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Old
10-17-2010, 10:43 AM
  #26
JVR
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I don't think anyone disagrees.

They need a starter right now until Ziffzer comes back.
Young Steinhauser was great today but you can't expect
a 18-year-old who still goes to school to start every game
for a DEL club and he can't take part in practice.

Renkewitz might suck but he's still the better alternative.

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10-18-2010, 04:36 AM
  #27
Chapin Landvogt
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Wow, how does Steinhauer hold Berlin to only two goals???

And by the way, if the season were to end today, would it be fair to say that Adam Mitchell would be an MVP candidate???

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10-19-2010, 02:28 PM
  #28
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Langmann is the luckiest goalie ever.
Also love his Indians mask.

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10-20-2010, 06:38 AM
  #29
Chapin Landvogt
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I found last night's game to be quite amazing.

That Steinhauer and Langmann have been in goal for back-to-back 3-2 victories is, well, almost to be considered simply amazing.

Normally, these two kids shouldn't even be sniffing DEL air, much less starting a game.

Don't know how long this will go on, but considering Hannover's injuries and the goalie situation, I'd have to say that most DEL teams would NOT be able to win under these conditions.

Despite the late goals by Nuremberg, Langmann played as good a game as you could possibly expect from a kid in his situation.

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10-20-2010, 03:26 PM
  #30
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Sine Scott left the team seems to be playing even harder and give additional 10% to fight for the youngs guys in net.

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Old
10-23-2010, 01:38 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zecke26 View Post
shows how smart it is to have all 4 goalies only on loan.

but is renkewitz any better than langmann or steinhauer? not exactly the starter hannover needs.
True. And now it's five with Linda being signed

I doubt that Renkewitz would really make a DEL team happy as a regular starting goalie. Since Hannover seems to be really short in cash (if they even can't afford to sign aus den Birken), they'd have to go with Langmann/Steinhauer for the next 5 weeks. You could do worse, but at some point, those young goalies are going to get crushed.

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10-24-2010, 09:53 AM
  #32
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And the 18-year old goalies keep on winning!

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Old
10-29-2010, 03:57 AM
  #33
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It just shows how good Hannover are, Scott who?

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Old
11-09-2010, 09:51 PM
  #34
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Am I misinterpreting these posts, or does it appear that the DEL is in absolute turmoil right now? Teams folding, teams with no goalies...

Was ist los with the elite league in the nation my family came from?

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Old
11-10-2010, 05:47 AM
  #35
Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
Am I misinterpreting these posts, or does it appear that the DEL is in absolute turmoil right now? Teams folding, teams with no goalies...

Was ist los with the elite league in the nation my family came from?
Well, after a stunning 4th place finish at the WC, the summer was unfortunately plagued by the Kassel Huskies issue and then the news about several teams being on the cusp of bankruptcy.

Also very unfortunate is that the sport of ice hockey as a paid profession has been anything but stable at various levels of pro and semi-pro hockey throughout Germany. It often just can't be financed well.

At the moment, unless things get ugly with Hannover or Krefeld again, things look fairly stable. One goes through the season knowing that a number of clubs could have bad news to report by the end of the season.

What's more interesting is seeing traditionally financially sound and capable teams thus far lurking in the netherregions of the DEL standings. Each of Mannheim, Hamburg and Köln are amongst the worst 6 teams in the league at the moment, granted spots 4-9 are seperated by only 4 or 5 points.

In addition, Munich has come out of nowhere to be a successful club while Nuremburg has been real solid of late. More surprisingly is the 1st place ranking of a close-knit Hannover team that not only seems to be in the most dire financial straits, but is also using several teenagers in goal - and continuing to win. It's just sick. In addition, their offense seems to be generated by a set group of 6 forwards and one Dman. Quite a success story going on there.

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Old
11-10-2010, 06:22 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
At the moment, unless things get ugly with Hannover or Krefeld again, things look fairly stable. One goes through the season knowing that a number of clubs could have bad news to report by the end of the season.
stable? the attendance figures compared to last season are awful. cologne was short of collapsing in summer, is now at the bottom, the attendance is down and you think that's stable?
düsseldorf is over 1000 fans short of calculation or so.

i still think the DEL is a dead product and done within the next two years. there's no future for a league that is not able to think as a union, but only as individuals and who don't see that there's a problem at all. actually that's the biggest reason of the DEL failure. there's 14 owners who only think of their own team and no outside ruler like a federation.

and besides the whole off ice issues, the DEL games i watched this season were boring. emotionless hockey with dead crowds and questionable reffing.

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Old
11-10-2010, 07:41 AM
  #37
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Nothing more to add to that!

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Old
11-11-2010, 06:53 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by zecke26 View Post
stable? the attendance figures compared to last season are awful. cologne was short of collapsing in summer, is now at the bottom, the attendance is down and you think that's stable?
düsseldorf is over 1000 fans short of calculation or so.

i still think the DEL is a dead product and done within the next two years. there's no future for a league that is not able to think as a union, but only as individuals and who don't see that there's a problem at all. actually that's the biggest reason of the DEL failure. there's 14 owners who only think of their own team and no outside ruler like a federation.

and besides the whole off ice issues, the DEL games i watched this season were boring. emotionless hockey with dead crowds and questionable reffing.
On the other hand, didn't last season set attendance records (although due much in part to Berlin's great attendance in the new building)?

True though, I didn't think about the general lack of attendance in traditional hotbeds like Düsseldorf and of course Cologne. Still, everyone knew Cologne would likely NOT be anything more than a team fighting for spot 10, even if last place is currently still a disappointment - one that team will feel at the box office. Maybe the Stewart dismisal will see that change a bit???

In addition Zeke, if I remember correctly, you're from the Kassel region and that's the club you support, right? I feel the DEL clubs were absolutely right in their decision towards the Kassel's attempt to stay in the league, especially as I understood it described in the Eishockey News DEL preview magazine. I know it's a more North American idea, but the teams must stick together on some fronts and there seemed to be absolute unity on that issue - almost surprisingly!

I'm not a big fan of the financial inspection process that goes on every summer, especially seeing as how an arbitrary body does the examination, gives teams the green light and THEN weeks later we hear about their dire straits. Seems very odd to me...

It will be interesting to see how the league deals with the problems it currently has and how it goes about handling them. I think we'd see a reduction to 5 foreigners and every team somehow required to incorporate several more of its own regional players before it would collapse/fold entirely, as we all know that'd likely go a good ways in lowering costs and generating a bit more interest amongst its fanbase. In fact, going even more North American in its league design (which is surprisingly socialistic on this front), I can see a certain NHL-style salary cap being instituted at a stricter level as well.

I think the owners are pretty much aware that this sport doesn't necessary have a future in Germany as a 17'000 building-filling item, with very few exceptions.

As for the in-game quality, I've only been to 3 Freezers games myself this season and watched a few games on Sky or Eurosport and I can't say my level of interest or the quality of the product was anything more or less than what we've seen in previous years, generally speaking. As someone who likes the Scorpions and Freezers, I'm terribly disappionted in Hamburgs' inability to play effectively despite a very good roster on paper (once again) while I continue to be amazed at what we're seeing in Hannover, where the Scorpions just don't have the fanbase to feed off of. There's just a very, very unique hockey situation there, what with the Indians enjoying such a cult following and even Oberliga hockey (officially) having its loyal following as well.

On a sidenote, I am curious about how the Deutschland Cup's attendance will be this weekend.

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Old
11-11-2010, 09:44 AM
  #39
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when you already discuss about the futur of del, i have a question.

when i watch preparation games between switzerland and germany on dsf (now sport1?) the commentator loves to quote Hans Zach about the problem with the youth hockey. he says, that only a few teams have a really good promotion of young hockey player and on the other hand, for the most clubs, it only exist on paper .... that's why zach want a import limit. so ALL clubs start to focuss on the youth ...
my question, is it really so bad? i know, that in Bavaria they do a really good job. what's about the rest of germany?

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11-11-2010, 10:39 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
On the other hand, didn't last season set attendance records (although due much in part to Berlin's great attendance in the new building)?
attendance record because of berlin, yeah. that record is very misleading.

Quote:
True though, I didn't think about the general lack of attendance in traditional hotbeds like Düsseldorf and of course Cologne. Still, everyone knew Cologne would likely NOT be anything more than a team fighting for spot 10, even if last place is currently still a disappointment - one that team will feel at the box office. Maybe the Stewart dismisal will see that change a bit???
that team is simply awful to watch. it has no character. there's no renz anymore. way too many floaters.
and i still don't understand why they signed stewart back then. cologne spends a lot of money on youth and they had some really good talents the past years, but stewart hates young players. he proved in the past that he's no able to develop such guys.
the only chance for cologne is to play the german card, build a new identity and maybe the attendance will rise again. but i somehow doubt they will do it. at least eichin is no longer responsible.

Quote:
In addition Zeke, if I remember correctly, you're from the Kassel region and that's the club you support, right? I feel the DEL clubs were absolutely right in their decision towards the Kassel's attempt to stay in the league, especially as I understood it described in the Eishockey News DEL preview magazine. I know it's a more North American idea, but the teams must stick together on some fronts and there seemed to be absolute unity on that issue - almost surprisingly!
you remember correctly that i'm from kassel. but i can't say i was a fan of the DEL franchise named huskies anymore. my alienation process from the enterprise kassel huskies started a few years ago. my hate for the DEL is surely because of the huskies, but not because of last summer, but because of the club i once felt being part of turned into a capitalist enterprise where fans were nothing but dumb consumers. and that happened to a lot of clubs. i think that's one of the reasons why longtime fans turned their back on the DEL teams and the attendance is so low.
about the issue in summer i can tell you that the EHN was lying on so many things. that newspaper is not even worth the paper it is written on. neither side was right IMO. it wasn't fun to see the huskies officials act like idiots, but it's not like the DEL was any better. i would say that the whole conflict reflected in a perfect way in what state of condition the DEL is in these days. and if you think for a moment who was part of that conflict from the DEL side, you will find the same egomaniacs as usual. those who want to have power, want to be in the media, but have no idea about hockey at all. i'm not even sure they care about hockey.

Quote:
I'm not a big fan of the financial inspection process that goes on every summer, especially seeing as how an arbitrary body does the examination, gives teams the green light and THEN weeks later we hear about their dire straits. Seems very odd to me...
that whole process is laughable.

Quote:
I think the owners are pretty much aware that this sport doesn't necessary have a future in Germany as a 17'000 building-filling item, with very few exceptions.
maybe that would have been possible if they would have had a strategy how to rise slowly. but they had to go from a solid level to the max immediately. the whole pay tv is perfect example. instead of keeping free tv appearance to make sure people know your product, they went for the oh so attractive pay tv contract. football is able to do that, germany is football, but we talk about hockey here. that was such a dumb move.

Quote:
As for the in-game quality, I've only been to 3 Freezers games myself this season and watched a few games on Sky or Eurosport and I can't say my level of interest or the quality of the product was anything more or less than what we've seen in previous years, generally speaking. As someone who likes the Scorpions and Freezers, I'm terribly disappionted in Hamburgs' inability to play effectively despite a very good roster on paper (once again) while I continue to be amazed at what we're seeing in Hannover, where the Scorpions just don't have the fanbase to feed off of. There's just a very, very unique hockey situation there, what with the Indians enjoying such a cult following and even Oberliga hockey (officially) having its loyal following as well.
the scorpions i enjoy to watch because of team working their ***** off each game. such a bad situation they are in and still they give everything on the ice. you can see that this team was build by zach.
munich is another example of a team that might be not as talented, but using the promotion as motivation. a positive surprise.
but in the general what i see on the ice is floating, no touch hockey and everything in a very slow level. not even berlin who was a positive exemption in the past is playing their fast hockey anymore.

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Old
11-11-2010, 11:02 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peachy89 View Post
when you already discuss about the futur of del, i have a question.

when i watch preparation games between switzerland and germany on dsf (now sport1?) the commentator loves to quote Hans Zach about the problem with the youth hockey. he says, that only a few teams have a really good promotion of young hockey player and on the other hand, for the most clubs, it only exist on paper .... that's why zach want a import limit. so ALL clubs start to focuss on the youth ...
my question, is it really so bad? i know, that in Bavaria they do a really good job. what's about the rest of germany?
the situation of youth hockey is hard to explain, because there are so many aspects.
the lack of rinks is one thing. especially with the multi-functional arenas, you need one, better would be two, extra rinks to let the pro team practice but also to give the kids ice-time. while every arena has one other rink usually, it's not enough IMO. and the best hours per day are blocked for the pro team. then the rink has to be finances which leads to public skating where you earn money. so kids hockey bumps down again. that leads to awful times for kids to practice. may it be in the evening or early in the morning.

the you have the youth programs in general. in bavaria where there's a hockey culture, some teams produce a lot of talent. landshut for example produced a lot of talent lately. bad tölz and füssen are two other examples. there are a few more.
but outside of bavaria there are some really good programs too. mannheim in first place who have an amazing program. berlin and the clubs in the west (cologne, düsseldorf, krefeld) do a pretty good job too.
you have some smaller clubs like schwenningen, iserlohn, maybe kassel who try to do the best they can with very limited funds.
and you have a few teams in non-hockey areas who try, but...well...they try. hamburger sv/bremerhaven to mention the north.
in southern germany hockey is more common, there are more rinks, there's more interest, so there's more talent. while in northern parts with lower interest there's obviously less talent.

but...all of those structure problems alone are not the problem. i personally think the talent in germany is there and germany could crack the top8 nations easily with talent alone. the problem is that you need to develop talent and here comes the big failure. the steps from youth hockey to pro hockey are not easy. but in germany it's even tougher. because even in 2nd-tier the teams rather play import players or former imports with a german passport than to develop a young player.
it's easier for a canadian to get a german passport than for a young german to get ice-time.

mannheim for example spends a ******** of money each year for their U18 team, yet they failed in the past to turn those guys into good DEL players. they get loaned to 2nd-tier heilbronn, play only bottom 6 there too and stop developing. they get no chance to prove themselves. the lineup is basically a rundown of the salary. the salary decides where you play.

i could continue with those examples forever, but that basically counts for every DEL team.

the reasons why teams don't use youth are different. coaches for example have to rely on imports, because these days everyone wants to get success fast. if a coach uses youth and says he wants to develop them and asks for a 2-3y window to build something, you can be sure he's fired midseason because of the lack of success. there's no patience anymore.

the reduction of imports would help, but it should be in steps. at the moment there are not enough well-developed talents to fill those spots. reduce by 1 each year would give enough time to develop more players into solid DELers. the talent is there, but you need to give them a chance or they will stop with progress, rotting in minors.

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Old
11-11-2010, 11:42 AM
  #42
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thank you for the information

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Old
11-13-2010, 02:17 AM
  #43
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attendance is about the same as last season if you look at the numbers in relation to the time of the season. Mannheim and Düsseldorf do have a problem though. On the other hand Nürnberg, Hannover and Krefeld were able to raise their average. Augsburg is a special case because of the construction work.
interesting read about the attendance figures:
http://www.sportal.de/sportal/genera...205600000.html

I agree with most people here that german pro hockey in general has a lot of unused potential shown by the Kassel Huskies and Löwen Frankfurt who get higher attandances in the the lower tiers than many DEL-teams.

Having said that I find it amazing that the DEL after over 16 years of trouble and worries still exists.

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11-13-2010, 08:42 AM
  #44
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Quote:
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the reduction of imports would help, but it should be in steps. at the moment there are not enough well-developed talents to fill those spots. reduce by 1 each year would give enough time to develop more players into solid DELers. the talent is there, but you need to give them a chance or they will stop with progress, rotting in minors.
i guess you already know, that they decided to reduce the import (even if you write would instead of will, because it's fact )
http://www.eishockeynews.de/nachrich...richt_id=13093

Saison 2012/13 max: 9 imports
Saison 2014/15 max: 8 imports

i read through a lot of comments on diffrent websites about this theme. it was pretty funny, that the most say, it's stupid to reduce because there aren't to much german talents out there, who can fill the gap and they want, that the teams first start to spend more money for the youth organisation before they reduce the imports. so i went through all roster of the del teams. the most teams have 10 imports, a few have 11 and other teams have 7,8 or 9. so, i guess the step to reduce are realistic and won't have a negative influence for the league?

sorry, that i talk about this theme again, i just think, the young players are the most important thing for the future of the sport

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11-13-2010, 09:45 AM
  #45
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The point those who want to see a better talent level among the prospects before reducing the import spots are trying to make, is that a reduction would lead to more players with German background being brought into the league.

In other words, the open spots wouldn't go to young German players but to Canadians or Americans with German ancestry. Players who don't need an import spot but can't play for Germany either. Reducing the number of imports would lead to teams increasing their efforts in finding those players. They may be further along in development than young German players, but neither have the talent nor do they bring much to the league.


Quite frankly, I don't really see that. Teams will always look for those players, but coaches either have an interest in using young Germans or they don't, those players won't change much about that.

That being said, improving prospect development and getting young players icetime at a high level is indeed one of, if not the biggest problem. The gap between junior hockey and the two best men's leagues is just too big.

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Old
11-14-2010, 09:52 AM
  #46
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The Freezers just signed two new players, goalie Dan Taylor and defenseman Sean Curry. Maybe it's just me, but that looks a lot like a desperation move to me.

Richer had been rather vocal about his disappointment in Marc Lamothe, something I never really understood. He wasn't setting the world on fire, but he wasn't nearly as bad as suggested either. The defense has always been the problem, both in defending and generating offense. Instead of trying to improve that area and see whether it helps the goalies, Richer went on to put the blame on the goalie. That is not the way to treat your players.

I'm not so sure whether a tall defenseman who is known for lots of penalties is a good choice either, if you lack mobility on defense and have trouble with discipline.

In addition, it would be nice if more than two forwards would show up on a regular basis.

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11-14-2010, 09:56 AM
  #47
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richer is a bad coach IMO. never impressed me here in kassel. and what always stands out are his excuses. the team always played well, but had no luck blah blah.

i have a bet going on that richer is fired before christmas. so far it looks like i have a chance to win it.

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Old
11-21-2010, 02:07 PM
  #48
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Anybody else watching Munich - Straubing?

This is actually a decent game, players are finishing their checks (!!!) and the refs are letting them play (!!!).

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11-21-2010, 02:46 PM
  #49
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I wonder if this penalty shootout will ever end?

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11-21-2010, 02:54 PM
  #50
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Still going on...

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