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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Sakic vs Jagr

View Poll Results: well?
sakic prime and career 5 7.46%
sakic prime jagr career 0 0%
jagr prime and career 53 79.10%
jagr prime sakic career 9 13.43%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-27-2010, 01:50 PM
  #26
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by C For Choke View Post
Yeah but to me, team success is a big factor in judging a career and Sakic beats Jagr pretty handily in that department.
2 Cups and a gold medal each means that Sakic beats him pretty handily?

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08-27-2010, 01:58 PM
  #27
TheDevilMadeMe
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You could make an argument for Sakic's career, depending on how you define "career." I don't see any argument for Sakic's prime.

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08-27-2010, 02:00 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by IggyFan12 View Post
Easily Sakic for both not even close. Sakic won a Stanley Cup with out Forsberg(2001) while Jagr never won a Cup with out Mario. Jagr may have gotten more points but he always played in the wide open east, had Mario with him for a large part of his career, and sacrificed defence for offence. In 2001 in the Eastern Conference Finals the Devils held Jagr without a goal but Sakic lit up the Devils and won the Cup in 01. Points are not everything its just one way to measure success. Sakic was a much more complete player.
The "wide open East" comment is hilarious. The Devils and Flyers were both in Jagr's division for his entire prime.

Agree though that the Penguins themselves were the most offensive-minded team in the league for most of Jagr's time there, however.

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08-27-2010, 02:06 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by C For Choke View Post

Jagr in his prime was better, but Sakic's career was far better imo. Jagr's career was pretty much a whole lot of point scoring, but not a lot of winning after those first two Cups whereas Sakic and the Avs were one of the best teams in the league for a 7 or 8 year span.
Yeah, but we're voting on which player was better, not on which team was better.

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08-27-2010, 02:18 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You could make an argument for Sakic's career, depending on how you define "career." I don't see any argument for Sakic's prime.
Peak, maybe, but certainly not prime. That's Jagr's all the way.

Career-wise, I would lean Sakic. He had three playoff runs better than Jagr's best (1996, 1997, 2001), one being in the argument for best of the four-round era. Between that and the defense, I think it closes the gap. Can't fault Jagr for the Cups without Mario Lemieux any more than you can fault Sakic for the Cups without Patrick Roy.

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08-27-2010, 02:19 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by IggyFan12 View Post
In 2001 the Penguins had Jagr, Straka, Kovalev, Lang and Lemmieux. Thats more than enough offence for Jagr.
The Penguins went from 96 points to 69 points in 01/02 after Jagr left.
Mario and Straka missed most of the seasons.

The Avs on the other hand had no problems when Sakic missed 22 and 24 games in 99/00 and 02/03.

This is all adressing the whole 'Jagr couldn't win without Mario argument'.

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08-27-2010, 02:20 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by IggyFan12 View Post
Easily Sakic for both not even close. Sakic won a Stanley Cup with out Forsberg(2001) while Jagr never won a Cup with out Mario. Jagr may have gotten more points but he always played in the wide open east, had Mario with him for a large part of his career, and sacrificed defence for offence. In 2001 in the Eastern Conference Finals the Devils held Jagr without a goal but Sakic lit up the Devils and won the Cup in 01. Points are not everything its just one way to measure success. Sakic was a much more complete player.
Yeah, he won without Foppa but with this.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...006902001.html

When will people stop using this argument? It's really weak.

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08-27-2010, 02:42 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
The Penguins went from 96 points to 69 points in 01/02 after Jagr left.
Mario and Straka missed most of the seasons.
And Lang and Kovalev missed 20 and 15 games respectively as well. I mean, it wasn't just Jagr that caused a drop in 27 points- it was losing the rest of the previous year's top five scorers for significant time.

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08-27-2010, 02:53 PM
  #34
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When Jagr went to Washington a team that had made the playoffs and won the division the year before they missed it with him. The true measure of a player is what he brings to a team. Not only offense but defence and all around play as well. Jagr got more points that Sakic ya okay but what else? Did he have any defensive awarness? Leadership? Was he able to carry his team to a Cup? In 1996 Sakic carried the Avs to the Cup with his amazing playoffs and in 2002 Sakic had 4 points in the Gold Medal game to win the Gold for Canada their first in 50 years. Sakic is the only player to win the MVP of the NHL season, Playoffs and Olympics.

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08-27-2010, 02:57 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by IggyFan12 View Post
Sakic is the only player to win the MVP of the NHL season, Playoffs and Olympics.
That is a mighty impressive checklist, but a lot of it has to do with opportunity. Granted, Jagr has had that opportunity, a lot of players throughout history have not, making it such an exclusive club. That is why a guy like Toews- a good player, no doubt, but not yet a legend- is behind only Sakic in that regard: Opportunity.

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08-27-2010, 03:18 PM
  #36
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Hasek comes the closest as I think he won the MVP of the 1998 Olympics and he is a 2 time Hart Trophy winner. He is only missing the Con Smyth which he never recieved. Also Sakic is the only player since NHL's were allowed to compete in the Olympics to win the MVP the other 3 winners were goalies, and Sakic has a record 8 playoff Overtime goals, he is simply Clutch.

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08-27-2010, 03:24 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by IggyFan12 View Post
In 2001 the Penguins had Jagr, Straka, Kovalev, Lang and Lemmieux. Thats more than enough offence for Jagr.

The Avs had: Sakic, Drury, Tanguay, Hejduk and Forsberg except in the last 2 rounds.
Ok, now compare their defenses and goaltending. They are not even close. It takes a complete team to win in the playoffs, we've seen time and time again that one-dimensional teams do not cut it.

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08-27-2010, 03:26 PM
  #38
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Ok, now compare their defenses and goaltending. They are not even close. It takes a complete team to win in the playoffs, we've seen time and time again that one-dimensional teams do not cut it.
If one-dimensional teams do not cut it then why would you go with a one-dimensional player in Jagr?

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08-27-2010, 03:40 PM
  #39
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Because Jagr is THAT good offensively, that Sakic would have to be Bobby Clarke-like defensively to even have a chance in this poll.

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08-27-2010, 03:56 PM
  #40
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Would you rather have Kovalchuk or Toews?

Thats just a recent example of a complete player versus a offensive minded player. Jagr couldn't win the big game with out Mario. Sakic won without Forsberg.


Last edited by IggyFan12: 08-27-2010 at 04:04 PM.
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08-27-2010, 04:08 PM
  #41
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Prime pretty clearly goes to Jagr. Career is pretty close, but Jagr's strong final years with New York put him over the top in my eyes.

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08-27-2010, 04:45 PM
  #42
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Jagr was the more talented player, but Sakic was the better leader. Jagr in his prime, certainly, but considering all accomplishments over the course of his career, and due to the bias of living in Burnaby, I've gotta go with Joe.

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08-27-2010, 04:58 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IggyFan12 View Post
Would you rather have Kovalchuk or Toews?

Thats just a recent example of a complete player versus a offensive minded player.
Who would you rather have? Bobby Clarke or Mario Lemieux?

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Originally Posted by IggyFan12 View Post
Jagr couldn't win the big game with out Mario. Sakic won without Forsberg.
Yeah sure. Go to back to your cave.

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08-27-2010, 05:27 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
Who would you rather have? Bobby Clarke or Mario Lemieux?



Yeah sure. Go to back to your cave.
When the game got important you couldnt count on Jagr. He took to many nights off in the NHL and it seemed like he was only in it for the money. Case in point leaving the NHL to play in the KHL for more money (Probably to pay for his gambling debts), or turning his back on the Penguins and going to Washington. Sakic never turned his back on a team the way Jagr did and you knew Joe was gonna give you 100% everynight. If you were a player on a team who would you want leading you? Sakic one of the greatest classiest players in league history or Jagr a guy who had all the talent in the world but a heart the size of a tic-tac.

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08-27-2010, 05:29 PM
  #45
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Sakic is my favorite player and I'd rather have him on my team.

Jagr is better, prime and career.

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08-27-2010, 05:41 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by IggyFan12 View Post
When the game got important you couldnt count on Jagr. He took to many nights off in the NHL and it seemed like he was only in it for the money. Case in point leaving the NHL to play in the KHL for more money (Probably to pay for his gambling debts), or turning his back on the Penguins and going to Washington. Sakic never turned his back on a team the way Jagr did and you knew Joe was gonna give you 100% everynight. If you were a player on a team who would you want leading you? Sakic one of the greatest classiest players in league history or Jagr a guy who had all the talent in the world but a heart the size of a tic-tac.
Sounds like 'lazy European vs Good Ol Canadian Boy' stereotype ******** to me.

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08-27-2010, 05:51 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by IggyFan12 View Post
When the game got important you couldnt count on Jagr. He took to many nights off in the NHL and it seemed like he was only in it for the money. Case in point leaving the NHL to play in the KHL for more money (Probably to pay for his gambling debts), or turning his back on the Penguins and going to Washington. Sakic never turned his back on a team the way Jagr did and you knew Joe was gonna give you 100% everynight. If you were a player on a team who would you want leading you? Sakic one of the greatest classiest players in league history or Jagr a guy who had all the talent in the world but a heart the size of a tic-tac.
Lmao. I like sakic more than jagr too, but the turning his back on the team thing is hilarious. Sakic signed an offer sheet with the rangers that Colorado matched. Jagr was traded to washington because the pens couldn't afford to pay him. Jagr deserves to be criticiEd for lack of effort on the 2001 playoffs and then in Washington, but the abandoning his team for more money thing is ridiculous when sakic was willing to do the same thing.

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08-27-2010, 05:56 PM
  #48
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Lmao. I like sakic more than jagr too, but the turning his back on the team thing is hilarious. Sakic signed an offer sheet with the rangers that Colorado matched. Jagr was traded to washington because the pens couldn't afford to pay him. Jagr deserves to be criticiEd for lack of effort on the 2001 playoffs and then in Washington, but the abandoning his team for more money thing is ridiculous when sakic was willing to do the same thing.
I thought the reason Sakic signed that offer sheet was for the chance to play with Gretzky (his boyhood idol), not for money. I might be wrong, but I believe I saw it in an interview somewhere.

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08-27-2010, 05:57 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
And Lang and Kovalev missed 20 and 15 games respectively as well. I mean, it wasn't just Jagr that caused a drop in 27 points- it was losing the rest of the previous year's top five scorers for significant time.
They also got 66 games from Hedberg, instead of the 9 he played in 2001 after they ditched the Aubin/Snow platoon for an unproven AHL goalie in the final month of the season. They were never the same team again after 2001 and much of that is due to Jagr's absence. After making the playoffs for 11 straight seasons, they didn't come close again until making it in 2007. Mario went from 35 goals and 76 points in 43 games to 34 goals and 122 points in 91 games the next two seasons.

He was basically playing with one arm in the '01 ECF, having re-injured his shoulder in the playoffs and had missed two games in the previous series (but assisted on all three of their goals in game 7 OT win vs. Buffalo). They were no match for a very strong Devils team, but don't fault Jagr for gutting it out with one arm.

The Caps in '02 were an old team that still would have made the playoffs if Jagr wasn't injured for 13 games (3-8-2 w/o him). Most of their D-men were over 30, and the youngest of their top 3 forwards from '01 turned 34 during the '02 season. As it was, Jagr finished 5th in points and 3rd in PPG that season, while the Caps ended up 2 points from a playoffs spot (thanks in part to Theodore's late season Hart-winning heroics) with more wins than division-winning (and SCF finalist) Carolina.

Don't know how much better the Avs could have been with Jagr instead of Sakic, but almost certain Burnaby Joe would have had his hands full leading the '97-01 Pens to the playoffs every year. The goaltending and defensive differences between the Avs and Pens during those years is ridiculous. That doesn't diminish Sakic's accomplishments, but to pretend he would have been close to winning a cup on those late '90s Penguin teams is absurd.

Sakic was a great player, don't have a bad thing to say about him. While he may have been a better defensive player, Jagr's style of puck possession on offense often translates into effective defense. This is supported by his excellent plus-minus on mostly below average teams, while Sakic had rather unspectacular plus-minus on mostly above average teams.

Jagr was the clearly better player during their primes IMO. It's closer on a career basis, but still give Jagr the edge.

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08-27-2010, 06:01 PM
  #50
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Alright, I was sort of half-right.

http://www.denverpost.com/avalanche/ci_12806236

Quote:
On the day the offer-sheet news broke, Sakic said: "It's something I really didn't think about too much, but the offer came, and I'm pretty happy about it. I was stunned by the offer. . . . I know I'll be playing here in a place I love, or I'll be going to the great city of New York. I know I'll be going to training camp, and in one week I'll know where."

Sakic said one of the attractions about possibly going to New York would be playing with Wayne Gretzky, then on the verge of his second season with the Rangers.

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