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Old
08-25-2010, 05:04 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
You guys are such homers

The fact that you don't think one of the best goalies in the world minus Carter wouldn't come out as a plus, I don't get it.

The bolded part says it all. You guys have great offense, great defense, and **** in net. If you lost Carter, other moves can happen and other plaers can be added to improve your offensive situation. Coming by a top 5 goalie in this league is almost impossible and he plays the most important position. If any team got a chance to trade for a goalie of kipper's calibre they most certainly would pay in spades, and be happy about it.
Answer my question. List a deeper roster of skaters in the NHL?

Goaltending is a creation of the team. I'm honestly not worried enough about Leighton to give up Carter for any goalie in the NHL.

Leighton's numbers behind our team will be fine.

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08-25-2010, 05:25 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
You guys are such homers

The fact that you don't think one of the best goalies in the world minus Carter wouldn't come out as a plus, I don't get it.

The bolded part says it all. You guys have great offense, great defense, and **** in net. If you lost Carter, other moves can happen and other plaers can be added to improve your offensive situation. Coming by a top 5 goalie in this league is almost impossible and he plays the most important position. If any team got a chance to trade for a goalie of kipper's calibre they most certainly would pay in spades, and be happy about it.
Trading our leading scorer for a position that we still won IN SPITE OF last season just doesnt make sense. Get over yourself. Carter for Kiprusoff does NOT help the Flyers in the long run.

The Flyers are clearly capable of winning in spite of bad goaltending, so please tell me, WHY do we need a top five goalie? We had a bottom 3 goalie last year and came so close, because of the scoring depth and defensive depth that we had. Why should we ruin that?

Goaltending is important to the Flames because, quite frankly, without it, your team is in the cellar. For the Flyers? We can still win without top notch goaltending.

What we need is a steady goalie like a Chris Osgood was in Detroit. Someone that we can win WITH, not in spite of. We dont need someone like Kiprusoff who can steal the show for us every once in a while.

You need to win with your goalie, not in spite of him. But you dont need to win because of him, either.

How is that being a homer? Because I think Carter is more important to the Flyers than Kipper would be? Get real. Carter is our biggest offensive threat. Take away the leading scorer from any team, and they will suffer. That is a fact.

Carter may mean less to your average team than Kiprusoff does, but that doesnt mean anything. The Flyers are built so they dont NEED a top notch goaltender. I dont want a top notch guy, I just want the right guy. Obviously that's not Leighton or Boucher either.

EDIT: And despite what I'm saying, I dont necessarily agree with Shafer. On the surface, he is right, but he tends to exaggerate everything. I dont think the Flyers are the undisputed deepest team in the league like he says, and I most certainly AM worried about having Leighton in net. His numbers wont be fine.


Last edited by hockeyfreak7: 08-25-2010 at 05:31 PM.
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08-25-2010, 05:28 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Answer my question. List a deeper roster of skaters in the NHL?

Goaltending is a creation of the team. I'm honestly not worried enough about Leighton to give up Carter for any goalie in the NHL.

Leighton's numbers behind our team will be fine.
Agreed.I think with our defence Leighton will put up great numbers this year.

We need a goalie but im not that worried with our D core. A goalie would still be nice though.

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08-25-2010, 06:45 PM
  #79
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Kiprusoff is coming off one of the best seasons of his career... and he's declining? Did I miss something.... did he get hit by a car this off season? HF is just one big face-palm sometimes. There are very few players in this league the Flames would trade Kiprusoff straight up for, Carter isn't one of them, not even close. This is one of those deals that makes zero sense for one team (Calgary), and very little sense to the other (Philly). Not a good prosposal.

For what it's worth, in it's top 50 players, the hockey news ranked Kiprusoff (39) behind Miller (3), Bryzgalov (20), Brodeur (26) and Luongo (30). Vokoun wasn't mentioned (I agree with this), and Lundqvist (40) was placed right behind him. Rask (47) was also mentioned. You can bash the hockey news all you want, but I don't think the list is that far off, certainly no worse than some of the lists you see around here. Considering next season alone, I'd only take Miller and Brodeur ahead of Kiprusoff.

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08-25-2010, 07:00 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Answer my question. List a deeper roster of skaters in the NHL?

Goaltending is a creation of the team. I'm honestly not worried enough about Leighton to give up Carter for any goalie in the NHL.

Leighton's numbers behind our team will be fine.
Nice but I doubt he lasts half a season....then the price wont be as low when you need a new goalie.

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08-25-2010, 07:24 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
Nice but I doubt he lasts half a season....then the price wont be as low when you need a new goalie.
Nah, then we'll just move on to Boucher, who is technically a better goalie anyway.

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08-25-2010, 07:30 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Cephalusc View Post
Kiprusoff is coming off one of the best seasons of his career... and he's declining? Did I miss something.... did he get hit by a car this off season? HF is just one big face-palm sometimes. There are very few players in this league the Flames would trade Kiprusoff straight up for, Carter isn't one of them, not even close. This is one of those deals that makes zero sense for one team (Calgary), and very little sense to the other (Philly). Not a good prosposal.

For what it's worth, in it's top 50 players, the hockey news ranked Kiprusoff (39) behind Miller (3), Bryzgalov (20), Brodeur (26) and Luongo (30). Vokoun wasn't mentioned (I agree with this), and Lundqvist (40) was placed right behind him. Rask (47) was also mentioned. You can bash the hockey news all you want, but I don't think the list is that far off, certainly no worse than some of the lists you see around here. Considering next season alone, I'd only take Miller and Brodeur ahead of Kiprusoff.
A goalie cant change a game and is the least important member of the team. A team makes the goalie. A goalies either stops the puck or lets it in, it is asimple as that. stats tell the whole story.

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08-25-2010, 07:31 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Deen View Post
I would do Kipper + Bourque for Carter + Giroux
Never in a million would i do that. Calgary gets the two best players in the deal (value wise).

Do you realise how good Giroux is?

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08-25-2010, 08:52 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Answer my question. List a deeper roster of skaters in the NHL?

Goaltending is a creation of the team. I'm honestly not worried enough about Leighton to give up Carter for any goalie in the NHL.

Leighton's numbers behind our team will be fine.
1--Detroit Red Wings. Far better goaltending, too.

2--Chicago Blackhawks.

3--San Jose Sharks.

4--Washington Capitals.

5--Vancouver Canucks.

Those 5 teams are definitely deeper AND 4 of them have better goalies.

Yes, Leighton's NUMBERS will be fine behind a terrific team. Unfortunately for Philly, his inability to save his team when they fail to execute to perfection will, AGAIN, cost his team any chance at a championship.

Thank you Mr Holmgren...

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08-25-2010, 08:55 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Nah, then we'll just move on to Boucher, who is technically a better goalie anyway.
That will be a GREAT move...for whomover you face in the Finals. I mean, he and Leighton combined to allow 35 goals in 6 games against Chicago, so we know that Boucher is worth having backing up Leighton, right?

Good to know that the "better" goalie is sitting on your bench.

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08-25-2010, 09:10 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert View Post
Never in a million would i do that. Calgary gets the two best players in the deal (value wise).

Do you realise how good Giroux is?
Thats the exact same thing that popped into my head. I probably wouldnt even do Giroux for kipper straight up. Hes gonna be something special for sure.

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08-25-2010, 09:11 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
1--Detroit Red Wings. Far better goaltending, too.

2--Chicago Blackhawks.

3--San Jose Sharks.

4--Washington Capitals.

5--Vancouver Canucks.

Those 5 teams are definitely deeper AND 4 of them have better goalies.

Yes, Leighton's NUMBERS will be fine behind a terrific team. Unfortunately for Philly, his inability to save his team when they fail to execute to perfection will, AGAIN, cost his team any chance at a championship.

Thank you Mr Holmgren...
You really think that Vancouver has more depth then the flyers? Or even Detroit? I dont think im being to Baised here, but correct me if i am.

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08-25-2010, 09:12 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
As a flames fan what would you say is far value for Carter?

I would think...

Bourque+Nemisz (decent prospect)+2nd/3rd
As a Habs fan who suffers through losing to Philly far too often, U have to say that Philly loses that deal HUGE. Even Holmgren would say "no" to that...I think...

Carter is definitely worth Kipper, and vice versa. However, neither team does the deal. Carter is too important to be dealt for only a goalie, no matter how great, especially after Philly lost Gagne for nothing. Yes, Kip would be amazing in Philly and could bring that team to a cup, but it would need Kip AND Carter to win that cup. Kipper is too important for Calgary to give up for just Carter because there are too many offensive holes in Calgary to be filled by one guy and if you remove Kipper from the team there is nobody capable of stepping in and saving Calgary's butts when the offence does fail.

BOTH teams say "no" based on team needs, strengths, and weaknesses.

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08-25-2010, 09:34 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
1--Detroit Red Wings.
They have a legitimate argument.

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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
2--Chicago Blackhawks.
They may have last year. Since then, they've imploded their depth offensively.

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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
3--San Jose Sharks.
Might have an argument offensively though it's pretty close, but certainly not defensively.

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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
4--Washington Capitals.
There defense is the laughing stock of the NHL. Sorry, not quite. Offensively they have us beat, but not even close defensively.

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5--Vancouver Canucks.
See San Jose.

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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Those 5 teams are definitely deeper AND 4 of them have better goalies.
None are as deep as the Flyers except maybe Detroit, and that's only really if Lidstrom is still up to snuff. I didn't see a lot of Detroit games, but I heard he had a down year.

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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Yes, Leighton's NUMBERS will be fine behind a terrific team. Unfortunately for Philly, his inability to save his team when they fail to execute to perfection will, AGAIN, cost his team any chance at a championship.
Whatever floats your boat.

By the way, we're Eastern Conference CHAMPIONS, in case you weren't aware. Didn't see Leighton costing us championships when he was busy posting three shutouts on Montreal thanks to our roster.

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08-25-2010, 09:57 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
By the way, we're Eastern Conference CHAMPIONS, in case you weren't aware. Didn't see Leighton costing us championships when he was busy posting three shutouts on Montreal thanks to our roster.
Which player are you? Since you said we and all. What exactly does that mean anyway? That they are losers like the other 28 teamm who didnt win the cup? The old saying rings true, second place is for losers.

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08-25-2010, 10:04 PM
  #91
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Which player are you? Since you said we and all.
All-star Jody Shelley?

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What exactly does that mean anyway? That they are losers like the other 28 teamm who didnt win the cup? The old saying rings true, second place is for losers.
Awesome. Maybe next year you'll be satisfied with a lottery pick then. At least that way, we're working toward maybe a shot at a Stanley Cup right?

I've really never met a Flyers fan who seems to hate the Flyers as much as you.

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08-25-2010, 10:11 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
All-star Jody Shelley?



Awesome. Maybe next year you'll be satisfied with a lottery pick then. At least that way, we're working toward maybe a shot at a Stanley Cup right?

I've really never met a Flyers fan who seems to hate the Flyers as much as you.
Simmer down Charlie and relax a little. Well, when you have seen year after year of failure for as long as i have Eastern conf champs means nothing to me. Even when they get a lottery pick they fail.

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08-25-2010, 11:13 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by flyersflyers18 View Post
You really think that Vancouver has more depth then the flyers? Or even Detroit? I dont think im being to Baised here, but correct me if i am.
Vancouver's top 8 players all had over 40 points last year, and they are returning. Philly had 7 players with 40 or more points, 6 of whom are returning. Vancouver had 6 players score over 20 goals, Philly had 3. Vancouver addressed their team's top priorities in the off season by fixing their defence. Philly lost offensive talent and didn't address the team's most glaring need by steadfastly refusing to get a real goalie.

LW: Vancouver--Sedin, Burrows and Raymod are far stronger than Hartnell, JVR and Leino.

C: Vancouver--Sedin and Kesler are better than Richards and Carter.

RW: Philly are stronger there.

Defence: Philly.

Goaltending: Vancouver.

Detroit is more even with Philly, but I would give them the edge, overall.

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08-25-2010, 11:40 PM
  #94
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They have a legitimate argument.

Agreed.

They may have last year. Since then, they've imploded their depth offensively.

The players they lost are all replaceable. Chicago didn't lose any top tier talent and actually strengthened their biggest weakness by taking the goalie your team wanted in Turco.

Might have an argument offensively though it's pretty close, but certainly not defensively.

Way better offensively, weaker defensively. Goaltending will be the deciding factor and the edge would seem to go to San Jose since we know Philly has garbage in nets.

There defense is the laughing stock of the NHL. Sorry, not quite. Offensively they have us beat, but not even close defensively.

You beat Washington defensively, but you are not even close at either the offence or goaltending positions.

See San Jose.

Vancouver is better offensively, overall. Philly is better defensively, but we will see if Vancouver added enough over the summer to close the gap. Vancouver smokes your goaltending completely.

None are as deep as the Flyers except maybe Detroit, and that's only really if Lidstrom is still up to snuff. I didn't see a lot of Detroit games, but I heard he had a down year.

A case can be made that all of those teams are better than Philly.

Whatever floats your boat.

By the way, we're Eastern Conference CHAMPIONS, in case you weren't aware. Didn't see Leighton costing us championships when he was busy posting three shutouts on Montreal thanks to our roster.
Yes, Philly went to the Finals as the Eastern Conference Champs. They can thank Montreal for beating the 2 teams that would have beaten Philly, too. I love the Habs, but we had a Cinderella run last year that will be difficult to repeat due to our trading the GOALIE who was the MAIN reason we beat those two teams. Philly was lucky enough to get favourable match-ups in the playoffs, which facilitated their being in the Finals. Certain teams Philly will beat, others, not so much. Yes, Philly shut out Montreal, but that had more to do with Montreal not being a big enough team to battle Philly's size, Markov being out, and Montreal's lack of scoring,far more than it had anything to do with Leighton. Ovechkin and company are not smurfs and would have eaten your team alive. Are you starting to catch on to why a very good to elite goalie is better than a mediocre one in the playoffs? For example:Nabakov at 6mil would have helped your team far more than Mezsaros, Shelley and Walker will for about the same cap hit. Had Holgren not traded for Mezsaros, then signed Shelley, and sent Gagne away for a second, you have enough to get Nabakov and Gagne's replacement. Nabakov would have helped your team far more than Mezsaros and Walker will.

No, Leighton didn't cost you a championship against the Habs. He certainly did against Chicago, even though Chicago had mediocre to average goaltending to boot!

I really want the season to start and end so we can revisit this topic next summer...

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08-25-2010, 11:51 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Nah, then we'll just move on to Boucher, who is technically a better goalie anyway.
god...lay off that koolaid...it's bad enough with just Leighton...now you want to rely on Boucher who is at best an inconsistent backup.

Dont let it got to your head. Your team were lucky to get to the final (without facing Pitts and Wash, the two best teams). You met a real team in the final and your goalie did cost you the series.Main reason Chicago won with an unproven goalie was cause they faced a team with even a worse goalie.

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08-26-2010, 12:03 AM
  #96
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Holy homerism Batman!

And to the guy who posted Kipper, Bourque for Carter, Giroux...


...


...


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08-26-2010, 12:12 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Vancouver's top 8 players all had over 40 points last year, and they are returning. Philly had 7 players with 40 or more points, 6 of whom are returning. Vancouver had 6 players score over 20 goals, Philly had 3. Vancouver addressed their team's top priorities in the off season by fixing their defence. Philly lost offensive talent and didn't address the team's most glaring need by steadfastly refusing to get a real goalie.

LW: Vancouver--Sedin, Burrows and Raymod are far stronger than Hartnell, JVR and Leino.
Leino is a RW.

Edge to Vancouver regardless.

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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
C: Vancouver--Sedin and Kesler are better than Richards and Carter.
Not by much. Also, who does Vancouver have better than Briere/Giroux as their third line center?

Edge to Philly.

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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
RW: Philly are stronger there.
Duh. Briere/Giroux + Zherdev + Leino.

Edge to Philly.

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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Defence: Philly.
Clearly.

Edge to Philly.

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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Goaltending: Vancouver.
Talent? Yes. Production? We'll see.

A goaltender's job is black and white. Either the puck goes in or it doesn't, so in the end, a goalie's job is production.

I'm not so sure Luongo's production will be vastly superior to Leighton's. It'll probably be relatively close compared to their huge disparity in talent.

Edge to Vancouver.

All together:

Offense --> Philly
Defense --> Philly
Goaltending --> Vancouver (and every other team in the NHL)

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Detroit is more even with Philly, but I would give them the edge, overall.
Who cares? You don't even know Philly's left wingers.

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08-26-2010, 01:07 AM
  #98
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I can't believe that Flyers fans think that Leighton will IMPROVE this season. He played his best stretch of his career during the regular season and played above average (for Leighton) during the playoffs. You guys were one shootout from missing the playoffs because the Leighton/Boucher tandem that "doesn't matter". Either one of those guys have to play way above their heads for the Flyers to make the finals again, let alone win it.

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08-26-2010, 01:28 AM
  #99
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Vokoun is clearly not "obviously" better than Kipper and neither is Lundqvist at this point in time.

I dont see a thing that either of the guys have done that kipper hasnt done in his career.
Have you ever watched a Ranger game? Lundqvist is one of the best goalies in the league and most certainly better than Kipper, who has regressed for the best four seasons. New York's defense has been bloody awful for quite some time, yet they maintain a status quo because of solid, lights out goaltending. Lundqvist only falters down the stretch because of the immense reliance on him.

That being said, while I do believe Philly's refusal to improve in goaltending will be their demise in the short term. There is no reason to part with Carter to acquire Kipper. This off season they could have acquired Nabakov, Halak, Vokoun (possibly) or simply signed a filler like Biron, and then move Carter for picks and prospects. If Calagry wanted a center, the only one I believe Philly would move is Brierre and Calagry does not want him.

Quote:
Not by much. Also, who does Vancouver have better than Briere/Giroux as their third line center?

Edge to Philly.
This is a little pushing it. Henrik Sedin and Kesler are definitely better than Carter and Richards. In terms of production, Sedin is some twenty to thirty points ahead of both even on their best year compared to his. Carter had 84 points in his best season, Richards 80, while Kesler had 75. The only advantage Carter/Richards have over Sedin is size. Kesler is the better two way player and Sedin is notably better overall.

One could still argue an edge to Philly due to the superiority on the third/four lines in Philly's favor however I would say a draw more.


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08-26-2010, 01:30 AM
  #100
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Calgary says no. Why?

Carter in the east is a 35-40 goal guy because of the goal-tending(for the most part) isn't great. In the west he's a 25-30 goal guy.

Kipper in the east would still be Kipper, I know it's hard for people in the east to watch this guy but I truly believe he would make most top eastern teams an instant contender or even cup favorite. He might be 34 soon (since when is 34 old?) but he's still the quickest I ever seen. Side to side he's absolutely the fastest IMO, never gives up on a puck. He's a rare breed whereas he doesn't seem to have a weak-spot for coaches to tune into, most goalies have a weak spot. Luongo(high blocker) Lundqvist (low left pad) Fleury (low right pad) ....etc. Vokoun is simular to Kipper with no real weakness except I don't think Vokoun plays under the same pressure night in night out

How many goalies have over 180 wins the last 5 years? and over half of those wins are directly because of him.

No disrespect to Carter but it would take more than him to get Kipper regardless of the age difference.

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