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Old
08-30-2010, 03:18 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
So 6.2m+? I think that's kind of a given.

09-10: 4m
10-11: 8m
11-12: 8m
12-13: 6m
13-14: 5m

= 31m / 5 = 6.2m

If you mean 7.5, I think its quite possible, but I hope not.
That's what Heatley money is, 7.5.

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08-30-2010, 03:24 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Sharksfan1515 View Post
That's what Heatley money is, 7.5.
That's what his cap hit is, Sharks management is actually paying him a significant amount less.

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08-30-2010, 03:26 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
So 6.2m+? I think that's kind of a given.

09-10: 4m
10-11: 8m
11-12: 8m
12-13: 6m
13-14: 5m

= 31m / 5 = 6.2m

If you mean 7.5, I think its quite possible, but I hope not.
Yeah I meant $7.5.

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08-30-2010, 03:27 PM
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9
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5.8 cap hit

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08-30-2010, 03:34 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by shoot the puck View Post
...

After reading some of these posts, I think we're spoiled by how many points he consistantly puts up every year. He is someone that makes everyone around him a better player. That's why I don't know if having Marleau or Heater on his line is the best idea for him. Put a seto, couture or ferrari on his line and let him elevate their play.
I've had similar thoughts about using Thornton like that. If you provide him with decent line-mates THAT CAN SHOOT, you can spread the scoring out and make it difficult for the opposition to decide whose line to skate their top pairing against. I was thinking last year of skating ortz and manny (or others with a good shot) with him and try to put together essentially a top line with two #2 lines. That idea got bashed pretty hard. A big reason is that we really don't have a #2 playmaker. Pavs is as close as we get and, to me, though he can make plays, he's more of an all around player and his scoring touch is what makes passing lanes open up.

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08-30-2010, 03:34 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
sort of an aside, but there's something in the article that caught my attention:



It's funny McLellan says that. From our perspective it's always seemed that while the location is a great tool for retaining players, who love the region once they're there (except for one soulless ginger d-man ) it's always been harder to draw players from outside to San Jose because a lot of players seem to prefer big hockey markets in Canada and the northeastern US.
This isn't true. It's just that Doug Wilson doesn't like offering fair value to star calibre free agents. He prefers overpaying bottom line/bottom pairing players he already overpaid for in assets to get at the deadline in the first place.

Doug Wilson overvalues his own, and undervalues all the good free agents. Detroit, a struggling city, not really a dream destination for most, can sign whoever they want, because their GM knows what he's doing, offers fair money, describes a favorable role and favorable situation to the free agent so as to excite him about the prospect of coming to Detroit, etc. Doug Wilson has a nice place, a nice region of the world, the "#1 building in the NHL," (even though whenever I watch games on TV it's clear the Canadian buildings are much louder and even more energetic than the Shark tank), the worst, most un-intrusive media coverage, and thus the worst at getting us information, but that's another topic... Fans who give you a standing ovation for failing miserably... Really laid back, nice teammates like Thornton, etc, and top of the line tanning booths, all to offer the players. Suffice to say, I think he could get whatever free agent he wanted to. Whenever a player with a no-trade clause is getting traded, and they get to pick the team they want to go to out of their 5-10 other options, they always pick San Jose. So obviously, if Doug Wilson actually made fair offers to free agents, they'd probably pick San Jose over their other 5-10 options too. It's not that they won't come here, it's that Doug Wilson doesn't want them. He doesn't go after them. He signed Marleau to a 6.9 million cap hit contract when he could have gotten Kovalchuk for 6.7 mil cap hit, but he and ownership didn't want to pony up the extra front loaded cash for the better player.

Winning team? Check.
Nice Area? Check.
Passion at the hockey rink, peace away from it? Check.
Good teammates? Check.
Fans who will cheer you no matter how badly you perform? Check.
Ownership who lets Doug Wilson go after whoever he wants to, at least for < 10 year front loaded contracts? Check.
Sold out arena every night? Check.

Doug Wilson could sign whoever he wanted to if he knew anything about running a successful team. Championship teams use all the avenues available to them to improve their teams, not just the trade market. There's no reason the Sharks never land any big free agents except that Doug Wilson doesn't pursue them seriously.


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Old
08-30-2010, 03:37 PM
  #57
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They're paying him more, 8 mil per year, for the next two years, then 6 and 5 the next two years. 6.75 per year average until his contract runs out. 7.5 cap hit.

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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
That's what his cap hit is, Sharks management is actually paying him a significant amount less.

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08-30-2010, 03:38 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Sharksfan1515 View Post
He signed Marleau to a 6.9 million cap hit contract when he could have gotten Kovalchuk for 6.7 mil cap hit, but he and ownership didn't want to pony up the extra front loaded cash for the better player.
That's just dumb.

Kovalchuk is a free agent. NJ just submitted a new contract.

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08-30-2010, 03:38 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Sharksfan1515 View Post
They're paying him more, 8 mil per year, for the next two years, then 6 and 5 the next two years. 6.75 per year average until his contract runs out. 7.5 cap hit.
No, your information is bad.

the numbers I posted are correct. We paid him only 4m last year (half his salary), 8m for the next two seasons, then 6 and 5m. That is 6.2m average, that is the number the team cares about when it comes to negotiations., not the cap hit.

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08-30-2010, 03:51 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharksfan1515 View Post
This isn't true. It's just that Doug Wilson doesn't like offering fair value to star calibre free agents. He prefers overpaying bottom line/bottom pairing players he already overpaid for in assets to get at the deadline in the first place.

Doug Wilson overvalues his own, and undervalues all the good free agents. Detroit, a struggling city, not really a dream destination for most, can sign whoever they want, because their GM knows what he's doing, offers fair money, describes a favorable role and favorable situation to the free agent so as to excite him about the prospect of coming to Detroit, etc. Doug Wilson has a nice place, a nice region of the world, the "#1 building in the NHL," (even though whenever I watch games on TV it's clear the Canadian buildings are much louder and even more energetic than the Shark tank), the worst, most un-intrusive media coverage, and thus the worst at getting us information, but that's another topic... Fans who give you a standing ovation for failing miserably... Really laid back, nice teammates like Thornton, etc, and top of the line tanning booths, all to offer the players. Suffice to say, I think he could get whatever free agent he wanted to. Whenever a player with a no-trade clause is getting traded, and they get to pick the team they want to go to out of their 5-10 other options, they always pick San Jose. So obviously, if Doug Wilson actually made fair offers to free agents, they'd probably pick San Jose over their other 5-10 options too. It's not that they won't come here, it's that Doug Wilson doesn't want them. He doesn't go after them. He signed Marleau to a 6.9 million cap hit contract when he could have gotten Kovalchuk for 6.7 mil cap hit, but he and ownership didn't want to pony up the extra front loaded cash for the better player.

Winning team? Check.
Nice Area? Check.
Passion at the hockey rink, peace away from it? Check.
Good teammates? Check.
Fans who will cheer you no matter how badly you perform? Check.
Ownership who lets Doug Wilson go after whoever he wants to, at least for < 10 year front loaded contracts? Check.
Sold out arena every night? Check.

Doug Wilson could sign whoever he wanted to if he knew anything about running a successful team. Championship teams use all the avenues available to them to improve their teams, not just the trade market. There's no reason the Sharks never land any big free agents except that Doug Wilson doesn't pursue them seriously.
Pretty ridiculous post. Track record is fairly well established that DW offers FAs contracts just a little under what they end up signing for. Simple fact is, if we had such an advantage as you claim, more would sign those offers. Your claims just fly in the face of history and observable fact. I fault DW on his own research before he falls in love with players (fails to see reasons it won't work out, they won't re-sign, potential problems in various areas), but he does a reasonable job according to available media reports of making fair offers without overpaying. I'm not sure where your comment that ownership has let him offer whatever contract he wants to comes from, they have loosened the strings a bit in recent years, but either way I don't want him offering crazy contracts in any case.

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08-30-2010, 04:18 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
what's the point of having Thornton "recruite" if he cant get anyone here?

Brian Campbell (his childhood friend, also lived in his house) - Gone.
Rick Nash - never showed up.

Thornton fails at recruiting.
The quote wasn't about Thornton recruiting. It was about San Jose as a city/market being a boon to recruiting. And when was he ever recruiting Rick Nash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharksfan1515 View Post
This isn't true. It's just that Doug Wilson doesn't like offering fair value to star calibre free agents. He prefers overpaying bottom line/bottom pairing players he already overpaid for in assets to get at the deadline in the first place.

Doug Wilson overvalues his own, and undervalues all the good free agents. Detroit, a struggling city, not really a dream destination for most, can sign whoever they want, because their GM knows what he's doing, offers fair money, describes a favorable role and favorable situation to the free agent so as to excite him about the prospect of coming to Detroit, etc. Doug Wilson has a nice place, a nice region of the world, the "#1 building in the NHL," (even though whenever I watch games on TV it's clear the Canadian buildings are much louder and even more energetic than the Shark tank), the worst, most un-intrusive media coverage, and thus the worst at getting us information, but that's another topic... Fans who give you a standing ovation for failing miserably... Really laid back, nice teammates like Thornton, etc, and top of the line tanning booths, all to offer the players. Suffice to say, I think he could get whatever free agent he wanted to. Whenever a player with a no-trade clause is getting traded, and they get to pick the team they want to go to out of their 5-10 other options, they always pick San Jose. So obviously, if Doug Wilson actually made fair offers to free agents, they'd probably pick San Jose over their other 5-10 options too. It's not that they won't come here, it's that Doug Wilson doesn't want them. He doesn't go after them. He signed Marleau to a 6.9 million cap hit contract when he could have gotten Kovalchuk for 6.7 mil cap hit, but he and ownership didn't want to pony up the extra front loaded cash for the better player.
Show me where DW could've had Kovalchuk for 6.7? Also show me where you know that the reason the Sharks didn't get him was because of lack of willingness to spend on him. Also, calling Kovalchuk a better player is debatable. He certainly is a better goal-scorer than Marleau, but Marleau exhibits a far more well-rounded game which includes a concept very foreign to Kovalchuk: defense. IMO the drop-off in offensive ability between the two is more than made up for by Marleau's superiority in other facets of the game.

As for using the fact that players accept coming to SJ in trades, how many players aside from Heatley and Boyle have arrived via trade off of waiving an NTC? Did Thornton have an NTC at the time? I can't remember. And in the end it doesn't matter if they have SJ on their list of places they'd be willing to go if they don't go to the Sharks (speaking from the perspective of FAs where the destination is entirely up to the player and not a club trying to get a return on him).

Quote:
Doug Wilson could sign whoever he wanted to if he knew anything about running a successful team. Championship teams use all the avenues available to them to improve their teams, not just the trade market. There's no reason the Sharks never land any big free agents except that Doug Wilson doesn't pursue them seriously.
Again, provide me with evidence that supports this claim.

The Sharks offered Brian Campbell a competitive contract, and he instead chose to take the ridiculously overpaid deal from Chicago. They went after Scott Niedermayer with what was by all accounts a contract similar to what he took with the Ducks and Niedermayer chose Anaheim likely in part to play with his brother. I'm sure there's plenty that we've never heard about too.

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08-30-2010, 04:22 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Sharksfan1515 View Post
He signed Marleau to a 6.9 million cap hit contract when he could have gotten Kovalchuk for 6.7 mil cap hit, but he and ownership didn't want to pony up the extra front loaded cash for the better.
First of all, Kovalchuk would not have signed for 6.7, especially not here. Second of all, what? Pretty sure this was disussed before but I would rather take a speedy two-way forward over a one-trick pony who is subpar defnsively. Unless said pony is Ovechkin. Heck, even then I might hesitate if it meant losing another player due to his cap hit.
EDIT; Well, Nem pretty much got it down. Stupid slow iPhone typing.

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08-30-2010, 04:23 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
Show me where DW could've had Kovalchuk for 6.7? Also show me where you know that the reason the Sharks didn't get him was because of lack of willingness to spend on him. Also, calling Kovalchuk a better player is debatable. He certainly is a better goal-scorer than Marleau, but Marleau exhibits a far more well-rounded game which includes a concept very foreign to Kovalchuk: defense. IMO the drop-off in offensive ability between the two is more than made up for by Marleau's superiority in other facets of the game.
Plus he's clearly a toolbag that we wouldn't want anywhere near this team. I'm happy with Marleau thanks, a better all around player who loves this team.

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08-30-2010, 04:52 PM
  #64
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As for Thornton's contract, he'll get somewhere between 7 and 7.5 mil. It'll probably be his call again like it was last time. As for his "prime years", he is past it but he's still a hell of a hockey player. He has peaked but he'll still have a few great years in him but he won't have anymore MVP years.

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08-30-2010, 04:58 PM
  #65
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As for Thornton's contract, he'll get somewhere between 7 and 7.5 mil. It'll probably be his call again like it was last time. As for his "prime years", he is past it but he's still a hell of a hockey player. He has peaked but he'll still have a few great years in him but he won't have anymore MVP years.
I think he has more than just a few years in him. His playstyle isn't really one that drastically goes down due to age. I can see him following the numbers of Alfredsson if not a tad higher.

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08-30-2010, 05:01 PM
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When JT was a 115-125 pt player he signed for 7.2. We all thought it would be much closer to 8.5.

He is now an 85-95 pt player and it is likely he takes a discount if you ask me. I strongly doubt would have made those comments if he was going to sign a bigger contract.

I could see a contract in the 6 million dollar range. Hell Savard signed for Pavelski money.... You never know.

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08-30-2010, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
When JT was a 115-125 pt player he signed for 7.2. We all thought it would be much closer to 8.5.

He is now an 85-95 pt player and it is likely he takes a discount if you ask me. I strongly doubt would have made those comments if he was going to sign a bigger contract.

I could see a contract in the 6 million dollar range. Hell Savard signed for Pavelski money.... You never know.
Savard did not sign for Pavelski money, you dont seem to understand economics or something.

There is a 'minor' difference in the term there you might want to consider.

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08-30-2010, 05:06 PM
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I think he has more than just a few years in him. His playstyle isn't really one that drastically goes down due to age. I can see him following the numbers of Alfredsson if not a tad higher.
His play style, no. His speed is a different story. He doesn't have very many gears and eventually he will lose his top gear and once that happens, it's pretty much over for him. Guys like Marleau can lose their top gear as they get older and still be effective because they'll just come back to the pack. Thornton's speed, once he loses that gear, will be pretty poor.

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08-30-2010, 05:08 PM
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Thornton is scoring around 35 points less than he did 4 years ago. If you want to say he is still in his prime, take off the teal glasses. His defensive game may be a bit stronger, but his defensive game isn't worth 35 points. If he was in his prime, he'd still be scoring in the 120s, because that's what he did in his prime. He scored 125 points in his best year. He scored 86 and 89 points in the last 2 years. That's a 39 and 36 point decrease from his career year. That is regression right there. He's gotten better defensively, but he's not the same guy that he used to be. He's also regressed statistically every season with the Sharks besides this one. 125, 114, 96, 86, 89.

He's still a star player, top-20 in the NHL, but he's not that elite top-5 player he used to be.

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08-30-2010, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
When JT was a 115-125 pt player he signed for 7.2. We all thought it would be much closer to 8.5.

He is now an 85-95 pt player and it is likely he takes a discount if you ask me. I strongly doubt would have made those comments if he was going to sign a bigger contract.

I could see a contract in the 6 million dollar range. Hell Savard signed for Pavelski money.... You never know.
Savard's cap hit is near Pavelski's, but it's a 7-year contract that's frontloaded. Their contracts are nothing alike and shouldn't even be compared.

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08-30-2010, 05:09 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
I think he has more than just a few years in him. His playstyle isn't really one that drastically goes down due to age. I can see him following the numbers of Alfredsson if not a tad higher.
Mats Sundin as well. More so a similar type/styled/size player.

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08-30-2010, 05:09 PM
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He's getting at least Heatley $$
I agree, but hopefully not much beyond that.

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08-30-2010, 05:14 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by JPavs8Clutchy View Post
Thornton is scoring around 35 points less than he did 4 years ago. If you want to say he is still in his prime, take off the teal glasses. His defensive game may be a bit stronger, but his defensive game isn't worth 35 points. If he was in his prime, he'd still be scoring in the 120s, because that's what he did in his prime. He scored 125 points in his best year. He scored 86 and 89 points in the last 2 years. That's a 39 and 36 point decrease from his career year. That is regression right there. He's gotten better defensively, but he's not the same guy that he used to be. He's also regressed statistically every season with the Sharks besides this one. 125, 114, 96, 86, 89.

He's still a star player, top-20 in the NHL, but he's not that elite top-5 player he used to be.
I disagree, and I think this post summed it up nicely.

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Originally Posted by SharkyMcWoo View Post
For two reasons I disagree with that.

1) Thornton's game is not built around energy or speed, it's built on vision and finesse. I fail to see that being 27 or 31 makes much difference there so I would argue he's still in his prime for the role he plays with the Sharks.

2) He doesn't dominate games now in the way he used to, largely because he doesn't need to. When Thornton first joined and won the Art Ross our top 6 included Cheechoo (hindsight tells us Joe significantly boosted him), Marleau (who had a bust-out season), Ekman and a rookie Milan Michalek. He was the man! It's not worlds apart but now we have many 'star calibre' players as well as solid secondary production - additional weapons certainly helps relieve the load.

Thornton had 96 helpers in 2005/6, and 92 the following year. He's not topped 70 since and I believe it's as much about teams working out how to limit his game off the half boards, and a slight Shark philosophy shift in emphasis under Ron Wilson.

For what it's worth, I think he will have a very good year statistically this year.

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08-30-2010, 05:14 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
When JT was a 115-125 pt player he signed for 7.2. We all thought it would be much closer to 8.5.

He is now an 85-95 pt player and it is likely he takes a discount if you ask me. I strongly doubt would have made those comments if he was going to sign a bigger contract.

I could see a contract in the 6 million dollar range. Hell Savard signed for Pavelski money.... You never know.
When you said this, did you even look up the contracts, or just remember Savard's cap hit, and say that.

Savard's is a cap circumvention contract, and his salary is 7.0.

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08-30-2010, 05:22 PM
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I disagree, and I think this post summed it up nicely.
Yup.

Jpavs, you havent been watching hockey long so I dont think you would understand this. There is only one puck. When you have several highly skilled players you are going to have the puck less. When you have the puck less, you are going to get less points. JT back when he won MVP seemed like he had the puck pretty much every moment he was on the ice.

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