hypothetical situation if you took Messier and I took Trottier, I wouldnt feel my team was at the slightest disadvantage. If I had Yzerman or Sakic I'd feel at a clear disadvantage. Clarke would be something of a wildcard for me. Tough to say whether I felt like I was even or behind.

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Old
08-24-2010, 06:32 PM
  #52
RabbinsDuck
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I consider Mikita and Messier a step up from the others. I realize Messier really hurt his legacy after 1997, but if he retired in 1997, a lot of people would have considered him a Top 10 player for everything he brought to the table (not that he should have been quite that high, but you get the point).

Just remembering how Messier was regarded before 1997 compared to how Sakic and Yzerman were regarded at their best, it seems kind of revisionist history to rank Messier below them or even with them.

This is how I rank them:

Mikita
Messier

Sakic
Clarke/Trottier
Yzerman/Schmidt
Many also forget Yzerman was often spoken of in the same breath as Gretzky and Lemieux in the 80s. At his absolute best, he may just be the closest forward to them.

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08-24-2010, 09:06 PM
  #53
redbull
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Originally Posted by TOOMUCHBREWER View Post
It seems Mikita is at the top of everyone's list, Yzerman and Sakic flip flop on the bottom. In the middle we have Trottier, Clarke, and Messier. I'm interested in opinions on the order of those 3.

Besides Lemieux and Gretzky, it's difficult for me to contemplate a centre better than Trottier. There have been better players but when you think perfect centre and what you'd want him to be able to do, Trottier could do it.
I'd have trottier ahead of messier only for how he played at his peak, against arguably the best hockey player ever, against the most dangerous offensive team ever, and he shut them down cold.

During that 5-7 year period, at a time where 99 was the talk of the hockey world, trottier was a champion, a leader, respected as the best 2way player at the time.

Messier was incredible. Had longevity. But he didn't have to favce the oiler powerhouse teams. Trottier is ahead just for that reason - but its very close.

They both contributed in so many ways.

I'd rank clarke below those two. Not a slight at all but clarke's legacy is also based on dirty tough play as much as outright talent. Anyway, I'd say a cut below trotts and mess.

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Old
08-24-2010, 09:27 PM
  #54
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by TOOMUCHBREWER View Post
It seems Mikita is at the top of everyone's list, Yzerman and Sakic flip flop on the bottom. In the middle we have Trottier, Clarke, and Messier. I'm interested in opinions on the order of those 3.

Besides Lemieux and Gretzky, it's difficult for me to contemplate a centre better than Trottier. There have been better players but when you think perfect centre and what you'd want him to be able to do, Trottier could do it.
Trottier is for sure one of the best centers of all time. It is common knowledge that smart hockey fans, some at least, have mentioned he was the best all around player they have ever seen.

After Gretzky and Lemieux it is almost unanimous that Beliveau is the 3rd best center of all-time. Love Trotts, but he isn't better than Beliveau and I am guessing the OP knows this by NOT putting Beliveau on this list since it would have been a no brainer to put him at the top. After that Morenz would roll off the tongue of many observers. Then you've got your group originally stated in the OP, headlined by Mikita IMO.

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Old
08-24-2010, 09:36 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Moridin View Post
Trottier #1, he is the best center of all times.
Mikita, Clarke, Sakic tied for #2
Yzerman, Schmidt next
..
..
..
At bottom, the gutless puke who stole Linden's captaincy.
Is it possible that you are making this list based on your emotions? There is no way that Messier should be at the bottom of anyone's list here. It just shouldn't be possible. I just don't see how he's worse than Sakic or Yzerman or Clarke or even Schmidt. Trottier is the closest to him (Mikita is ahead of him) but even then I think Trotts falls behind him a bit when it comes to longevity, playoff resume and Hart trophies. Both won 6 Cups, but Messier was more important to his 6 combined Cups than Trottier was to his 6. Plus we saw Messier in his prime and what he could do with a team when he is the best player on that team. The results are proven.

Trottier beats him defensively but it isn't as if Mess wasn't a good checker. He was reliable, a great face off man, and while he went over the edge sometimes, he was as competitive as anyone else on the face of the earth. I wouldn't have had him change a thing. Mikita beats him on this list because it is just too impossible to ignore the Hart Trophy/Art Ross/scoring placements for about a decade. But Messier is 2nd in my mind.

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Old
08-24-2010, 09:42 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
After Gretzky and Lemieux it is almost unanimous that Beliveau is the 3rd best center of all-time. Love Trotts, but he isn't better than Beliveau and I am guessing the OP knows this by NOT putting Beliveau on this list since it would have been a no brainer to put him at the top. After that Morenz would roll off the tongue of many observers. Then you've got your group originally stated in the OP, headlined by Mikita IMO.
I think Mikita and Morenz are interchangable, though I'd take Mikita every time.

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08-24-2010, 09:47 PM
  #57
NOTENOUGHBREWER
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Trottier is for sure one of the best centers of all time. It is common knowledge that smart hockey fans, some at least, have mentioned he was the best all around player they have ever seen.

After Gretzky and Lemieux it is almost unanimous that Beliveau is the 3rd best center of all-time. Love Trotts, but he isn't better than Beliveau and I am guessing the OP knows this by NOT putting Beliveau on this list since it would have been a no brainer to put him at the top. After that Morenz would roll off the tongue of many observers. Then you've got your group originally stated in the OP, headlined by Mikita IMO.
If I had to do an all time ranking I'd have no problem putting Mikita, Beliveau, Espo out in front of Trottier. But thats based upon awards and dominance vs peers etc. If they were face off on the ice I dont think Trottier surrendered much to anyone.

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08-24-2010, 09:50 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I think Mikita and Morenz are interchangable, though I'd take Mikita every time.
I see that as well. I consider them all on a couple different tiers:

Gretzky, Lemieux, Beliveau, in order, then:

Morenz
Mikita

Trottier
Clarke
Messier
Esposito

Sakic
Yzerman
Schmidt

And I could go different ways on the order depending on the time. Lalonde might slot in there as well, but he's tough to compare to the others.

Gun to my head, if I was doing the OP, I'd put:

Mikita
Trottier
Clarke
Messier
Sakic
Yzerman
Schmidt

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Old
08-24-2010, 10:16 PM
  #59
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by TOOMUCHBREWER View Post
If I had to do an all time ranking I'd have no problem putting Mikita, Beliveau, Espo out in front of Trottier. But thats based upon awards and dominance vs peers etc. If they were face off on the ice I dont think Trottier surrendered much to anyone.
ah heck, Esposito of course. He's right behind Mikita IMO. It's just we have forgotten him on this thread since he wasn't in the OP. No, Trotts surrendered to no one on the ice, but anyone would have a hard time controlling Esposito from scoring in front of the net

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Old
08-24-2010, 11:18 PM
  #60
Joe Sakic
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Mikita
Schmidt
Clarke
Yzerman
Sakic
Messier
Trottier

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Old
08-25-2010, 09:59 AM
  #61
RabbinsDuck
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Oh, you don't have to tell me about Messier. I was one of the people shocked that he wasn't even an option for the Top 20 on the the last Top 100 list.

Has there ever been a player who did more to tarnish his legacy than Messier did after 1997?
As someone who finds Messier overrated -- Post-97 does not diminish him as a player for me, I just do not give him too many bonus points for tallying a bunch of 40-60 pt seasons when he was arguably a liability at that point, especially demanding 1st line and PP minutes.

It does, however, tarnish his legacy as the "greatest leader of all-time"; ad rightfully so.

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Old
08-25-2010, 03:56 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
As someone who finds Messier overrated -- Post-97 does not diminish him as a player for me, I just do not give him too many bonus points for tallying a bunch of 40-60 pt seasons when he was arguably a liability at that point, especially demanding 1st line and PP minutes.

It does, however, tarnish his legacy as the "greatest leader of all-time"; ad rightfully so.
I agree with the leader thing too, and I am a guy who defends Messier on an all-time ranking list too. But the common denominator is Messier in the last 7 years of his career. None of those teams made the playoffs and he left a team that had just made the semis in 1997. This is why I rank Beliveau as the best leader. From the results under his captaincy, the stories from other teammates and the quiet leadership that worked so flawlessly it is enough to convince me that Beliveau would be the best captain in any era of the NHL. He had a kill more flies with honey than vinegar vibe about his captaincy, a lot like Sakic, but you get the feeling Beliveau would be more personable to the rest of the team since Sakic had the "quiet leadership" thing down to a tee.

Messier IMO can be compared favourably to someone like Yzerman, but it's close, and let's face it, that's no insult

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Old
08-25-2010, 04:45 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I agree with the leader thing too, and I am a guy who defends Messier on an all-time ranking list too. But the common denominator is Messier in the last 7 years of his career. None of those teams made the playoffs and he left a team that had just made the semis in 1997. This is why I rank Beliveau as the best leader. From the results under his captaincy, the stories from other teammates and the quiet leadership that worked so flawlessly it is enough to convince me that Beliveau would be the best captain in any era of the NHL. He had a kill more flies with honey than vinegar vibe about his captaincy, a lot like Sakic, but you get the feeling Beliveau would be more personable to the rest of the team since Sakic had the "quiet leadership" thing down to a tee.

Messier IMO can be compared favourably to someone like Yzerman, but it's close, and let's face it, that's no insult
To me, the remarkable thing about Beliveau is that he's so eloquent, and has a very regal way about him that I haven't seen in any other NHL player.

He's not simply a "lead by example" type, he can inspire with his words too. I get that feeling even in interviews 30+ years after he's stopped playing, even when he's not speaking in his native tongue.

He would've been a fantastic Governor General.

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Old
08-25-2010, 05:05 PM
  #64
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Mikita
Clarke
Trottier
Messier
Sakic
Yzerman
Schmidt

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