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Old
08-26-2010, 03:42 PM
  #51
Garbage Goal
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
havent you heard? leighton performed tolerably for about 30 games last season/post-season, that means he's now an NHL-caliber starter who will be our savior in net.
I've also heard that, in some insane fashion, Jody Shelley is the only bad move of the off-season and that none of the goalies available aside from Nabokov and Turco are enough of an upgrade to make a difference in net or to even be worth trying to get.

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08-26-2010, 03:52 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I've also heard that, in some insane fashion, Jody Shelley is the only bad move of the off-season and that none of the goalies available aside from Nabokov and Turco are enough of an upgrade to make a difference in net or to even be worth trying to get.
Jody Shelley is actually one of our least bad moves this offseason... that is how bad the bad was. Spend a few minutes trying to wrap your head around that one, haha.

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08-26-2010, 03:56 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
Responded in bold.
How about your make your responses by wrapping Quote tags around my original statements rather than bold tags around your responses. You know, that way I could quote your responses and it's basically the same amount of effort.


However, you are constantly talking about how we're supposedly screwed next offseason. Of course you are assuming that all the contracts currently on the books will stay on the books, and in the very least with Walker I wouldn't be so sure about that. Even with him, there are 15 players under contract and about 13 million in cap space, left, and this is assuming that the cap will stay the same (which I doubt). Extending Carter and Giroux and filling out the roster should still be manageable under these conditions.

I simply don't get this defeatist ******** of "oh, we're already ****ed for years".

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08-26-2010, 04:01 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
Jody Shelley is actually one of our least bad moves this offseason... that is how bad the bad was. Spend a few minutes trying to wrap your head around that one, haha.
Yeah, Shelley wouldn't have been bad as a 13th forward if he was signed to a reasonable contract. As is though it's a pretty bad deal.

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08-26-2010, 04:11 PM
  #55
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Some people here need to relax and take a chill pill. Let's just look forward to a season of hockey.

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08-26-2010, 04:25 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
How about your make your responses by wrapping Quote tags around my original statements rather than bold tags around your responses. You know, that way I could quote your responses and it's basically the same amount of effort.


However, you are constantly talking about how we're supposedly screwed next offseason. Of course you are assuming that all the contracts currently on the books will stay on the books, and in the very least with Walker I wouldn't be so sure about that. Even with him, there are 15 players under contract and about 13 million in cap space, left, and this is assuming that the cap will stay the same (which I doubt). Extending Carter and Giroux and filling out the roster should still be manageable under these conditions.

I simply don't get this defeatist ******** of "oh, we're already ****ed for years".
Yeah, that is laziness on my part, I will try to stop doing that in the future.

Next year under contract we have:

Briere - 6.5M
Richards - 5.75M
Hartnell - 4.2M
JVR - 1.654M
Lappy - 1.166M
Shelley - 1.1M
Betts - 0.7M
Timonen - 6.33M
Pronger - 4.921M
Meszaros - 4M
Carle - 3.437M
Coburn - 3.2M
Walker - 1.7M
Bartulis - 0.6M
Leighton - 1.55M

That is 46.8M on 1G, 7D and 7F

Let us assume for the sake of argument that the cap stays the same next year (although it will more than likely lower as the recession catches up with the league).

That means: 59.4M-46.8M = 12.6M for 1G and 5F

I will give modest predictions of what players will ask for:
Carter - 6.5M (I think closer to 8, though)
Giroux - 2.5M (I think closer to 3.5, though)
Leino - 2M (I think closer to 2.5, though)
Zherdev - 4M (I think closer to 5M, though)
Carcillo - 1M (I think closer to 1.2M, though)

Even with very modest salary demands we can only keep Carter and one other of the 4 and still field a complete roster, let alone a competent one... let's assume it is Carter+Giroux:

12.6M-9M = 3.6M for 1G and 3F

Means we will have another pedestrian backup and a pretty terrible 3rd forward line, seems very Blackhawkish to me.

If Carter and Giroux ask for what I expect then we will likely be FORCED to move Carter... and we all saw how great Holmgren is at moving salary dumps for assets with Gagne. Sure, we could move Walker (along with a 2nd round pick for good measure) to someone to free up his cap space, but we would still likely be forced to take cap back. Freeing up cap space is alot harder than some people like to believe... even after watching first hand the Gagne fleecing.

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08-26-2010, 05:17 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Sorry if I sound like Chris Shafer here, but I can already tell that I can't talk to you. I can already tell that this is just going to be one massive circular conversation and that you won't budge even in the face of facts so I'm just gonna give up now.
What "facts" are you talking about? You are essentially saying that Leighton is a terrible goalie and can't win, even though last season he proved that he can by doing exactly that...winning. I have agreed with you that the other goalies are better, never said they weren't. I agree that I am not going to change my mind because there is literally nothing you could say that would change my mind, just like there is nothing I could say to change your mind. The only person who can change either of our minds is Michael Leighton. If he goes out there and ***** the bed and the team is losing 6-5 every night, ok I was wrong and I will immediately admit to it and say how bad of a move it turned out to be. But for his entire tenure with the Flyers (this time around) he has done nothing more than perform at a level that allowed this team to make it to the Stanley Cup Finals. You cannot deny that. No matter how much you think he sucks and how much you think he is overpaid. Last season he played well enough to make it to the Finals. Until he does otherwise, I am not going to say we need a new goalie. The bottom line of it is, and I have said it before, a win is a win and that is all that matters in the end.

This is just a shot in the dark here, but my guess is that next season if the team comes out and is winning, very few people, if any, will give Leighton any credit. However if the team goes and starts losing, it will be only Michael Leighton's fault (and by proxy Paul Holmgren's fault). Just a guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
havent you heard? leighton performed tolerably for about 30 games last season/post-season, that means he's now an NHL-caliber starter who will be our savior in net.
Haven't you heard? No one can ever improve their play and become an NHL caliber goalie especially on a team with an incredible defense. It is a well known fact that every goalie ever in the history of the NHL started out as an NHL caliber goalie and never played poorly in their career.

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08-26-2010, 05:28 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post


Haven't you heard? No one can ever improve their play and become an NHL caliber goalie especially on a team with an incredible defense. It is a well known fact that every goalie ever in the history of the NHL started out as an NHL caliber goalie and never played poorly in their career.
this isn't michael leighton's 2nd season. its his 8th. what else is there for him to learn or work on? he doesnt have some hidden, magical reserve of talent that will make him a legitimate starter. this isnt NHL10. holmgren can't just pump XP points into his stats and call it a day. throughout his career, leighton barely proved he could be a backup. he wins 16 regular season games, and 8 PO games(behind a great defensive team), and he suddenly becomes a real goalie?

don't you see how that just doesn't make any logical sense? thats not even a GOOD hot streak. look at craig anderson last year for a good hot streak. find one game that we won solely because of michael leighton. i dont think there's a single one.

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08-26-2010, 05:43 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
I have decided to compile and actively update a list (from those who reply to this thread with their own entries) of Homer's egregious **** ups this off season that we can point people who defense him to. This post is mainly for reference, certainly things can be discussed, but let's try to keep this from a debate over Homer's incompetence and rather just a list of proof of his incompetence.

I will list them in terms of position.

Forward **** ups:
-Passing on proven forwards who signed for cheap cap hits: Belanger(1.85M), Torres(1M)
-Not adaquately replacing Gagne's two-way presence in the forward corps
-Attempting to roll 3 scoring lines with 8 top 9 players (and a giant question mark in regular season Leino)
-Refusing to address the ongoing faceoff problem
-Feeling the need to ruin the best 4th line in the NHL to add a goon


Defense **** ups:
-Not giving Bartulis a fair chance of fighting for the 6th dman spot


Goalie **** ups:
-Passing on proven goalies who signed for cheap cap hits: Turco(1.3M), Mason(1.85M), Ellis(1.5M), Biron(0.875M)
-Not actively attempting to upgrade the backup position (which was exemplified when he decided to name a backup as his starter)
-Essentially handing Leighton (a very unproven commoditiy) the starting job without any true competition


Cap **** ups:
Trading for Meszaros who has a hit of 4M for 4 more years
Trading for Walker who has a hit of 1.7M for 3 more years
Signing Shelley who has a hit of 1.1M for 3 more years
Spending above the cap and forcing self to trade Gagne for peanuts


Prospect pool **** ups:
Letting Kempe go back to Europe
Trading our only 2nd round pick for the 3 years
Do you want some whine with your cheese.

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Old
08-26-2010, 05:49 PM
  #60
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Internet people seem cry a lot instead of focusing on the game

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08-26-2010, 06:07 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
this isn't michael leighton's 2nd season. its his 8th. what else is there for him to learn or work on? he doesnt have some hidden, magical reserve of talent that will make him a legitimate starter. this isnt NHL10. holmgren can't just pump XP points into his stats and call it a day. throughout his career, leighton barely proved he could be a backup. he wins 16 regular season games, and 8 PO games(behind a great defensive team), and he suddenly becomes a real goalie?

don't you see how that just doesn't make any logical sense? thats not even a GOOD hot streak. look at craig anderson last year for a good hot streak. find one game that we won solely because of michael leighton. i dont think there's a single one.
How about playing on a team with the third highest scoring offense in the conference last season, which has more than a chance to improve, and an incredible defense that is probably the best in the league. You're right, his talent level isn't going to rise all of the sudden. But putting him on this team makes him a starting goalie because he doesn't have to do as much. You put him on, let's say the Rangers, and you are absolutely right. That would be disastrous. The Rangers would have close to no chance at making the playoffs. But the Flyers aren't the Rangers. The Flyers are one of the best teams in the League (on paper...obviously no games have been played yet so we will find out if this is true in a few months). Again, Look at Chris's posts about the goalie not making too much of a difference (I think they are in the Carter/Flames thread). That is the point that I have been trying to make, he just makes it far better than me. This is like beating a dead horse (on both sides of this argument). You all think he is terrible and the Flyers are stupid for having him. I think he will be fine in net and continue to win. The only way one of us will change our minds is by watching him play because it is obvious that my arguments aren't swaying you and yours aren't swaying me.

Also, I never said Leighton won us any games. All I said was that he played well enough for the team to win. And they did. And as to the fact that this isn't his second season, that is just ridiculous. Guys progress at all different levels. Some guys come right out of Juniors and play well. Some guys they have to go to the AHL for a few years. And other guys come out of nowhere to be late-bloomers. I'm not saying Leighton is Tim Thomas or anything like that, but it would not be ridiculous for a guy to be a fringe player for the first eight years, then become just an average player. If that is ridiculous, then there is no help for anyone playing in the minors and they might as well just quit right now because no one can improve. Ever.

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08-26-2010, 06:37 PM
  #62
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Was this thread really necessary? I was just starting to get excited for the season, regardless of our apparent screw-ups.
Yeah. Exactly.

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08-26-2010, 06:42 PM
  #63
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How about playing on a team with the third highest scoring offense in the conference last season, which has more than a chance to improve, and an incredible defense that is probably the best in the league. You're right, his talent level isn't going to rise all of the sudden. But putting him on this team makes him a starting goalie because he doesn't have to do as much. You put him on, let's say the Rangers, and you are absolutely right. That would be disastrous. The Rangers would have close to no chance at making the playoffs. But the Flyers aren't the Rangers. The Flyers are one of the best teams in the League (on paper...obviously no games have been played yet so we will find out if this is true in a few months). Again, Look at Chris's posts about the goalie not making too much of a difference (I think they are in the Carter/Flames thread). That is the point that I have been trying to make, he just makes it far better than me. This is like beating a dead horse (on both sides of this argument). You all think he is terrible and the Flyers are stupid for having him. I think he will be fine in net and continue to win. The only way one of us will change our minds is by watching him play because it is obvious that my arguments aren't swaying you and yours aren't swaying me.

Also, I never said Leighton won us any games. All I said was that he played well enough for the team to win. And they did. And as to the fact that this isn't his second season, that is just ridiculous. Guys progress at all different levels. Some guys come right out of Juniors and play well. Some guys they have to go to the AHL for a few years. And other guys come out of nowhere to be late-bloomers. I'm not saying Leighton is Tim Thomas or anything like that, but it would not be ridiculous for a guy to be a fringe player for the first eight years, then become just an average player. If that is ridiculous, then there is no help for anyone playing in the minors and they might as well just quit right now because no one can improve. Ever.
i am actually on board with you, and chris, that on a deep team, a goalies flaws can be concealed. if you have a crappy team, you need to rely on your goaltender more than if you are on a deep team. that is also my line of thinking. however, there is not a single team out there that is so good they can prevent the other team from getting a single shot through. when shots get through, the goalie has to be relied on. when leighton has faced offenses that get shots to him and really test him, he doesn't fare well for long.

i've never said he will ruin the regular season. i think its likely he will fatigue, and get worse as it goes on. we can still make it into the playoffs with him. unfortunately, once we are there, he can't be relied upon to make crucial saves against a great offense, and that's damning. being good enough to beat enough teams to make the playoffs is one thing; being good enough to bring a team a stanley cup is another. I do not trust him to beat a real offense in a 7 game series.

as far as player development...at the rate leighton's native athletic skills are developing, he will be around 60 before he's on par with other starting goaltenders around the league. maybe im being harsh, but i really haven't seen anything terribly impressive from him. i do not think he could ever be on par with someone like turco, skillwise. thankfully, he has size.

do the flyers need someone like miller or lundqvist to win a cup? absolutely not. but they need someone better than leighton, and there were several goalies available for nearly the same price.

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Old
08-26-2010, 07:00 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
i am actually on board with you, and chris, that on a deep team, a goalies flaws can be concealed. if you have a crappy team, you need to rely on your goaltender more than if you are on a deep team. that is also my line of thinking. however, there is not a single team out there that is so good they can prevent the other team from getting a single shot through. when shots get through, the goalie has to be relied on. when leighton has faced offenses that get shots to him and really test him, he doesn't fare well for long.

i've never said he will ruin the regular season. i think its likely he will fatigue, and get worse as it goes on. we can still make it into the playoffs with him. unfortunately, once we are there, he can't be relied upon to make crucial saves against a great offense, and that's damning. being good enough to beat enough teams to make the playoffs is one thing; being good enough to bring a team a stanley cup is another. I do not trust him to beat a real offense in a 7 game series.

as far as player development...at the rate leighton's native athletic skills are developing, he will be around 60 before he's on par with other starting goaltenders around the league. maybe im being harsh, but i really haven't seen anything terribly impressive from him. i do not think he could ever be on par with someone like turco, skillwise. thankfully, he has size.

do the flyers need someone like miller or lundqvist to win a cup? absolutely not. but they need someone better than leighton, and there were several goalies available for nearly the same price.
That's fair. I agree with a lot of that too. I don't really trust him as much in seven games vs. the Caps as I would against Montreal. I know he will get shredded. But where we differ is that I believe this Flyers team can conceal Leighton's weaknesses and bring home the Cup. Am I saying I think we will? That is a different story. I do think the Flyers CAN win a Cup with Leighton in net, but like everything else in sports with every other team, to win the Championship, everything has to go perfectly and fall into place at the right times.

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08-26-2010, 10:13 PM
  #65
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i can agree with that.however, with leighton or boosh in net for playoffs, i think homer is leaving more to chance than is necessary

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08-27-2010, 09:56 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
I have decided to compile and actively update a list (from those who reply to this thread with their own entries) of Homer's egregious **** ups this off season that we can point people who defense him to. This post is mainly for reference, certainly things can be discussed, but let's try to keep this from a debate over Homer's incompetence and rather just a list of proof of his incompetence.

I will list them in terms of position.

Forward **** ups:
-Passing on proven forwards who signed for cheap cap hits: Belanger(1.85M), Torres(1M)
-Not adaquately replacing Gagne's two-way presence in the forward corps
-Attempting to roll 3 scoring lines with 8 top 9 players (and a giant question mark in regular season Leino)
-Refusing to address the ongoing faceoff problem
-Feeling the need to ruin the best 4th line in the NHL to add a goon


Defense **** ups:
-Not giving Bartulis a fair chance of fighting for the 6th dman spot


Goalie **** ups:
-Passing on proven goalies who signed for cheap cap hits: Turco(1.3M), Mason(1.85M), Ellis(1.5M), Biron(0.875M)
-Not actively attempting to upgrade the backup position (which was exemplified when he decided to name a backup as his starter)
-Essentially handing Leighton (a very unproven commoditiy) the starting job without any true competition


Cap **** ups:
Trading for Meszaros who has a hit of 4M for 4 more years
Trading for Walker who has a hit of 1.7M for 3 more years
Signing Shelley who has a hit of 1.1M for 3 more years
Spending above the cap and forcing self to trade Gagne for peanuts


Prospect pool **** ups:
Letting Kempe go back to Europe
Trading our only 2nd round pick for the 3 years
Disaster list? You certainly have a knack for speaking in hyperbole, don't you? You certainly don't seem to have a whole lot of objectivity in your opinions.

1. Homer overpays for everything. It is unfortunate, but true. It's pretty obvious by now, the man has little understand of the terms "market value" and "salary cap". You are right in just about every comment you make about how he spends the money.

2. You pretty much ignore the fact that the defense (should be) better. You focus on the money, which is a problem, but ignore the assets acquired.

3. You mention losing Gagne's D upfront, but ignore the fact the Zherdev has scored more points in the last 3 years (on average) and with the improved D it shouldn't be a huge concern.

There's so much you ignore all for the fact of maintaining this whiny tone.

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08-27-2010, 11:05 AM
  #67
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Disaster list? You certainly have a knack for speaking in hyperbole, don't you? You certainly don't seem to have a whole lot of objectivity in your opinions.

1. Homer overpays for everything. It is unfortunate, but true. It's pretty obvious by now, the man has little understand of the terms "market value" and "salary cap". You are right in just about every comment you make about how he spends the money.

2. You pretty much ignore the fact that the defense (should be) better. You focus on the money, which is a problem, but ignore the assets acquired.

3. You mention losing Gagne's D upfront, but ignore the fact the Zherdev has scored more points in the last 3 years (on average) and with the improved D it shouldn't be a huge concern.

There's so much you ignore all for the fact of maintaining this whiny tone.
1. Indeed.

2. The defense should be better, yes. We have the best 3rd pairing in the league... which is just like having the best 4th line in the league (like we arguably did last year)... relatively useless.

You don't need two good defensemen to check the opponent's bottom 6 forwards... unless you have a goalie who less than a year ago had the worst team in the NHL attempting to put him in the AHL, of course.

3. The defensive impact that forwards make on the game is far too often glossed over. We have been lucky to watch Gagne-Richards match up against the Crosby's of the world. I am not looking forward to who we try to put on Richie's wings to match up against those types of threats next year.

I agree that Meszaros, in a vacuum was a good pick up (even if spending a 2nd rounder for a salary dump is right up there on the **** ups list) and I expect a good season from him. I also agree that signing Zherdev in a vacuum was the best low risk-high reward type signing this offseason for ANY team. However, these moves were not made in a vacuum; therefore, they cannot be viewed in one.

The entire point of this thread was merely to list his **** ups this offseason. As I have previously done, I invite Holmgren supporters to compile a list of his accomplishments this offseason for us all to discuss.


Last edited by agrudez*: 08-27-2010 at 11:11 AM.
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08-27-2010, 11:25 AM
  #68
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Disaster list? You certainly have a knack for speaking in hyperbole, don't you? You certainly don't seem to have a whole lot of objectivity in your opinions.
As far as hockey off-seasons go, this one has been a disaster.

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08-27-2010, 01:03 PM
  #69
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How is not signing Kempe a disaster? He was offered the standard ELC and rejected it in order to stay back home

Nothing Homer could do about it

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08-28-2010, 04:22 AM
  #70
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Guys you are just too negative.

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08-28-2010, 07:50 AM
  #71
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I will enjoy mine watching hockey and cheering on my team.
Hockey started again?When's the next game?

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Guys you are just too negative.
Being realistic=being negative nowadays.

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08-28-2010, 09:42 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Being realistic=being negative nowadays.
Not trying to get back into a big debate or anything, but I recall a lot of people saying the same thing last season and we all know what happened with that...

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08-28-2010, 10:20 AM
  #73
nuclear reactor
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I think having 8 top 6 forwards makes it worth only having 8 top 9 ones.

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08-28-2010, 08:10 PM
  #74
King Forsberg
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just sign Niemi or Theodore and Ill call this offseason a success.

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Old
08-28-2010, 08:36 PM
  #75
MsWoof
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timonen View Post
just sign Niemi or Theodore and Ill call this offseason a success.
It's funny that Niemi's name hasn't been mentioned anywhere lately. I wonder where he'll end up.

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