HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

72-79 WHA CALIBRE & effect on NHL

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-01-2010, 06:10 PM
  #76
justsomeguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 599
vCash: 500
Comparing the WHA more or less as a single entity to the top half of the NHL of that era certainly shows the upstart league as inferior but what happens when they're put up against the early Capitals, Seals, and the mighty Kansas City Scouts, all also bona-fide NHL teams at the time.

I was asked to speak to a number of folks involved in the WHA recently and the consensus was that, while it was sort of rough around the edges there was some good hockey played by some good players. Depth might have been another matter.

Most of them figured that the flagship franchises of the WHA -Jets, Aeros, Whalers- probably could have made the NHL playoffs in most years.

justsomeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2010, 08:08 PM
  #77
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 11,752
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Your quote from post #48 of this thread.

"Don Cherry has stated on more than one occasion that he felt the WHA was a "floaters league". I agree with that sentiment"

Statement by Don Cherry. Means all players in the WHA were floaters since Cherry did not qualify the statement with a some or most. You agree unconditionally since you did not qualify your agreement with a some or most qualifier either. Dave Keon played in the WHA therefore you agree that Dave Keon was a floater. Reasoning that could be extended to Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull and each WHA player.

Since you have not provided any evidence of the phantom ratio that you alluded to previously then your comments will be viewed accordingly - typical shallow attempts at bluffing your way through a discussion.
No fair playing dumb.

You know as well as I do what Don Cherry meant. Everyone in the league wasn't a floater, but the league certainly was a floater's delight. Making more (money) doing less was the appeal of the league.

And it was also a goon's delight. They had some real loonies.

Dennis Bonvie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2010, 08:22 PM
  #78
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,201
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post

Other interesting notes. 1973-79

#of 300+ goals allowed seasons. WHA - 38 teams / NHL 32 teams.
Goals allowed differential between the best team an the worst team.

WHA 1973-1979 95/126/94/151/142/84/45
NHL 1973-1979 163/178/265/220/139/142/144
OT but holy hell look at the difference between the top and bottom teams in the NHL during that time.

It was a very good time to be on a great team despite what many here say..

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2010, 09:28 PM
  #79
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Mike Walton playing in the CHL - pro with the Tulsa Oilers, Leaf's farm club while junior age in 1964-65 was second in the league in scoring, behind an NHL veteran Tom MCCarthy. That his career spiraled downwards because of life issues is another matter.
It was average at best in the NHL and spiked as soon as he hit the WHA facing inferior competition. All of the sudden Walton was much closer to being the best player in the WHA where as he was nowhere near that in the NHL. That's the reason.

"Shaky" is not the only player this happened to either, coincidentally

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2010, 09:31 PM
  #80
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
No fair playing dumb.

You know as well as I do what Don Cherry meant. Everyone in the league wasn't a floater, but the league certainly was a floater's delight. Making more (money) doing less was the appeal of the league.
Couldn't have said it better myself

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2010, 09:33 PM
  #81
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by matnor View Post
I'll add some numbers put into context. There were 24 skaters who played at least 20 games in the NHL each season leading up to the start of the WHA (70-72) and who also played at least 20 games in the WHA the following three seasons (73-75). Here is their average PPG during those six seasons compared with the average PPG in the NHL:



As can be seen, their PPG production doubles when they start playing in the WHA which clearly indicates a big difference between the leagues.

I also looked at the PPG production of those leaving the WHA. There were a total of 27 skaters who played at least 20 games each of the last three seasons in the WHA (77-79) and the following three seasons in the NHL (80-82). Here is how they performed:



There is a jump at this points too, but it is much smaller. This would suggest that the difference between the leagues got smaller over time though my knowledge of this is limited, I'm sure there are posters here that are better at explaining this than I am.

Below is a list of the players used:

Went to WHA 72/73:

Christian Bordeleau
Bryan Campbell
Wayne Carleton
Wayne Connelly
Jim Dorey
Norm Ferguson
Al Hamilton
Ted Hampson
Jim Harrison
Bobby Hull
Gary Jarrett
Jim Johnson
Eddie Joyal
Andre Lacroix
Danny Lawson
Rick Ley
John McKenzie
Gerry Pinder
Poul Popiel
Paul Shmyr
J.C. Tremblay
Bob Wall
Tommy Williams
Bob Woytowich

Went to NHL 79/80:

Paul Baxter
Brett Callighen
Real Cloutier
Robbie Ftorek
Al Hangsleben
Jamie Hislop
Dale Hoganson
Mark Howe
Dave Keon
Dave Langevin
Garry Lariviere
Barry Legge
Willy Lindstrom
Morris Lukowich
George Lyle
Blair MacDonald
Peter Marsh
Barry Melrose
Warren Miller
Rich Preston
Gordie Roberts
Mike Rogers
Terry Ruskowski
Paul Shmyr
Blaine Stoughton
Marc Tardif
Stan Weir
Interesting

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2010, 10:34 PM
  #82
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,944
vCash: 500
Nice Trick

Quote:
Originally Posted by matnor View Post
I'll add some numbers put into context. There were 24 skaters who played at least 20 games in the NHL each season leading up to the start of the WHA (70-72) and who also played at least 20 games in the WHA the following three seasons (73-75). Here is their average PPG during those six seasons compared with the average PPG in the NHL:



As can be seen, their PPG production doubles when they start playing in the WHA which clearly indicates a big difference between the leagues.

I also looked at the PPG production of those leaving the WHA. There were a total of 27 skaters who played at least 20 games each of the last three seasons in the WHA (77-79) and the following three seasons in the NHL (80-82). Here is how they performed:



There is a jump at this points too, but it is much smaller. This would suggest that the difference between the leagues got smaller over time though my knowledge of this is limited, I'm sure there are posters here that are better at explaining this than I am.

Below is a list of the players used:

Went to WHA 72/73:

Christian Bordeleau
Bryan Campbell
Wayne Carleton
Wayne Connelly
Jim Dorey
Norm Ferguson
Al Hamilton
Ted Hampson
Jim Harrison
Bobby Hull
Gary Jarrett
Jim Johnson
Eddie Joyal
Andre Lacroix
Danny Lawson
Rick Ley
John McKenzie
Gerry Pinder
Poul Popiel
Paul Shmyr
J.C. Tremblay
Bob Wall
Tommy Williams
Bob Woytowich

Went to NHL 79/80:

Paul Baxter
Brett Callighen
Real Cloutier
Robbie Ftorek
Al Hangsleben
Jamie Hislop
Dale Hoganson
Mark Howe
Dave Keon
Dave Langevin
Garry Lariviere
Barry Legge
Willy Lindstrom
Morris Lukowich
George Lyle
Blair MacDonald
Peter Marsh
Barry Melrose
Warren Miller
Rich Preston
Gordie Roberts
Mike Rogers
Terry Ruskowski
Paul Shmyr
Blaine Stoughton
Marc Tardif
Stan Weir
Okay - so you figured out a way to eliminate Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier, Rick Vaive, Mark Messier and others from the WHA to NHL group and produce a graph showing the results without the key players.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-01-2010, 11:31 PM
  #83
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,944
vCash: 500
1972-73 Bob MacMillan etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by matnor View Post
I'll add some numbers put into context. There were 24 skaters who played at least 20 games in the NHL each season leading up to the start of the WHA (70-72) and who also played at least 20 games in the WHA the following three seasons (73-75). Here is their average PPG during those six seasons compared with the average PPG in the NHL:



As can be seen, their PPG production doubles when they start playing in the WHA which clearly indicates a big difference between the leagues.

I also looked at the PPG production of those leaving the WHA. There were a total of 27 skaters who played at least 20 games each of the last three seasons in the WHA (77-79) and the following three seasons in the NHL (80-82). Here is how they performed:



There is a jump at this points too, but it is much smaller. This would suggest that the difference between the leagues got smaller over time though my knowledge of this is limited, I'm sure there are posters here that are better at explaining this than I am.

Below is a list of the players used:

Went to WHA 72/73:

Christian Bordeleau
Bryan Campbell
Wayne Carleton
Wayne Connelly
Jim Dorey
Norm Ferguson
Al Hamilton
Ted Hampson
Jim Harrison
Bobby Hull
Gary Jarrett
Jim Johnson
Eddie Joyal
Andre Lacroix
Danny Lawson
Rick Ley
John McKenzie
Gerry Pinder
Poul Popiel
Paul Shmyr
J.C. Tremblay
Bob Wall
Tommy Williams
Bob Woytowich


Went to NHL 79/80:

Paul Baxter
Brett Callighen
Real Cloutier
Robbie Ftorek
Al Hangsleben
Jamie Hislop
Dale Hoganson
Mark Howe
Dave Keon
Dave Langevin
Garry Lariviere
Barry Legge
Willy Lindstrom
Morris Lukowich
George Lyle
Blair MacDonald
Peter Marsh
Barry Melrose
Warren Miller
Rich Preston
Gordie Roberts
Mike Rogers
Terry Ruskowski
Paul Shmyr
Blaine Stoughton
Marc Tardif
Stan Weir
Effectively you also found a methodology to exclude the 1970-72 draft picks that went to the WHA. Example 1972 Rangers#1 Bob MacMillan who returned in time to score 108 points during the 1978-79 season with Atlanta, Key depth and support players on the top teams -Pleau, Sheehan, Caffery,Webster amongst others.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2010, 04:47 AM
  #84
matnor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Boston
Country: Sweden
Posts: 512
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Okay - so you figured out a way to eliminate Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier, Rick Vaive, Mark Messier and others from the WHA to NHL group and produce a graph showing the results without the key players.
First of all, I have already posted numbers including Gretzky, Messier and Vaive in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by matnor View Post
There were 87 players who played at least 20 games in the WHA in 78/79 and at least 20 games in the NHL in 79/80. The average ppg of those players were 0.594 in WHA and 0.469 in the NHL, 79% of the WHA production. The median ppg was 0.570 in the WHA and 0.404 in the NHL, 71% of the WHA production. So your number seems reasonable.
As you can see, the results were similar. Second, when doing this type of analysis it is crucial that you include several time periods before and after to see if the effect going from WHA to NHL was just a continuation of a trend amongst these players or if there was an actual jump. That will exclude some players but the alternative is definitely worse from a methodological point of view.

matnor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2010, 04:31 PM
  #85
pappyline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,303
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by matnor View Post
I'll add some numbers put into context. There were 24 skaters who played at least 20 games in the NHL each season leading up to the start of the WHA (70-72) and who also played at least 20 games in the WHA the following three seasons (73-75). Here is their average PPG during those six seasons compared with the average PPG in the NHL:



As can be seen, their PPG production doubles when they start playing in the WHA which clearly indicates a big difference between the leagues.

I also looked at the PPG production of those leaving the WHA. There were a total of 27 skaters who played at least 20 games each of the last three seasons in the WHA (77-79) and the following three seasons in the NHL (80-82). Here is how they performed:



There is a jump at this points too, but it is much smaller. This would suggest that the difference between the leagues got smaller over time though my knowledge of this is limited, I'm sure there are posters here that are better at explaining this than I am.

Below is a list of the players used:

Went to WHA 72/73:

Christian Bordeleau
Bryan Campbell
Wayne Carleton
Wayne Connelly
Jim Dorey
Norm Ferguson
Al Hamilton
Ted Hampson
Jim Harrison
Bobby Hull
Gary Jarrett
Jim Johnson
Eddie Joyal
Andre Lacroix
Danny Lawson
Rick Ley
John McKenzie
Gerry Pinder
Poul Popiel
Paul Shmyr
J.C. Tremblay
Bob Wall
Tommy Williams
Bob Woytowich

Went to NHL 79/80:

Paul Baxter
Brett Callighen
Real Cloutier
Robbie Ftorek
Al Hangsleben
Jamie Hislop
Dale Hoganson
Mark Howe
Dave Keon
Dave Langevin
Garry Lariviere
Barry Legge
Willy Lindstrom
Morris Lukowich
George Lyle
Blair MacDonald
Peter Marsh
Barry Melrose
Warren Miller
Rich Preston
Gordie Roberts
Mike Rogers
Terry Ruskowski
Paul Shmyr
Blaine Stoughton
Marc Tardif
Stan Weir
I am not a statistician so feel free to correct me if I am wrong but does it really make sense to compare PPG of 24 players to a the avg PPG of 350 players. One or 2 outliers in the group of 24 can sure skew the results. For example if in 73 you remove the top 2 guys which are Hull at 1.63 & Lacroix at 1.59 you start getting close to the NHL avg. PPG

pappyline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2010, 04:59 PM
  #86
matnor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Boston
Country: Sweden
Posts: 512
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I am not a statistician so feel free to correct me if I am wrong but does it really make sense to compare PPG of 24 players to a the avg PPG of 350 players. One or 2 outliers in the group of 24 can sure skew the results. For example if in 73 you remove the top 2 guys which are Hull at 1.63 & Lacroix at 1.59 you start getting close to the NHL avg. PPG
Well, the control group here is the problem. I did it really dirty and just assigned the entire NHL as control, that wouldn't fly in a rigorous statistical analysis since you would prefer to have a similar group of players as controls, probably assigned with some sort of matching method. But if I did that it would probably just confuse people.

Comparing 24 players to 350 players in itself is not a problem. However, the question of inference is key. What you would like to see is a confidence interval around the estimates.

As for the outliers, what you say is true. I would prefer using the median effect instead of the mean effect but for simplicity I chose the mean since that is what most people expect. Just to show that the effect is not driven by outliers here is the median graphs:





By the way, I did a small error in the first graphs where I included goaltenders as well. It didn't have much of an impact on the overall conclusion though.

matnor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2010, 05:16 PM
  #87
pappyline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,303
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by matnor View Post
Well, the control group here is the problem. I did it really dirty and just assigned the entire NHL as control, that wouldn't fly in a rigorous statistical analysis since you would prefer to have a similar group of players as controls, probably assigned with some sort of matching method. But if I did that it would probably just confuse people.

Comparing 24 players to 350 players in itself is not a problem. However, the question of inference is key. What you would like to see is a confidence interval around the estimates.

As for the outliers, what you say is true. I would prefer using the median effect instead of the mean effect but for simplicity I chose the mean since that is what most people expect. Just to show that the effect is not driven by outliers here is the median graphs:





By the way, I did a small error in the first graphs where I included goaltenders as well. It didn't have much of an impact on the overall conclusion though.
I agree that the control group is a problem. The 24 players need to be compared to a similar group of players for this exercise to have any meaning. The problem with taking a simpler approach to avoid confusing people is that people also draw conclusions regarding an analysis that may not be up too snuff.

If it is not too much trouble, i would like to see how you worked up your 72-73 numbers.

pappyline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2010, 06:16 PM
  #88
seventieslord
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,866
vCash: 500
I agree that these analyses that include the "average PPG" of the league are a little flawed - why not just use the league's GPG average and make adjustments from there?

I guess it just makes me uneasy thinking that you would look at a long list of players ranked by PPG for one season and taking the number in the middle and calling it the "average PPG" for the season.

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2010, 07:02 PM
  #89
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 11,752
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Okay - so you figured out a way to eliminate Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier, Rick Vaive, Mark Messier and others from the WHA to NHL group and produce a graph showing the results without the key players.
Its OK to count Messier twice.

I'm sure his 1 goal in 52 WHA games won't skew the numbers too much.

Dennis Bonvie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2010, 03:56 AM
  #90
matnor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Boston
Country: Sweden
Posts: 512
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I agree that these analyses that include the "average PPG" of the league are a little flawed - why not just use the league's GPG average and make adjustments from there?

I guess it just makes me uneasy thinking that you would look at a long list of players ranked by PPG for one season and taking the number in the middle and calling it the "average PPG" for the season.
Essentially what you're saying is that you would like the PPG to be weighted with games played? I agree that it would be preferable but the difference is in all likelihood negligible (since min 20 games was a requirement).


Last edited by matnor: 09-03-2010 at 04:01 AM.
matnor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2010, 04:00 AM
  #91
matnor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Boston
Country: Sweden
Posts: 512
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I agree that the control group is a problem. The 24 players need to be compared to a similar group of players for this exercise to have any meaning. The problem with taking a simpler approach to avoid confusing people is that people also draw conclusions regarding an analysis that may not be up too snuff.

If it is not too much trouble, i would like to see how you worked up your 72-73 numbers.
Well, the control group is not really that important here. There is no reason to believe that a comparable group in the NHL would see a rapid increase in scoring between 71/72 and 72/73 when the average scoring level in the NHL just rose slightly. A larger problem is the difference in scoring level between NHL and WHA. However, that is also an outcome which makes it problematic to just control for.

As for the numbers I just took the average ppg (or the median) for the players listed by season.

matnor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2010, 11:22 AM
  #92
seventieslord
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,866
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by matnor View Post
Essentially what you're saying is that you would like the PPG to be weighted with games played? I agree that it would be preferable but the difference is in all likelihood negligible (since min 20 games was a requirement).
I think it makes a lot more sense from a methodological standpoint, even if the difference in results would be negligible. And it's not like you have any reason to be misleading - players' stats generally went down in the NHL.

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2010, 12:52 PM
  #93
Mad Habber
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,719
vCash: 500
Reggie Houle stats
1970-71 Montreal Canadiens NHL 66 10 9 19
1971-72 Montreal Canadiens NHL 77 11 17 28
1972-73 Montreal Canadiens NHL 72 13 35 48
1973-74 Quebec Nordiques WHA 69 27 35 62
1974-75 Quebec Nordiques WHA 64 40 52 92
1975-76 Quebec Nordiques WHA 81 51 52 103
1976-77 Montreal Canadiens NHL 65 22 30 52
1977-78 Montreal Canadiens NHL 76 30 28 58
1978-79 Montreal Canadiens NHL 66 17 34 51
1979-80 Montreal Canadiens NHL 60 18 27 45
1980-81 Montreal Canadiens NHL 77 27 31 58
1981-82 Montreal Canadiens NHL 51 11 32 43
1982-83 Montreal Canadiens NHL 16 2 3 5 8

Very respectable stats at the NHL level, but 30 goals is a long way from 51. He was 26 years old the year he scored 51 and 28 when he scored 30. Still in his prime.

Marc Tardif
1970-71 Montreal Canadiens NHL 76 19 30 49
1971-72 Montreal Canadiens NHL 75 31 22 53
1972-73 Montreal Canadiens NHL 76 25 25 50
1973-74 Los Angeles Sharks WHA 75 40 30 70
1974-75 Michigan/Baltimore/Quebec WHA 76 50 39 89
1975-76 Quebec Nordiques WHA 81 71 77 148
1976-77 Quebec Nordiques WHA 62 49 60 109
1977-78 Quebec Nordiques WHA 78 65 89 154
1978-79 Quebec Nordiques WHA 74 41 55 96
1979-80 Quebec Nordiques NHL 58 33 35 68
1980-81 Quebec Nordiques NHL 63 23 31 54
1981-82 Quebec Nordiques NHL 75 39 31 70
1982-83 Quebec Nordiques NHL 76 21 31 52

Tardif on the other hand, even if you give him 75% of his WHA points, you get the following:
1973-74 Los Angeles Sharks WHA 75 30 23 53
1974-75 Michigan/Baltimore/Quebec WHA 76 38 29 67
1975-76 Quebec Nordiques WHA 81 53 58 111
1976-77 Quebec Nordiques WHA 62 37 45 82
1977-78 Quebec Nordiques WHA 78 49 67 116
1978-79 Quebec Nordiques WHA 74 31 41 72
Those are still star numbers. Better than Leach, Barber and Hodge. Almost as good as Sittler and Perreault. As good as Shutt. Had he stayed with the Habs, he would have played with Lemaire and Lafleur. And his numbers would be better than the adjusted 70%. BTW, Shutt would have played with Cournoyer and Mahovlich. Now that's a top 6.

Starslike Tardif, Hedberg, Nilsson would have remained stars. Guys like Houle, Chipperfield, Buchanen, Lawson etc, would have been marginal talents. Although some of these marginal would have been picked up by Washington and Kansas City in expansion drafts and trades and would have seen their ice time increased from 3rd liners on Montreal or other teams, to first or second liners on Washington and Kansas.

Then Wayne Gretzky could have gotten drafted by California. If Sam Pollock let them draft him.

Mad Habber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2010, 04:36 PM
  #94
matnor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Boston
Country: Sweden
Posts: 512
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I think it makes a lot more sense from a methodological standpoint, even if the difference in results would be negligible. And it's not like you have any reason to be misleading - players' stats generally went down in the NHL.
Yeah, I agree. The truth is I put together the graph very quickly and it was just easier from a programming perspective to do it that way. But if people are interested I could do it in a more thorough way.

matnor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2010, 02:27 PM
  #95
Peter9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 412
vCash: 500
Never mind graphs and statistical comparisons; I'd rather rely on my own observations--what I saw with my own eyes.

The WHA was far stronger than any minor league that had previously existed, albeit still quite a bit weaker than the NHL even considering the depletion of talent in the NHL that resulted from expansions and the WHA's formation.. Tardif would have been a star in the NHL had he stayed with the Canadiens. He spent only his first three seasons with the Canadiens before leaving for the WHA, and his scoring totals stand up to those of Guy Lafleur in his first three seasons in the NHL. Stardom on the Canadiens did not emerge immediately.

Expansions--there were more than one--plus the formation of the WHA had a huge impact on the quality of play in the NHL. In fact, it had a huge impact on the style of play in the NHL. The beautiful hockey of the 1950s and 1960s, which featured defensive skills that put a premium on brilliant offensive skills, disappeared. Hockey became a skate and shoot affair and, even worse, a shoot and skate affair. Defensive skills became obsolete. Great players like Orr and Lafleur--both great skaters--and Esposito--the supreme opportunist--took full advantage of the change in style of play, and the consequence was hugely inflated scoring figures.

i do not like what NHL hockey has become. There have been huge increases in the size of the players and the speed of the game. i would put strict limits on the size of goaltender equipment. I'd also like international size rinks. Then we might see some goals that come from brilliant play in open ice rather than goals that come from screens and deflections. Then we might see once again the beautiful hockey I loved to watch in the 1950s and 1960s. I realize that these are pipe dreams.

Peter9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2010, 05:44 PM
  #96
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,944
vCash: 500
Very True

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter9 View Post
Never mind graphs and statistical comparisons; I'd rather rely on my own observations--what I saw with my own eyes.

The WHA was far stronger than any minor league that had previously existed, albeit still quite a bit weaker than the NHL
even considering the depletion of talent in the NHL that resulted from expansions and the WHA's formation.. Tardif would have been a star in the NHL had he stayed with the Canadiens. He spent only his first three seasons with the Canadiens before leaving for the WHA, and his scoring totals stand up to those of Guy Lafleur in his first three seasons in the NHL. Stardom on the Canadiens did not emerge immediately.

Expansions--there were more than one--plus the formation of the WHA had a huge impact on the quality of play in the NHL. In fact, it had a huge impact on the style of play in the NHL. The beautiful hockey of the 1950s and 1960s, which featured defensive skills that put a premium on brilliant offensive skills, disappeared. Hockey became a skate and shoot affair and, even worse, a shoot and skate affair. Defensive skills became obsolete. Great players like Orr and Lafleur--both great skaters--and Esposito--the supreme opportunist--took full advantage of the change in style of play, and the consequence was hugely inflated scoring figures.

i do not like what NHL hockey has become. There have been huge increases in the size of the players and the speed of the game. i would put strict limits on the size of goaltender equipment. I'd also like international size rinks. Then we might see some goals that come from brilliant play in open ice rather than goals that come from screens and deflections. Then we might see once again the beautiful hockey I loved to watch in the 1950s and 1960s. I realize that these are pipe dreams.
True and accurate observations.The WHA effectively was created from a void - in fantasy league fashion. Teams had a few tendencies, Minnesota favoured American players, Quebec provincial players, Houston veteran minor leaguers, Winnipeg built around a superstar, New England around solid NHL ex-pats etc. Still thrown together very quickly without depth or plan B resulting in play that was better than AHL,WHL,EPHL but lacking the cohesion that teams had from having a core play together for years or the coaching and management.

The "shoot and skate" comment is interesting. Common phrase in minor(youth) hockey as the slapshot increased in popularity during the immediate pre 1967 expansion period. Defensive skills became less polished, with less emphasis on the player having a complete "defensive toolbox", the dumbing down had started.Today posters expound on the defensive skills of a Datsyuk or a Zetterberg. Yes they are skilled but the better O6 teams were three deep at each forward position with similarly skilled players while the average or weak O6 teams had their share.

Ironically the finds of the 1967 expansion were the defensemen seemingly buried in the minors - Dale Rolfe, Bill White and a few others.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2010, 02:51 AM
  #97
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Habber View Post
Reggie Houle stats
1970-71 Montreal Canadiens NHL 66 10 9 19
1971-72 Montreal Canadiens NHL 77 11 17 28
1972-73 Montreal Canadiens NHL 72 13 35 48
1973-74 Quebec Nordiques WHA 69 27 35 62
1974-75 Quebec Nordiques WHA 64 40 52 92
1975-76 Quebec Nordiques WHA 81 51 52 103
1976-77 Montreal Canadiens NHL 65 22 30 52
1977-78 Montreal Canadiens NHL 76 30 28 58
1978-79 Montreal Canadiens NHL 66 17 34 51
1979-80 Montreal Canadiens NHL 60 18 27 45
1980-81 Montreal Canadiens NHL 77 27 31 58
1981-82 Montreal Canadiens NHL 51 11 32 43
1982-83 Montreal Canadiens NHL 16 2 3 5 8

Very respectable stats at the NHL level, but 30 goals is a long way from 51. He was 26 years old the year he scored 51 and 28 when he scored 30. Still in his prime.

Marc Tardif
1970-71 Montreal Canadiens NHL 76 19 30 49
1971-72 Montreal Canadiens NHL 75 31 22 53
1972-73 Montreal Canadiens NHL 76 25 25 50
1973-74 Los Angeles Sharks WHA 75 40 30 70
1974-75 Michigan/Baltimore/Quebec WHA 76 50 39 89
1975-76 Quebec Nordiques WHA 81 71 77 148
1976-77 Quebec Nordiques WHA 62 49 60 109
1977-78 Quebec Nordiques WHA 78 65 89 154
1978-79 Quebec Nordiques WHA 74 41 55 96
1979-80 Quebec Nordiques NHL 58 33 35 68
1980-81 Quebec Nordiques NHL 63 23 31 54
1981-82 Quebec Nordiques NHL 75 39 31 70
1982-83 Quebec Nordiques NHL 76 21 31 52

Tardif on the other hand, even if you give him 75% of his WHA points, you get the following:
1973-74 Los Angeles Sharks WHA 75 30 23 53
1974-75 Michigan/Baltimore/Quebec WHA 76 38 29 67
1975-76 Quebec Nordiques WHA 81 53 58 111
1976-77 Quebec Nordiques WHA 62 37 45 82
1977-78 Quebec Nordiques WHA 78 49 67 116
1978-79 Quebec Nordiques WHA 74 31 41 72
Those are still star numbers. Better than Leach, Barber and Hodge. Almost as good as Sittler and Perreault. As good as Shutt. Had he stayed with the Habs, he would have played with Lemaire and Lafleur. And his numbers would be better than the adjusted 70%. BTW, Shutt would have played with Cournoyer and Mahovlich. Now that's a top 6.

Starslike Tardif, Hedberg, Nilsson would have remained stars. Guys like Houle, Chipperfield, Buchanen, Lawson etc, would have been marginal talents. Although some of these marginal would have been picked up by Washington and Kansas City in expansion drafts and trades and would have seen their ice time increased from 3rd liners on Montreal or other teams, to first or second liners on Washington and Kansas.

Then Wayne Gretzky could have gotten drafted by California. If Sam Pollock let them draft him.
Nice post. We'll never know what Tardif could have been like when slated against the best competition. I have a hard time thinking he'd have been a HHOFer anyways had he stayed in the NHL. He was 24 years old, which was old enough in the NHL to break out, and he didn't. But Tardif and Houle's career paths are a dime a dozen when comparing the players that bolted from the NHL to the WHA.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2010, 12:21 PM
  #98
Mad Habber
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Nice post. We'll never know what Tardif could have been like when slated against the best competition. I have a hard time thinking he'd have been a HHOFer anyways had he stayed in the NHL. He was 24 years old, which was old enough in the NHL to break out, and he didn't. But Tardif and Houle's career paths are a dime a dozen when comparing the players that bolted from the NHL to the WHA.
Well my point was that Tardif may still have been a star along the lines of Barber, Leach, Shutt. Houle would have remained a good enhancement talent as he was when he came back.

Most supertstars (Hull, Nilsson, Hedberg, Tardif) would have been stars in the NHL with a chance that one or two break into the superstar category, depending on utilization and linemates. I don't find it hard to believe that Tardif could have had superstar like numbers playing with Lafleur in Montreal but not in Quebec playing with...Serge Bernier?

HOF? That's a good one. Only the players that where superstars in the WHA and could have been stars in the NHL would have a chance. My first list of players essentially.

I don't count guys like Greztky, Messier, Vaive because their careers were essentially NHL careers with only their rookie seasons being in the WHA.

Morris Lukowich is a good example of a WHA star with 66 goals in a season I believe then came to the NHL still in his prime and basically was a 30 goal man. Support staff still has something to do with it. The formula of using 75% as comparison is good for the overall league, but for the individual, there are too many other factors involved.

Most WHA stars or semi-stars like Houle was, Chipperfield, Ron Ward, Danny Lawson, Serge Bernier would have been enhancement talent at best. Some may not even have made the NHL on a permanent basis because of their limitations defensively. Where were Chipperfield, Ward and Lawson after the merger, no where to be found after one season. Houle and Bernier stuck around although I believe Bernier ran into injury trouble.

Mad Habber is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:59 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.