HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Sakic vs Jagr

View Poll Results: well?
sakic prime and career 5 7.46%
sakic prime jagr career 0 0%
jagr prime and career 53 79.10%
jagr prime sakic career 9 13.43%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-27-2010, 06:33 PM
  #51
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,358
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Lmao. I like sakic more than jagr too, but the turning his back on the team thing is hilarious. Sakic signed an offer sheet with the rangers that Colorado matched. Jagr was traded to washington because the pens couldn't afford to pay him. Jagr deserves to be criticiEd for lack of effort on the 2001 playoffs and then in Washington, but the abandoning his team for more money thing is ridiculous when sakic was willing to do the same thing.
Jagr was playing with one arm in the '01 ECF, taking injections in his shoulder just to play at all. Jagr missed two games in previous series, and anyone who followed Jagr's career knows he did not miss games (esp. playoff, international or crucial regular season games) unless he was seriously injured.

As far as turning his back on the Rangers... glad you can see what a joke that statement is. The Rangers turned their back on Jagr. They didn't offer Nylander an extension before or during the '07 season, instead waited until Nylander (thanks in large part to Jagr) had led the '07 playoffs in PPG... at which point the Caps offered him a huge deal, which the Rangers were right not to match. They also didn't extend Jagr's contract before or during his final season, having already gone in a new direction... giving huge contracts to Gomez and Drury (Jagr had wanted them to try to retain Nylander and go after a quality defenseman). So after outplaying Crosby/Malkin in his final playoff series and leaving the playoffs as the current leader in the points, he went to Russia. He had already played in Russia when the NHL owners turned their back on the whole league and locked the players out in '04/05 and promised to return their before his career was over. So he could make much more money while playing fewer games and taking much less physical punishment, fulfilling his promise in doing so.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-27-2010, 06:37 PM
  #52
revolverjgw
Registered User
 
revolverjgw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,993
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggyFan12 View Post
If one-dimensional teams do not cut it then why would you go with a one-dimensional player in Jagr?
Because teams are made up of many different players with many different roles, pretty simple. They weren't putting out Jagr out to shut down the other team's stars, they had other players to do that. They were putting him out to produce offense, which he did as good as any forward not named Gretzky or Lemieux. Who were also one-dimensional.

revolverjgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 11:36 AM
  #53
ContrarianGoaltender
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 567
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggyFan12 View Post
If one-dimensional teams do not cut it then why would you go with a one-dimensional player in Jagr?
Maybe because of this:

Career plus/minus stats:

Regular season:
Jaromir Jagr: +275
Joe Sakic: +30

Playoffs:
Jaromir Jagr: +38
Joe Sakic: +2

Regardless of what labels you have learned to apply to players by watching Hockey Night in Canada, I don't see any argument that Sakic was a more effective hockey player than Jagr.

ContrarianGoaltender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 11:43 AM
  #54
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggyFan12 View Post
Easily Sakic for both not even close. Sakic won a Stanley Cup with out Forsberg(2001) while Jagr never won a Cup with out Mario. Jagr may have gotten more points but he always played in the wide open east, had Mario with him for a large part of his career, and sacrificed defence for offence. In 2001 in the Eastern Conference Finals the Devils held Jagr without a goal but Sakic lit up the Devils and won the Cup in 01. Points are not everything its just one way to measure success. Sakic was a much more complete player.
I thought this was a comparison of Sakic & Jagr?

Sakic didn't win a Cup, the Avs did.

Dennis Bonvie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 11:56 AM
  #55
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,857
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Center Shift View Post
Maybe because of this:

Career plus/minus stats:

Regular season:
Jaromir Jagr: +275
Joe Sakic: +30

Playoffs:
Jaromir Jagr: +38
Joe Sakic: +2

Regardless of what labels you have learned to apply to players by watching Hockey Night in Canada, I don't see any argument that Sakic was a more effective hockey player than Jagr.

Or maybe Jagr was playing against checking players who reduced his effectiveness (however didn't stop him totally) but also didn't score much.. meanwhile Sakic was generally matched up power on power.

+/- really is just a terrible stat individually in most cases.


Note: I voted Jagr.. but I honestly think their careers are close. Which doesn't show up in your stats at all.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 12:40 PM
  #56
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,196
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Or maybe Jagr was playing against checking players who reduced his effectiveness (however didn't stop him totally) but also didn't score much.. meanwhile Sakic was generally matched up power on power.

+/- really is just a terrible stat individually in most cases.


Note: I voted Jagr.. but I honestly think their careers are close. Which doesn't show up in your stats at all.
Not to mention the fact that Sakic spent all those years on an absolutely terrible Quebec team.

I'm really not sure what career +/- is supposed to show.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 01:36 PM
  #57
Up the Irons
Registered User
 
Up the Irons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,509
vCash: 480
Sakic is my all-time favourite non-Oiler. the kind of player i tried to be like, good offensively, but always back-checked and picked up his man.

but, I'm afraid, JJ was clearly better. Jagr is up there with Esposito, Hull, and Messier. Not top 5 all-time, but somewhere between 6 and 15.

Up the Irons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 02:12 PM
  #58
ContrarianGoaltender
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 567
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Not to mention the fact that Sakic spent all those years on an absolutely terrible Quebec team.

I'm really not sure what career +/- is supposed to show.
All it's supposed to show is that if you want to claim Sakic was the more effective two-way player, the burden of proof is definitely on you, given that Jagr and his teammates were outscoring their opponents by a much greater margin than Sakic and his teammates.

Sakic played some years on a terrible Quebec team, sure, but he also played most of his career on an amazing Avalanche team. It's likely there were some matchup differences between the two of them, but unless somebody produces some numbers I don't think it's anywhere near the gap that BraveCanadian suggests.

I think Jagr was a substantially better even strength player than Sakic and their plus/minus numbers reflect the gap between them, although I agree there are other variables that impact the results and the true difference is not nearly as large as the numbers suggest.

ContrarianGoaltender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 03:52 PM
  #59
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,058
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Center Shift View Post
All it's supposed to show is that if you want to claim Sakic was the more effective two-way player, the burden of proof is definitely on you, given that Jagr and his teammates were outscoring their opponents by a much greater margin than Sakic and his teammates.

Sakic played some years on a terrible Quebec team, sure, but he also played most of his career on an amazing Avalanche team. It's likely there were some matchup differences between the two of them, but unless somebody produces some numbers I don't think it's anywhere near the gap that BraveCanadian suggests.

I think Jagr was a substantially better even strength player than Sakic and their plus/minus numbers reflect the gap between them, although I agree there are other variables that impact the results and the true difference is not nearly as large as the numbers suggest.
I don't know what kind of numbers you're thinking of, but from my own observations and from hearing what hard core Avalanche fans have to say, Sakic would go up against the opposing team's top scoring line, while Forsberg would go up against their top checking line. (Obviously you can't always get the matchup you want, but this seems to be how it was most of the time)

For the record, I chose Jagr for both

Hawkey Town 18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 04:17 PM
  #60
Eisen
Registered User
 
Eisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Eugene
Country: Germany
Posts: 5,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Jagr was playing with one arm in the '01 ECF, taking injections in his shoulder just to play at all. Jagr missed two games in previous series, and anyone who followed Jagr's career knows he did not miss games (esp. playoff, international or crucial regular season games) unless he was seriously injured.

As far as turning his back on the Rangers... glad you can see what a joke that statement is. The Rangers turned their back on Jagr. They didn't offer Nylander an extension before or during the '07 season, instead waited until Nylander (thanks in large part to Jagr) had led the '07 playoffs in PPG... at which point the Caps offered him a huge deal, which the Rangers were right not to match. They also didn't extend Jagr's contract before or during his final season, having already gone in a new direction... giving huge contracts to Gomez and Drury (Jagr had wanted them to try to retain Nylander and go after a quality defenseman). So after outplaying Crosby/Malkin in his final playoff series and leaving the playoffs as the current leader in the points, he went to Russia. He had already played in Russia when the NHL owners turned their back on the whole league and locked the players out in '04/05 and promised to return their before his career was over. So he could make much more money while playing fewer games and taking much less physical punishment, fulfilling his promise in doing so.
Great post. I really thought that Euro-wussy image would have been refuted by now.

Eisen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 04:35 PM
  #61
seventieslord
Registered User
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,322
vCash: 500
career +/- doesn't tell us much... career adjusted +/- could, though. For example, there have been a number of what you would call one dimensional high-scoring forwards over the years who, with their defensive deficiencies accounted for, didn't have a great positive impact on their team's goal differential.

Jagr is what you would call one-dimensional, yet, as has already been astutely mentioned in this thread, his puck control style was a defensive tactic in itself. With a career adjusted +/- of +499, he's higher than anyone except Bourque and Orr. Per-season, he is behind only Orr, mark howe, Lindros, Forsberg, Bossy and Ovechkin (what do those last four have in common?)

Sakic's score is also excellent - +191, 56th post-expansion. That's great, but not at a Jagr level.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 04:55 PM
  #62
charliolemieux
No Lu-wiki Zone
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,475
vCash: 500
I think a closer argument might be Jagr v. Ovechkin.

Sakic is great and I cheered for him his whole carreer. HE comes close but he isn't on the same level as Jagr.

IF Gretz, Mario, and Orr are 10.0's

Sakic is a 9.0.

Ovechkin and Jagr are somewhere in between.

charliolemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 05:15 PM
  #63
seventieslord
Registered User
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
I think a closer argument might be Jagr v. Ovechkin.

Sakic is great and I cheered for him his whole carreer. HE comes close but he isn't on the same level as Jagr.

IF Gretz, Mario, and Orr are 10.0's

Sakic is a 9.0.

Ovechkin and Jagr are somewhere in between.
as long as that scale is exponential and not linear (i.e, a 10 is worth double what a 9 is)

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 05:51 PM
  #64
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,196
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Center Shift View Post
All it's supposed to show is that if you want to claim Sakic was the more effective two-way player, the burden of proof is definitely on you, given that Jagr and his teammates were outscoring their opponents by a much greater margin than Sakic and his teammates.
Watch a couple of games from about 2000. Burden solved. Seriously, I don't see how defensive ability could even be a question to anyone who watched these players.

Or just look at Sakic's Selke record.

(I voted Jagr for both, but come on).

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 10:05 PM
  #65
nik jr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Congo-Kinshasa
Posts: 10,525
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Watch a couple of games from about 2000. Burden solved. Seriously, I don't see how defensive ability could even be a question to anyone who watched these players.

Or just look at Sakic's Selke record.

(I voted Jagr for both, but come on).
sakic was clearly a much better defensive player, but that did not necessarily make him more effective. jagr's ability to control the play more than compensated for sakic's D, imo.

similar with forsberg, although forsberg was about as good as sakic defensively.

nik jr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 11:08 PM
  #66
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vulture77 View Post
I'd really like to vote Sakic more, but didn't.

Prime goes to Jagr by small but clear margin. I think Jagr was a kind of semi-generational talent, below the absolute best but ahead of Sakic who was more of a 'normal' superstar.

Career is closer but overall I think as Jagrs greatest success in lower scoring era, compared to Sakic who was in a bigger role earlier in his career when scoring was high, outweighs him there. So Jagr is my choice here as well. I don't think Sakics edge defensively is enough to offset 5 art rosses and 2 more pearsons.

Team success internationally and in NHL is quite even, can't give any bonuses to either one there.
To me this is a great quote to put Jagr as a "semi generational" player and sakic as a "normal" superstar.

It sums up the small difference in the 2 guys and puts it into context.

I was surprised, rather pleasantly, as the dominance of the results for Jagr in both prime and career.

Jagr's run from 95-01 is truly incredible and might not ever be repeated again as his worst season is 99 points (adjusted, and this was in his 63 game season still placing him 6th overall in league scoring) and he led the league in 5 of these 7 seasons as well in scoring.

Jagr also left for the KHL still as a serviceable player in 08 and still would be a good NHL player in the past 2 seasons had he played in the NHL.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 11:13 PM
  #67
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
as long as that scale is exponential and not linear (i.e, a 10 is worth double what a 9 is)
full agreement here, i think the original poster needs a larger scale of 100 when rankings guys to Gretzky and Lemiuex.

to use a scale like that Gretzky would be 100, Lemieux maybe 88-92ish and Sakic would be somewhere in the 40-60's.

This is where the average NHL player year after year is average to slightly above average but who needs another scale anyways eh?

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-28-2010, 11:25 PM
  #68
Briere Up There*
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Žďár nad Sázavo
Posts: 2,868
vCash: 500
You agree and then put Sakic at a 40, less than half the worth of Lemieux? Baffling. I'm almost certain you're just on here to pull legs.

Briere Up There* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2010, 07:16 AM
  #69
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,446
vCash: 500
1998 Olympics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
They also got 66 games from Hedberg, instead of the 9 he played in 2001 after they ditched the Aubin/Snow platoon for an unproven AHL goalie in the final month of the season. They were never the same team again after 2001 and much of that is due to Jagr's absence. After making the playoffs for 11 straight seasons, they didn't come close again until making it in 2007. Mario went from 35 goals and 76 points in 43 games to 34 goals and 122 points in 91 games the next two seasons.

He was basically playing with one arm in the '01 ECF, having re-injured his shoulder in the playoffs and had missed two games in the previous series (but assisted on all three of their goals in game 7 OT win vs. Buffalo). They were no match for a very strong Devils team, but don't fault Jagr for gutting it out with one arm.

The Caps in '02 were an old team that still would have made the playoffs if Jagr wasn't injured for 13 games (3-8-2 w/o him). Most of their D-men were over 30, and the youngest of their top 3 forwards from '01 turned 34 during the '02 season. As it was, Jagr finished 5th in points and 3rd in PPG that season, while the Caps ended up 2 points from a playoffs spot (thanks in part to Theodore's late season Hart-winning heroics) with more wins than division-winning (and SCF finalist) Carolina.

Don't know how much better the Avs could have been with Jagr instead of Sakic, but almost certain Burnaby Joe would have had his hands full leading the '97-01 Pens to the playoffs every year. The goaltending and defensive differences between the Avs and Pens during those years is ridiculous. That doesn't diminish Sakic's accomplishments, but to pretend he would have been close to winning a cup on those late '90s Penguin teams is absurd.

Sakic was a great player, don't have a bad thing to say about him. While he may have been a better defensive player, Jagr's style of puck possession on offense often translates into effective defense. This is supported by his excellent plus-minus on mostly below average teams, while Sakic had rather unspectacular plus-minus on mostly above average teams.

Jagr was the clearly better player during their primes IMO. It's closer on a career basis, but still give Jagr the edge.
1998 Olympics. Jagr bought into playing defense even though he still had his puck possession game and the Czech's were perceived as being offensively challenged.Czech team won the gold medal.

This is the basic issue, which contributed to the dissatisfaction with Jagr in the NHL. Simply Jaromir Jagr showed that he was not willing to make the same commitment to defense in the NHL even though the NHL team(s) were willing to commit significant money to him.

When a team, the coaches and players realize that a player is holding back or not willing to make the same commitment to all facets of the game as all other members of the team then the team starts to drift apart as a cohesive unit. On the other hand if the elite offensive player dedicates himself to the defensive responsibilities of his position the team becomes a better and more cohesive unit.

Jaromir Jagr is the one that created the situation - his play in the 1998 Olympics for the Czech national team featured a commitment to defense, that started the perception that he had a greater commitment to his national team than to his NHL team. That the NHL teams and followers realized this and evaluated him accordingly since that time is a direct consequence of his choice.

Conversely, a player like Joe Sakic never held back on either his NHL team or the Canadian National team, giving the maximum at all times in all facets of the game and is evaluated accordingly.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2010, 07:26 AM
  #70
tony d
The man
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,314
vCash: 500
Jagr for both.

tony d is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2010, 11:22 AM
  #71
Loto68
Registered User
 
Loto68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 853
vCash: 500
Jagr did make a commitment to improving his defense by the time the lock out ended.

Loto68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-29-2010, 01:56 PM
  #72
jcbio11
Registered User
 
jcbio11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bratislava
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 1,951
vCash: 500
Jagr both.

jcbio11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-30-2010, 11:49 AM
  #73
markrander87
Registered User
 
markrander87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggyFan12 View Post
When the game got important you couldnt count on Jagr. He took to many nights off in the NHL and it seemed like he was only in it for the money. Case in point leaving the NHL to play in the KHL for more money (Probably to pay for his gambling debts), or turning his back on the Penguins and going to Washington. Sakic never turned his back on a team the way Jagr did and you knew Joe was gonna give you 100% everynight. If you were a player on a team who would you want leading you? Sakic one of the greatest classiest players in league history or Jagr a guy who had all the talent in the world but a heart the size of a tic-tac.
FAIL

Most all-time overtime goals - 15

markrander87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-30-2010, 12:14 PM
  #74
bigsick
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: yk
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,032
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
FAIL

Most all-time overtime goals - 15
Have you read this thread? Iggyfan is a troll.

Anyways Jagr on both.

bigsick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-30-2010, 10:20 PM
  #75
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,628
vCash: 500
Sorry Burnaby Joe, one of my all-time favourites, but you weren't quite Jaromir Jagr. Give me Jagr for prime and career

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:41 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.