HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Bobby Ryan to the Blues

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-26-2010, 01:46 PM
  #76
Force951
Registered User
 
Force951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 2,419
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overkamp View Post
I don't need to reread anything.

I'm aware that he will be a much higher paid player after three years. See where I said: "that's why the Ducks want to lock him up long term for obvious reasons"

The obvious reasons meaning because he'll be much more affordable.

I also acknowledged in the same post that you quoted that I initally thought he was going to be an UFA after this year. I didn't realize, until someone corrected me, that there was a difference in his status for the next for the next four years..
In the post i quoted you said "Yes, I read that he wanted only a three year deal because he thinks he will be worth more as he will be a UFA (I wasn't aware that his status would be different from next year until after year three) and the Ducks want to lock him long term for obvious reasons.". Despite having multiple people in the thread say he will not be a UFA for 4 more years. So yes you do need to reread it to get it through.

Force951 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 01:47 PM
  #77
The Velvet Hammer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: leafville
Country: Canada
Posts: 937
vCash: 500
petriangelo + boyes ?

The Velvet Hammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 01:48 PM
  #78
Force951
Registered User
 
Force951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 2,419
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
What about a deal based around this? Perhaps either side/both sides would need to add something, but I think this would be a good foundation to start negotiations.


St. Louis sends:

Alex Pietrangelo
Brad Boyes


Anaheim sends:

Bobby Ryan
Jake Gardiner
No way in hell any ducks fan would do that. Gardiner and Pietrangelo aren't all that far apart in value. And the difference between Ryan and Boyes is huge so the ducks get ripped off big time.

Force951 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 01:48 PM
  #79
Static
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: SoCal
Country: United States
Posts: 18,560
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Static
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8BostonRocker24 View Post
1. IMO, The Ducks are the ones playing Hardball. I'm hearing 3 years $4.5 million per year. Seriously? How can anyone say that's a fair offer. Ryan > Kessel, and if he signs for less, Ryan is taking a discount.
If Ryan wants a short term such as that then he isnt going to get as much money. Murray doesnt want to have Perry/Ryan/Getzlaf all needing contracts in the same year, and if he is going to be backed into that corner he wants something to show for it. Ryan was already offered a 5/25 deal and didnt take it because of the length of term. Someone is going to have to accept the other's compromise.

Static is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 01:57 PM
  #80
The Grouch
Enraged
 
The Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 1,814
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Force951 View Post
No way in hell any ducks fan would do that. Gardiner and Pietrangelo aren't all that far apart in value. And the difference between Ryan and Boyes is huge so the ducks get ripped off big time.

The difference in value between Ryan and Pietrangelo is less than the difference between Boyes and Gardiner.

Ryan > Pietrangelo
Gardiner < Boyes

I think Prussian Blue was right that Ducks fans aren't going to accept Blues fans offers and vice versa. However this is a pretty fair foundation for a trade, as I said before perhaps either side would need to add something but saying "the ducks get ripped off big time" is extremely subjective.

The Grouch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 02:02 PM
  #81
Finnish your Czech
I love Olli Jokinen
 
Finnish your Czech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Finland
Posts: 45,828
vCash: 50
Ryan + Sbisa for Pietrangelo + Mcrae + 1st

sensical???

Finnish your Czech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 02:04 PM
  #82
Force951
Registered User
 
Force951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 2,419
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
The difference in value between Ryan and Pietrangelo is less than the difference between Boyes and Gardiner.

Ryan > Pietrangelo
Gardiner < Boyes

I think Prussian Blue was right that Ducks fans aren't going to accept Blues fans offers and vice versa. However this is a pretty fair foundation for a trade, as I said before perhaps either side would need to add something but saying "the ducks get ripped off big time" is extremely subjective.
Pietrangelo > Gardiner
Ryan >>>>>>Boyes

I Personally wouldn't trade Gardiner straight up for Pietrangelo but i am extremely high on him. So i know that most would so i give him slightly more value. But your comparisons are quite dumb. Rather then comparing the 1st round D prospects who haven't made it in the NHL yet and then the 2 NHL forwards. You insist on comparing a D prospect to an NHL forward twice.

Also all Duck fans would require it be Backes and not Boyes to even start talking about a Ryan for Pietrangelo switch and wouldn't throw in Gardiner for you.

Force951 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 02:05 PM
  #83
R0bert0 Lu0ng0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overkamp View Post
Boyes, Cole and 1st or 2nd are pennies on the dollar? Are you high?
Yes. There is one NHL asset in that deal and he is five years older, less of a two-way player, a physical non-factor and on top of it all doesn't produce as consistently as Ryan.

What if Cole doesn't pan out? What if the pick is towards the end of the first round?

Quote:
You are the exact reason why I shouldn't have started the thread.
Yes - people calling you out for crummy posts are a good reason why you shouldn't start threads like this.

Quote:
How about Johnson, Oshie, Backes and Boyes for Ryan? Fair enough?
No that's a ridiculous proposal - but hardly surprising considering that you are now pouting like an eight year old being put in time out.

I would say that Ryan and someone like Brendan Mikkelson for Roman Polak and either David Backes or Patrick Berglund would be a pretty fair trade.

If you want to offer futures for Ryan it has to start with a player like Pietrangelo.. drafter later than Ryan, projected to have a lower ceiling and has obviously proved less than him though, so I don't think the Ducks would be amenable to Pietrangelo on his own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
Maybe because his EL contract with the Ducks has expired?

Right now, he's no one's "property."

Oh, by the way, human beings stopped being the "property " of other people about 135 years ago. Look it up...
Wow, you're taking that a bit literally.

How about this - the Ducks have his rights for four more years because as long as he plays in the NHL during that period they will either have him under contract or will have had the opportunity to trade his rights to another team for some sort of compensation (either the compensation structured in the CBA for offer sheets, or Boyes, Cole and a 1st ).

R0bert0 Lu0ng0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 02:05 PM
  #84
Force951
Registered User
 
Force951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 2,419
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by leafs4stanley View Post
Ryan + Sbisa for Pietrangelo + Mcrae + 1st

sensical???
Go troll in a Kaberle for Ryan thread leafs fan.

Force951 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 02:13 PM
  #85
The Grouch
Enraged
 
The Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 1,814
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Force951 View Post
Pietrangelo > Gardiner
Ryan >>>>>>Boyes

I Personally wouldn't trade Gardiner straight up for Pietrangelo but i am extremely high on him. So i know that most would so i give him slightly more value. But your comparisons are quite dumb. Rather then comparing the 1st round D prospects who haven't made it in the NHL yet and then the 2 NHL forwards. You insist on comparing a D prospect to an NHL forward twice.

Also all Duck fans would require it be Backes and not Boyes to even start talking about a Ryan for Pietrangelo switch and wouldn't throw in Gardiner for you.

Before I thought it was a subjectivity now I understand it's rational capacity. I compared Ryan and Pietrangelo because they are the main pieces in the deal(the "untouchables") coming from each team. The fact that you "wouldn't trade Gardiner straight up for Pietrangelo" tells me everything I need to know about your ability to judge a players value.

The Grouch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 02:22 PM
  #86
Force951
Registered User
 
Force951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 2,419
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
The fact that you "wouldn't trade Gardiner straight up for Pietrangelo" tells me everything I need to know about your ability to judge a players value.
Why? Pietrangelo has 1st pairing potential and while he is a little closer to being NHL ready then Gardiner i prefer Gardiner's skill set. A guy who was drafted as an Offensive Dman who really needed to improve his defensive game since he was just transitioning over to D. He took the time to really learn the defensive side and showed that at worst he could make it as a top 4 shutdown D if for some reason his offensive game doesn't translate. He has definite top pairing potential and depending who you talk to has #1 dman potential.

Force951 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 02:58 PM
  #87
Finnish your Czech
I love Olli Jokinen
 
Finnish your Czech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Finland
Posts: 45,828
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Force951 View Post
Why? Pietrangelo has 1st pairing potential and while he is a little closer to being NHL ready then Gardiner i prefer Gardiner's skill set. A guy who was drafted as an Offensive Dman who really needed to improve his defensive game since he was just transitioning over to D. He took the time to really learn the defensive side and showed that at worst he could make it as a top 4 shutdown D if for some reason his offensive game doesn't translate. He has definite top pairing potential and depending who you talk to has #1 dman potential.
not only does pietrangelo have 1st pairing potential, he actually has Elite top 10 dman potential. Gardiner doesn't have this potential, and is less likely to reach his max potential.

Finnish your Czech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 04:50 PM
  #88
Ducks
Registered User
 
Ducks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Riverside, Calif.
Country: United States
Posts: 1,829
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by leafs4stanley View Post
not only does pietrangelo have 1st pairing potential, he actually has Elite top 10 dman potential. Gardiner doesn't have this potential, and is less likely to reach his max potential.
So many people underrate Gardiner. This is a guy who was drafted in the first round as a defenseman after only playing like a year or two of defense. He's since gone on to win gold at the WJC, and play on the top pairing for his team in the NCAA finals as a sophmore. I'm not saying he's worth more or as much as Pietrangelo, but he's certainly underrated on these boards.

Not for long though, most people who have watched him expect him to have a break out season this year and his value is going to skyrocket.

Ducks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 05:08 PM
  #89
Gibsons Finest
R-E-L-A-X
 
Gibsons Finest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Saskatoon/Brandon
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,470
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
The difference in value between Ryan and Pietrangelo is less than the difference between Boyes and Gardiner.

Ryan > Pietrangelo
Gardiner < Boyes

I think Prussian Blue was right that Ducks fans aren't going to accept Blues fans offers and vice versa. However this is a pretty fair foundation for a trade, as I said before perhaps either side would need to add something but saying "the ducks get ripped off big time" is extremely subjective.
I would never trade Gardiner for Boyes. I also find it funny that Boyes has great value despite being a terribly inconsistant and overpaid, yet Lupul has negative value due to a surgery complication and being overpaid. On a similar note, it's also funny that Ryan, who won't hit UFA for 4 years, has diminished value because he's currently unsigned(with a sticking point that probably isn't one for the Blues), yet David Backes doesn't despite being a UFA at the end of the season.

Pietrangelo+Backes isn't an overpayment in the slightest. Ryan, despite being 3 years younger and playing 114 less games, has scored the same amount of goals as Backes in their NHL careers. After factoring in the UFA status part of it, then he's absolutely much more valuable. Pietrangelo is a nice prospect, but that's all he is, and he also isn't nearly worth Ryan at this point. The value's close, but still needs some tweaking from an Anaheim perspective. Maybe those two and Brewer/Jackman for Ryan, Blake, Mikkelsson and a pick(2nd/3rd)? I know most Blues fans will think that's terrible, but that's to be expected, and that's probably the kind of deal it takes from a Ducks perspective.

Gibsons Finest is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 06:36 PM
  #90
Selanne138
Registered User
 
Selanne138's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,479
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by leafs4stanley View Post
Ryan + Sbisa for Pietrangelo + Mcrae + 1st

sensical???
by far the worst offer in this thread.

Ryan + Mitera

For

Backes + Pietrangelo +Mid Round Pick

Selanne138 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 06:38 PM
  #91
Celtic Note
Not in Ferguson
 
Celtic Note's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 8,971
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selanne138 View Post
by far the worst offer in this thread.

Ryan + Mitera

For

Backes + Pietrangelo +Mid Round Pick
Followed by the second worst.

Celtic Note is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 06:41 PM
  #92
Selanne138
Registered User
 
Selanne138's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,479
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
Followed by the second worst.
worse than Boyes + Cole and a 3rd? Yeah....

Yet another classic Bobby Ryan thread. We want your star young player, but you cant have any of our assets.

Selanne138 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 06:46 PM
  #93
Celtic Note
Not in Ferguson
 
Celtic Note's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 8,971
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by roddy View Post
Yes. There is one NHL asset in that deal and he is five years older, less of a two-way player, a physical non-factor and on top of it all doesn't produce as consistently as Ryan.

What if Cole doesn't pan out? What if the pick is towards the end of the first round?




Yes - people calling you out for crummy posts are a good reason why you shouldn't start threads like this.



No that's a ridiculous proposal - but hardly surprising considering that you are now pouting like an eight year old being put in time out.

I would say that Ryan and someone like Brendan Mikkelson for Roman Polak and either David Backes or Patrick Berglund would be a pretty fair trade.

If you want to offer futures for Ryan it has to start with a player like Pietrangelo.. drafter later than Ryan, projected to have a lower ceiling and has obviously proved less than him though, so I don't think the Ducks would be amenable to Pietrangelo on his own.



Wow, you're taking that a bit literally.

How about this - the Ducks have his rights for four more years because as long as he plays in the NHL during that period they will either have him under contract or will have had the opportunity to trade his rights to another team for some sort of compensation (either the compensation structured in the CBA for offer sheets, or Boyes, Cole and a 1st ).
Thats just the risk in any trade involving prospects and picks.

Devil's advocate...what happens if Ryan has injury problems in a year?

There is risk involved in any move.

Celtic Note is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 06:47 PM
  #94
Celtic Note
Not in Ferguson
 
Celtic Note's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 8,971
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selanne138 View Post
worse than Boyes + Cole and a 3rd? Yeah....

Yet another classic Bobby Ryan thread. We want your star young player, but you cant have any of our assets.
Thats probably equally as bad.

Yet another classic thread where fans of both teams value their assets more than the fans of the other team.

Celtic Note is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 06:53 PM
  #95
Selanne138
Registered User
 
Selanne138's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,479
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
Thats probably equally as bad.

Yet another classic thread where fans of both teams value their assets more than the fans of the other team.
another way to describe every bobby ryan thread. Always hard to make decent proposal when everyone is "untouchable" though.

IMO, Backes + Pietrangelo for Ryan + is a decent start. The + has to be more than Mitera that I offered though, but its not as bad as youre making it seem.

Selanne138 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 06:58 PM
  #96
nitz
Registered User
 
nitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Country: North Korea
Posts: 1,753
vCash: 500
It needs to be a sign and trade situation. Without a contract, his worth is... poop.

If he's signed, then St. Louis can expect to trade Johnson. Or at the very least, Pietrangelo.

nitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 07:01 PM
  #97
Hermit Wizard Eater
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,675
vCash: 500
Ryan to the Blues for Johnson.

Only thing that is fair

Hermit Wizard Eater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 07:06 PM
  #98
Celtic Note
Not in Ferguson
 
Celtic Note's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 8,971
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selanne138 View Post
another way to describe every bobby ryan thread. Always hard to make decent proposal when everyone is "untouchable" though.

IMO, Backes + Pietrangelo for Ryan + is a decent start. The + has to be more than Mitera that I offered though, but its not as bad as youre making it seem.
But you are looking at it from a Ducks perspective. See it from a Blues perspective and you will see it different.

My point is not that one perspective is right or wrong, but when making trades/proposals, you have to understand both perspectives.

From a Blues standpoint you loose the leader of the team in Backes, along with his near excellent defense and his physical presence. And while Ryan is the more skilled player, the Blues need more breakout ability and offense from the blueline, which Petro should provide, plus we loose Backes. Not only do we loose those elements, but we likely loose the better package in the process.

From a Ducks side I am not as familiar with your needs, but loosing a young player, with solid two-way play, some physicality and potentially great offensive scoring ability, for a player in Backes with less offensive upside and an unknown in Petro is scary.

Celtic Note is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 07:12 PM
  #99
Selanne138
Registered User
 
Selanne138's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,479
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
But you are looking at it from a Ducks perspective. See it from a Blues perspective and you will see it different.

My point is not that one perspective is right or wrong, but when making trades/proposals, you have to understand both perspectives.

From a Blues standpoint you loose the leader of the team in Backes, along with his near excellent defense and his physical presence. And while Ryan is the more skilled player, the Blues need more breakout ability and offense from the blueline, which Petro should provide, plus we loose Backes. Not only do we loose those elements, but we likely loose the better package in the process.

From a Ducks side I am not as familiar with your needs, but loosing a young player, with solid two-way play, some physicality and potentially great offensive scoring ability, for a player in Backes with less offensive upside and an unknown in Petro is scary.
i wouldnt do the trade from a Blues perspective either honestly, im just trying to give what I personally think is around fair value.

If i was St. Louis, i wouldnt be going after Ryan at all, you guys have a very good looking core for the future, and I would sacrifice the assets it would take to get Bobbym when you really dont need him.

Just my opinion though, Im not sure how Blues fans feel

Selanne138 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 07:13 PM
  #100
R0bert0 Lu0ng0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
Thats just the risk in any trade involving prospects and picks.
Yeah.. so why would the Ducks trade a great young player for them.

Quote:
Devil's advocate...what happens if Ryan has injury problems in a year?
Any player can get injured. Prospects and picks have another level of risk, in the form of the possibility that they never achieve their potential.

Ryan has demonstrated that he is well on his way to achieving that potential, and as such is far less risky.

Quote:
There is risk involved in any move.


The devil's advocate doesn't really have a leg to stand on. I might get hit by a bus next time I'm out, should I just stay at home forever?

There is risk involved in any move, but there are hugely varying degrees of risk.

Trading a budding NHL star who may suffer injuries for (in part) players who may not pan out to be NHL players, let alone NHL stars - and who may also suffer injuries - is taking on a large degree of additional risk.

It is sophistry or foolishness to pretend otherwise.

R0bert0 Lu0ng0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:59 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.