HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Lidstrom Vs. Potvin

View Poll Results: Better ATD Value (Peak and Career Value)
Lidstrom 56 60.87%
Potvin 36 39.13%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-26-2010, 03:02 PM
  #1
markrander87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,990
vCash: 500
Lidstrom Vs. Potvin

Who out of these powerhouse Defenseman have more career value?

EDIT: And yes I am aware It is Lidstrom, simple typo that is all folks. Carry on


Last edited by MiamiScreamingEagles: 08-30-2010 at 06:43 PM. Reason: Typo in title
markrander87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 03:03 PM
  #2
unknown33
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Europe
Country: Marshall Islands
Posts: 3,625
vCash: 500
That's even worse than 'Lindstrom'

unknown33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 03:04 PM
  #3
markrander87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,990
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
That's even worse than 'Lindstrom'
See above cornhole.

markrander87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 03:15 PM
  #4
mrhockey193195
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,648
vCash: 500
My personal preference is Potvin. I'm not trying to diminish Lidstrom's dominance of this past decade and all his accomplishments, but the fact remains that he won his Norris Trophies in a relatively weak era for defensemen (his best competition has been Pronger, Chara, Boyle, Gonchar, Zubov, etc.). Most of the dominant defenders of the 90s had retired or were past their prime by the time that Lidstrom started dominating the league.

Potvin, on the other hand, was competing against Park, Robinson, Savard, Lapointe, Salming, etc. Therefore, I don't like to just use the comparison of Lidstrom's six Norris Trophies to Potvin's three, or Lidstroms eight first-all-star teams versus Potvin's five. Awards don't tell the whole story.

Personally, I have Potvin as the 5th greatest defenseman of all time (behind the obvious top 4), and have Lidstrom, Robinson, and Kelly (in some order) in the 6th, 7th, and 8th spots.

mrhockey193195 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 03:28 PM
  #5
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
My personal preference is Potvin. I'm not trying to diminish Lidstrom's dominance of this past decade and all his accomplishments, but the fact remains that he won his Norris Trophies in a relatively weak era for defensemen (his best competition has been Pronger, Chara, Boyle, Gonchar, Zubov, etc.). Most of the dominant defenders of the 90s had retired or were past their prime by the time that Lidstrom started dominating the league.

Potvin, on the other hand, was competing against Park, Robinson, Savard, Lapointe, Salming, etc. Therefore, I don't like to just use the comparison of Lidstrom's six Norris Trophies to Potvin's three, or Lidstroms eight first-all-star teams versus Potvin's five. Awards don't tell the whole story.

Personally, I have Potvin as the 5th greatest defenseman of all time (behind the obvious top 4), and have Lidstrom, Robinson, and Kelly (in some order) in the 6th, 7th, and 8th spots.
But don't just look at defensemen then. Lidstrom is widely considered the best overall player of the past decade. Even by 2007 or 2008, many people would have considered him the best player of the decade that had just past if you took both regular season and playoffs into account. Who was he competing against for that titles? Brodeur, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg among others. Looks a hell of a lot better than just listing the defensemen.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-26-2010 at 03:37 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 03:33 PM
  #6
Reds4Life
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Czech Republic
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,563
vCash: 500
The weak competition argument is just pure BS. They played in different eras, and they do not compete only against defensemen, but against all the players. Fact is, Lidstrom was not just the best defenseman of the decade, he was the best player.

Reds4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 03:37 PM
  #7
markrander87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,990
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
But don't just look at defensemen then. Lidstrom is widely considered the best overall player of the past decade. Even by 2007 or 2008, many people would have considered him the best player of the decade that had just past if you took both regular season and playoffs into account. Who was he competing against for that titles? Brodeur, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg among others. Looks a hell of a lot better than just listing the defensemen.
So your answer is Lidstrom?

markrander87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 03:45 PM
  #8
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So your answer is Lidstrom?
I lean towards Potvin for peak, mainly because the majority of people who actually saw him play say he dominated the game to a greater extent than Lidstrom. Slight caveat though, in that it was easier to "look" dominant in that era when defensemen were much more involved in the rush than they have been since the mid 90s.

But I definitely take Lidstrom for career value by this point. In my opinion (which might be the minority still), he's a lot closer to Bourque than he is to Potvin and Kelly by now.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 03:45 PM
  #9
pluppe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 693
vCash: 500
if you value longevity at all I think it´s getting harder and harder to pick Potvin.

pluppe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 03:48 PM
  #10
markrander87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,990
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I lean towards Potvin for peak, mainly because the majority of people who actually saw him play say he dominated the game to a greater extent than Lidstrom. Slight caveat though, in that it was easier to "look" dominant in that era when defensemen were much more involved in the rush than they have been since the mid 90s.

But I definitely take Lidstrom for career value by this point. In my opinion (which might be the minority still), he's a lot closer to Bourque than he is to Potvin and Kelly by now.
Very Very interesting, the more I look into it the tighter it gets for me. So say in an ATD context who would you select first?

markrander87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 03:52 PM
  #11
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Very Very interesting, the more I look into it the tighter it gets for me. So say in an ATD context who would you select first?
You know, the guys at leafscentral do read this board, right?

I don't think Lidstrom has ever been picked before Potvin in a hfboards ATD, but personally, I would probably pick him first then enjoy ranting against anti-modern bias among hockey historians.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 04:11 PM
  #12
JackSlater
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,229
vCash: 500
I believe that Potvin at his best is better than Lidstrom at his best, but in terms of career value... I don't see how anyone could pick Potvin. Even if you think that Potvin's best seasons are better than Lidstrom's best seasons, Lidstrom has had several more elite seasons that Potvin has. He's also been far healthier. In terms of career value Lidstrom is much closer to Bourque than he is to Potvin, in my opinion at least.

JackSlater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 04:54 PM
  #13
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,201
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I lean towards Potvin for peak, mainly because the majority of people who actually saw him play say he dominated the game to a greater extent than Lidstrom. Slight caveat though, in that it was easier to "look" dominant in that era when defensemen were much more involved in the rush than they have been since the mid 90s.

But I definitely take Lidstrom for career value by this point. In my opinion (which might be the minority still), he's a lot closer to Bourque than he is to Potvin and Kelly by now.
I agree with you. Potvin probably did peak higher and added a physical game as well in comparison to Lidstrom.

Lidstrom has been so good for so long though the pickings for a case against him in career value are getting damn slim.

As an aside.. now that the trap has fallen out of favour a bit in the league do you guys think we'll see a return of rushing defensemen ala Mike Green?

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 04:56 PM
  #14
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I agree with you. Potvin probably did peak higher and added a physical game as well in comparison to Lidstrom.

Lidstrom has been so good for so long though the pickings for a case against him in career value are getting damn slim.

As an aside.. now that the trap has fallen out of favour a bit in the league do you guys think we'll see a return of rushing defensemen ala Mike Green?
You're going to need to see teams, or at least a team, have significant playoff success with a rushing defenseman for the league to go back that way, IMO. So far, Mike Green himself hasn't exactly provided the best model for success in the playoffs.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 05:14 PM
  #15
seventieslord
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,866
vCash: 500
I clung staunchly to Potvin as the #5 best defenseman of all-time, probably much longer than I should have. I think Lidstrom is narrowly but clearly ahead by this point. What he's been able to do, even at ages 38-40, is just incredible.

Gee, Mark, why do you ask?

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 05:27 PM
  #16
redbull
2k17
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,278
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I clung staunchly to Potvin as the #5 best defenseman of all-time, probably much longer than I should have. I think Lidstrom is narrowly but clearly ahead by this point. What he's been able to do, even at ages 38-40, is just incredible.

Gee, Mark, why do you ask?
Its potvin.

The beauty of lidtrom's game is that he's superbly efficient and mistake free and you don't notice him much.

The beauty of potvin's game is that he stood out on the ice at all times, in all zones.

Potvin 'broke down' faster because he player and competed harder than nik. Indisputable. Potvin played as well or better than nik offensively and defensively but added a dimension that nik did not. Mean, dirty, tough, physical and he was a much better leader than lidtrom.

Longevity matters, for sure, but not as much as sheer ability and output at their best.

Mike gartner is not better than nike bossy.

redbull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 05:34 PM
  #17
pluppe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 693
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Its potvin.

The beauty of lidtrom's game is that he's superbly efficient and mistake free and you don't notice him much.

The beauty of potvin's game is that he stood out on the ice at all times, in all zones.

Potvin 'broke down' faster because he player and competed harder than nik. Indisputable. Potvin played as well or better than nik offensively and defensively but added a dimension that nik did not. Mean, dirty, tough, physical and he was a much better leader than lidtrom.

Longevity matters, for sure, but not as much as sheer ability and output at their best.

Mike gartner is not better than nike bossy.
that is a ridiculous comparison.

tell me for what decade Mike Gartner was considered the greatest hockey player by anyone not related to him.

pluppe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 05:40 PM
  #18
seventieslord
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,866
vCash: 500
yes, redbull, I realize what you're saying but Gartner to Bossy is a terrible comparison. If Potvin has a peak edge, it's very, very little. Lidstrom's longevity edge over just about every defenseman, ever, has become too large to ignore, especially when you consider he certainly doesn't lack a peak, with 6 Norrises and three runner-ups.

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 05:41 PM
  #19
Reds4Life
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Czech Republic
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,563
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Its potvin.

The beauty of lidtrom's game is that he's superbly efficient and mistake free and you don't notice him much.

The beauty of potvin's game is that he stood out on the ice at all times, in all zones.

Potvin 'broke down' faster because he player and competed harder than nik. Indisputable. Potvin played as well or better than nik offensively and defensively but added a dimension that nik did not. Mean, dirty, tough, physical and he was a much better leader than lidtrom.

Longevity matters, for sure, but not as much as sheer ability and output at their best.

Mike gartner is not better than nike bossy.
Did you spill something on your keyboard? I mean WTF.
Anyways, dirty, mean, physical = more PIMs, so it is not all nice and dandy, you are not gonna help your team from penalty box.

Better leader? How come? How do you determine who is a better leader? Locker room speeches and hits are not everything. Potvin better defensively? No way. Offensively, yes, for sure. Still, peak is very close and overall career is easily Lidstrom.

Reds4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 05:55 PM
  #20
cupcrazyman
Chex Lemeneux
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Leafland
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,492
vCash: 500
Potvin.

cupcrazyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 06:14 PM
  #21
RabbinsDuck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Brighton, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,761
vCash: 500
Peak: Debateable. Potvin was better offensively, Lidstrom defensively. I happen to weigh defense from defensemen higher.

Prime and Career: Definitely Lidstrom

RabbinsDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 07:14 PM
  #22
Dissonance
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cabbage Patch
Posts: 1,388
vCash: 500
Potvin's peak looks shorter than it actually was. He was consistently either the best defenseman or, at worst, top 3 in the league from 1975-84. The main reasons he didn't win more Norris awards were injuries (in '80, '82, '83, all years he was the best defenseman around when healthy) and weird voter preferences (he was certainly better than Carlyle in '81 and arguably better than Langway in '84, although Bourque probably deserved it here).

If not for about 80 games worth of injuries, Potvin would've easily had ten straight all-star nominations, compared with 12 for Lidstrom. And, to be honest, I'm surprised he didn't get an all-star berth in '85—he was better than Wilson or Langway that year. Plus of course Potvin was always in full force when it mattered, in the playoffs.

Not to take anything away from Lidstrom, who did (and continues to do) amazing things for a ridiculously long amount of time. I just think the longevity gap is smaller than it looks at first glance.


Last edited by Dissonance: 08-26-2010 at 07:30 PM.
Dissonance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 07:30 PM
  #23
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,501
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I lean towards Potvin for peak, mainly because the majority of people who actually saw him play say he dominated the game to a greater extent than Lidstrom. Slight caveat though, in that it was easier to "look" dominant in that era when defensemen were much more involved in the rush than they have been since the mid 90s.

But I definitely take Lidstrom for career value by this point. In my opinion (which might be the minority still), he's a lot closer to Bourque than he is to Potvin and Kelly by now.
Very good post imo.
To me, Potvin was the best Dman behind Orr in his era and Lidstrom was the best behind Bourque in his era.
Potvin's peak over about a 3-4 year period was higher than what Bourque or Lidstrom reached but both Bourque and Lidstrom's peaks were like 10-12 years long which is both ridiculous and rare.

My personal top 10 all-time Dmen are
#1 Orr
#2 Harvey
#3 Shore
#4 Bourque
#5 Lidstrom
#6 Potvin
#7 Robinson
#8 Chelios
#9 Coffey
#10 Park

(I don't have Kelly listed in my top 10 for Dmen simply because quite frankly, it's not really known just how much he actually did at that position.)

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 07:40 PM
  #24
RabbinsDuck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Brighton, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Very good post imo.
To me, Potvin was the best Dman behind Orr in his era and Lidstrom was the best behind Bourque in his era.
Potvin's peak over about a 3-4 year period was higher than what Bourque or Lidstrom reached but both Bourque and Lidstrom's peaks were like 10-12 years long which is both ridiculous and rare.

My personal top 10 all-time Dmen are
#1 Orr
#2 Harvey
#3 Shore
#4 Bourque
#5 Lidstrom
#6 Potvin
#7 Robinson
#8 Chelios
#9 Coffey
#10 Park

(I don't have Kelly listed in my top 10 for Dmen simply because quite frankly, it's not really known just how much he actually did at that position.)
Kelly played 26 games as a forward in the 55-56 season, which was the only time he played for Detroit at that position other than to fill in for injuries for a couple games.

RabbinsDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2010, 07:47 PM
  #25
Briere Up There*
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Žďár nad Sázavo
Posts: 2,868
vCash: 500
Lidstrom IMO, but this let's be honest, he's the best player of the past decade by default. Stars like Forsberg, Jagr and Sakic faded after the first half (for the most part), while Crosby and Ovechkin only played the latter half.

Briere Up There* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:59 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.